I am sorry but it is not a misinterpretation. As I already stated, this was the interpretation for centuries in many parts of the world. You keep arguing that I am misinterpreting it but without showing me any proof that I am. Where in the New Testament does it say the opposite? That we have an obligation to rebel against unjust governments? Where does it say that in the New Testament? Nowhere.On the contrary, your statement that this “this passage clearly states . . . why government is NEVER evil or wrong” is the type of literalist interpretation is leads to false, erroneous conclusions and is contrary to Catholic Teaching about this. For proper exegesis we must take into account the foundational principals that are the underpinnings of proper understanding of Scripture. It is exactly the same erroneous misinterpretation as those who say Mary must have sinned because Romans 5:12 says all have sinned.
I’ve underlined the one of the key concepts above that is necessary for correct understanding.
There are actually number excellent articles on this subject at biblechristiansociety.com/home.php that may help you understand what causes that type of misinterpretation.
The whole concept of foundational principals as the basis for correct exegesis is clearly explained in the articles at BibleChristianSociety.com. It is such a clear explanation that I am at a loss to find anything that you might have disagreed with. What was there that you disagree with?Ignatius;10422889:
On the contrary, your statement that this “this passage clearly states . . . why government is NEVER evil or wrong” is the type of literalist interpretation is leads to false, erroneous conclusions and is contrary to Catholic Teaching about this. For proper exegesis we must take into account the foundational principals that are the underpinnings of proper understanding of Scripture. It is exactly the same erroneous misinterpretation as those who say Mary must have sinned because Romans 5:12 says all have sinned.jinc1019;10414886:
this passage clearly states the government is NEVER evil or wrong…that they exist ALWAYS as an agent of God…and that we are NEVER to disobey them.
I’ve underlined the one of the key concepts above that is necessary for correct understanding.
There are actually number excellent articles on this subject at biblechristiansociety.com/home.php that may help you understand what causes that type of misinterpretation.
You keep arguing that I am misinterpreting it but without showing me any proof that I am.
Again, I am not pretending it’s not there, I am saying that proper exegesis (from the Greek ἐξήγησις) requires taking the foundational principals I previously mentioned into account.I don’t agree with the passage at all, but you can’t pretend its not there.
Nothing you have quoted is from the Bible or authoritative source announcing that the plain meaning of this passage is incorrect. Until you do, there is nothing to respond to.The whole concept of foundational principals as the basis for correct exegesis is clearly explained in the articles at BibleChristianSociety.com. It is such a clear explanation that I am at a loss to find anything that you might have disagreed with. What was there that you disagree with?
The principal is that we must oppose evil. It is clearly explained in The Catechism of The Catholic Church, complete with scripture references.
If you have a problem with this or what is in the previous link, please post a link to that section in your reply so that I can have a look at it and we can discuss it further.
Again, I am not pretending it’s not there, I am saying that proper exegesis (from the Greek ἐξήγησις) requires taking the foundational principals I previously mentioned into account.
It is a serious misunderstanding to take an absolute literalist view of Rom 13 or Rom 5.
*The Catholic position is that The Catechism of The Catholic Church**, *is a "valid and legitimate instrument " and a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” as well as a “sure and authentic reference text”. (cf LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE Pope John Paul II)Nothing you have quoted is from the Bible. Until you do, there is nothing to respond to.
Again, if I am wrong…SHOW me where in the scriptures I am wrong. You can’t. You can only point to the Catholic teaching on this…and my whole point is that the Catholic position is wrong because it totally defies the traditionally use of this passage by the same Church as well as the plain and historical meaning of the text. Put Paul’s words into a historical context and you will find it makes sense…He wouldn’t want early Christians defying the government. He wouldn’t want them thinking they should fight against their respective rulers. Paul doesn’t want Christianity having a reputation of causing trouble in the empire. And remember, Paul is a Roman citizen…He wants a harmonious relationship where the Empire leaves the Church alone.*The Catholic position is that The Catechism of The Catholic Church**, *is a "valid and legitimate instrument " and a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” as well as a “sure and authentic reference text”. (cf LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE Pope John Paul II)
But, perhaps you are using some other biblical hermeneutic; if you’ll let us know what it is, we can investigate and perhaps we’ll see your side of it.
The Church has not only the Bible but Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. It is possible that the Church actually teaches what this Bible passage seems to be saying, but it is also possible that it does not. I’m not sure, just throwing this out there, for whatever it’s worth.Very good question. And further…Put the suffering aside. Are rulers and kings ordained by God as this passage suggests?
Of all the passages in the New Testament, this one is the most difficult to accept…It really is. It goes against literally everything I believe and everything many Christians in the West have believed for many hundreds of years now. In fact, the American Revolution was conducted BASED on the idea that God supported it (see John Locke and Hobbes).
I was hoping someone would know of the Church’s response to this piece of the equation as well. Does the Church actually teach, as Paul does, that rulers (all rulers) are there because God put them there and we should do whatever they say and if they go against us, it’s our own fault because they are working for God?
