Should We All Submit to the Government?

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Romans 13 reads as follows:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and your will receive his approval, 4 for she is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, tan avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

How should Catholics interpret this? Has the Church interpreted this?
 
You raise an interesting issue.

But what happens when a government persecutes the Church?

There are so-called “revolutionary” governments.

For example.

There are two major revolutions going on right now.

One is the rise of secularism.

The other is the rise of Islam.

For the one, I suggest reading several things:

“Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XI on Atheistic Communism”

“Encyclical of Pope Pius X on the Doctrines of the Modernists”

“Fire in the Eyes of Men” by James Billington

“The Philosophy of Communism” by Charles McFadden

“None Dare Call It Treason” by John A. Stormer [and also his " , 25 Years Later".

“The Federalist Papers”

“The Declaration of Independence”

“The Constitution of the United States”.

For the other, start with any book by Robert Spencer.

And then read “The Koran” … but make sure you get an edition that is complete rather than abridged.

Also read up on the Battle of Lepanto [1571] and the Battle of Vienna and the Battle of Tours.
 
atheistic communism? ohhh brother…

how bout a real response!
 
Zekariya said:
We are to submit to the government so as long as the government doesn’t require us to sin against God.
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indeed. however, the OP raises an interesting question…what about the biblical quote? rulers are agents of God? REALLY!!!
 
datritle said:
indeed. however, the OP raises an interesting question…what about the biblical quote? rulers are agents of God? REALLY!!!
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Yeah, it’s problematic. Mao, Hitler and Stalin were agents of God? OK. I mean, Satan was an agent of God, too, so who knows… still, it doesn’t make you feel all that good about God.
At least it doesn’t make me feel good about Him, I don’t know about you.

This verse was probably written for practical purposes (i.e., if our religion obeys any government it finds itself dealing with, then it is more likely to flourish) or by someone who doesn’t believe in free will (thus all leaders would pre-ordained by God).
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
Yeah, it’s problematic. Mao, Hitler and Stalin were agents of God? OK. I mean, Satan was an agent of God, too, so who knows… still, it doesn’t make you feel all that good about God.
At least it doesn’t make me feel good about Him, I don’t know about you.

This verse was probably written for practical purposes (i.e., if our religion obeys any government it finds itself dealing with, then it is more likely to flourish) or by someone who doesn’t believe in free will (thus all leaders would pre-ordained by God).
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i am HOPING that this was an historical view, based on the fact that the tribes of Israel had kings, and as such, were agents of the one God. sigh…i hope.
 
The problem is that governments can do quite a lot which does not require a response, even tho it might bother or annoy us. When there is nothing we can do, we are not responsinle, and we should not attempt to subvert or act in a non-cooperative way. Yes, they may tax us too much, but we should still be honest and pay up, etc.

Why? Because it is better to have an ineptly-organized society than to have the chaos of people not cooperating.

However, it is true that sometimes we must resist the government, like when they require us to commit sins. And this is addressed in the section in the CCC: 2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

That sntire setion might be helpful to you to read,
 
The Israelites WANTED a king, so they could be like all the other “nations” in the region.

G*d, however, wanted them to continue being ruled by prophets.

But, they asked for it, so G*d gave them a system with kings … and that became their downfall.

It is unfortunate, but there is no substitute for doing the reading.

[The more you read, the more interesting you become.]
 
Here is the link to that section.

Part of the problem is that we himans forget that our lives are not supposed to be a bed of roses: the Church more often describes our earthly lives as a vale of tears, no? So sometimes we suffer because of the actions of others, bit we are to respond as Christ did, and offer our sufferings up rather than to forment a spirit of rebellion in ourselves and others when the damage that causes would outweigh the potential good.
 
St_Francis said:
Here is the link to that section.

Part of the problem is that we himans forget that our lives are not supposed to be a bed of roses: the Church more often describes our earthly lives as a vale of tears, no? So sometimes we suffer because of the actions of others, bit we are to respond as Christ did, and offer our sufferings up rather than to forment a spirit of rebellion in ourselves and others when the damage that causes would outweigh the potential good.
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But sometimes the potential good that would cause does outweight the potential suffering, yes?
 
Monte_RCMS said:
You raise an interesting issue.

But what happens when a government persecutes the Church?

There are so-called “revolutionary” governments.

For example.

There are two major revolutions going on right now.

One is the rise of secularism.

The other is the rise of Islam.

For the one, I suggest reading several things:

“Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XI on Atheistic Communism”

“Encyclical of Pope Pius X on the Doctrines of the Modernists”

“Fire in the Eyes of Men” by James Billington

“The Philosophy of Communism” by Charles McFadden

“None Dare Call It Treason” by John A. Stormer [and also his " , 25 Years Later".

“The Federalist Papers”

“The Declaration of Independence”

“The Constitution of the United States”.

For the other, start with any book by Robert Spencer.

And then read “The Koran” … but make sure you get an edition that is complete rather than abridged.

Also read up on the Battle of Lepanto [1571] and the Battle of Vienna and the Battle of Tours.
Click to expand...
Well, the government WAS persecuting the Church when Paul wrote that…so I think that answers your question.
 
St_Francis said:
The problem is that governments can do quite a lot which does not require a response, even tho it might bother or annoy us. When there is nothing we can do, we are not responsinle, and we should not attempt to subvert or act in a non-cooperative way. Yes, they may tax us too much, but we should still be honest and pay up, etc.

Why? Because it is better to have an ineptly-organized society than to have the chaos of people not cooperating.

However, it is true that sometimes we must resist the government, like when they require us to commit sins. And this is addressed in the section in the CCC: 2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

That sntire setion might be helpful to you to read,
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Thank you for this response as it directly addresses the Church’s position on this…but this can be read VERY VERY broadly. In fact, one could easily argue the American Revolution was against Paul’s requirement quite easily based on these requirements.
 
jinc1019 said:
Thank you for this response as it directly addresses the Church’s position on this…but this can be read VERY VERY broadly. In fact, one could easily argue the American Revolution was against Paul’s requirement quite easily based on these requirements.
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VeritasLuxMea said:
But sometimes the potential good that would cause does outweight the potential suffering, yes?
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Yes, you both make good points, and there are those who argue that the American Revolution was not just, and those who argue that those plots against Hitler’s life which included a plan for maintaining order afterwards was just.
 
VeritasLuxMea said:
But sometimes the potential good that would cause does outweight the potential suffering, yes?
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Very good question. And further…Put the suffering aside. Are rulers and kings ordained by God as this passage suggests?

Of all the passages in the New Testament, this one is the most difficult to accept…It really is. It goes against literally everything I believe and everything many Christians in the West have believed for many hundreds of years now. In fact, the American Revolution was conducted BASED on the idea that God supported it (see John Locke and Hobbes).

I was hoping someone would know of the Church’s response to this piece of the equation as well. Does the Church actually teach, as Paul does, that rulers (all rulers) are there because God put them there and we should do whatever they say and if they go against us, it’s our own fault because they are working for God?
 
datritle said:
indeed. however, the OP raises an interesting question…what about the biblical quote? rulers are agents of God? REALLY!!!
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Romans 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.

Authorities are placed by God. St Paul said this knowing that the authorities were persecuting the Christians. St Paul is actually confirming what Christ our God said:

John 19:11 Jesus answered [Pontius Pilate], “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
 
God’s laws come FIRST. His laws come out against murder, lying, cheating, stealing… Yet the current US government encourages murder (legalized child killing) and protects liars and cheaters (cough many politicians cough).

If the early Christians had submitted to the “government” would they still have been martyred for the faith?
 
jediliz said:
God’s laws come FIRST. His laws come out against murder, lying, cheating, stealing… Yet the current US government encourages murder (legalized child killing) and protects liars and cheaters (cough many politicians cough).

If the early Christians had submitted to the “government” would they still have been martyred for the faith?
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That is the point. We are to obey the government except when the government requires us to sin against God. 🙂
 
Zekariya said:
That is the point. We are to obey the government except when the government requires us to sin against God. 🙂
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So, theoretically, if every government required us to sin against God (e.g., murder), then would we have to disobey all governments?
 
datritle said:
indeed. however, the OP raises an interesting question…what about the biblical quote? rulers are agents of God? REALLY!!!
Click to expand...
For what it’s worth, Saint Katharine Drexel believed that civic laws are God’s laws and that we’re bound to obey it.

On the other hand, I don’t think Dorothy Day would have agreed.

This is a fascinating topic. Does Aquinas have anything to say about it?
 
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