*, *is a "valid and legitimate instrument " and a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” as well as a “sure and authentic reference text”. (cf LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE Pope John Paul II)Ignatius;10427127 said:The Catholic position is that The
Catechism of The Catholic Church
But, perhaps you are using some other biblical hermeneutic; if you’ll let us know what it is, we can investigate and perhaps we’ll see your side of it.
Again, if I am wrong…SHOW me where in the scriptures I am wrong.
I don’t disagree with your method of interpreting the Bible, as you continue to insist. I agree we should take everything in context. It is entirely possible that you are right about interpreting this passage, but honestly, that would take a GREAT DEAL of mental gymnastics to get to your conclusion from that passage. I think it is ENTIRELY possible and likely that Paul meant what he said as guidance for his early Church, but that it applied to a specific period in time and to a specific set of people. I don’t think, however, one can reason that Paul really meant to include only the JUST government, because he clearly states that all governments are agents of God, not just the good ones. Nothing in any of the sources you cited, and I did read them, adequately addresses this point. In fact, the Bible Christian Society link doesn’t even mention Romans 13 at all.I did show you in scripture, back in a previous post I gave a link to the Bible Christian Society which gives a complete and thoroughgoing explanation complete with bible references for all of the points. In addition to that, Catechism of The Catholic Church, also gives the scripture references for all of the passages. It seems that you responed without reading them. I have again posted links to these to make it as easy as possible. The only thing I can think of that would possibly make it easier would be an Mp3 Audio . Please follow the links and you will see the biblical basis for all the hermineudic of Bible interpretation.
finally, I can continue to post references giving this, but unless you actually follow the links and study the material, I don’t see how you can understand what I am saying, much less present a reasonable counter argument.
It takes no gymnastics at all; it only consideration of the essential foundational principals found throughout the Bible. It will become much clearer when you read through the Bible cover to cover a few times. The principals then begin to become clearer.I agree we should take everything in context. It is entirely possible that you are right about interpreting this passage, but honestly, that would take a GREAT DEAL of mental gymnastics to get to your conclusion from that passage.
I think you are confusing two different arguments. I am not suggesting Paul says we must OBEY the government at all times. I agree that the Biblical principles you outlined suggest clearly we are called to disobey the government as Paul did at the Temple, for instance, in Acts…However, disobeying is not the same thing as REBELLING and this is where we diverge. You are making the two arguments synonymous, but they are clearly not so. The teaching in Romans 13 is designed to, in my opinion, address rebellions, not disobedience. Your arguments in the last post do not address this issue and this is the only issue I am pushing forward. Paul says we have an obligation to be disobedient when necessary; this is what Jesus meant when he said “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and render unto God what is God’s.” But, nowhere, implied or explicitly, does the New Testament suggest we have the authority to overthrow the government in a violent state of revolution, as we did during the American Revolution.It takes no gymnastics at all; it only consideration of the essential foundational principals found throughout the Bible. It will become much clearer when you read through the Bible cover to cover a few times. The principals then begin to become clearer.
Perhaps a more detailed explanation with some illustrations from other passages will help.
Paul certainly never suggest that God approves of a corrupt government, ungodly officials or unjust legislation. Sometimes, however, in punishment for their sins, or for other reasons known only to Him, God allows evil governments to have authority for a time. God grants authority to serve only good ends as in Rom 13:3-4.
In reference to Rom 13:2; Although obedience to earthly authority is the general rule, a clear biblical principle is that we may need to disobey government when it is unjust, for loyalty to God always takes priority over all human authority. We see examples of this in Esth. 4:16; Dan 3:12-18 and 6:16; Matt. 2:12, Acts 5:29; Heb 11:23
When should Christians disobey the government? (Acts 5:27-29)
When the State oversteps it’s rightful bounds, it has lost it’s mandate of authority from God. Then the Christians should feel justified in disobeying.
The Apostles defied the government authorities in Acts 5:27-29 and refused to obey because what they were being told was unjust. Whenever the State interferes with the rights of Christians or issues orders to do evil, God has commanded us not to do it. In these cses, we are on solid ground in disobeying the government. Blind obedience to the State is never right. No matter how difficult or costly it may be to us, we must reserve the right to say no to things that are oppressive or immoral.
Now proper biblical exegesis is based on sound hermeneudics. Up to now, you have only given your opinion with no supporting citations whatsoever. Please do a little scholarship on the subject and provide the basis that you use for your exegesis and provide some kind of citations to back up your contentions.
Actually, You didn’t mearly suggest it, you stated it outright. You said that Paul is saying we must “obey government NO MATTER WHAT”! That’s an exact quote from you. Here’s your postI am not suggesting Paul says we must OBEY the government at all times. .
You also said the Paul is saying that the government is “NEVER wrong” and that we can NEVER disobey them.is saying we must obey government NO MATTER WHAT, because the government is an actual agent of God doing God’s will.
Now, I provided the backup and principals on which sound biblical exegesis is based as you demanded. Then I requested you to provide backup citations and the principals that you yous to interpret the bible.Paul uses this passage to explain why government is NEVER wrong…and that we are NEVER to disobey them.