Should we attend a wedding?

[KCReba]

Any help would be most appreciated. Two young Catholics I know are getting married at the end of May. The problem is that they have come to “question” their faith in college and are now planning to marry in a Baptist church. I am quite certain that this marriage will not be considered valid in the eyes of the church. Should a practicing Catholic attend this wedding or would it be bearing witness to a marriage that is invalid and thus sinful? I’m concerned about being a witness, but also about shutting all doors to a future relationship in which the bride is still open to asking questions about the church. So confusing what to do…

 

[DavidFilmer]

The problem is that they have come to “question” their faith in college and are now planning to marry in a Baptist church. I am quite certain that this marriage will not be considered valid in the eyes of the church.

You are mistaken on this point. The Church presumes that ALL marriages are valid until shown otherwise (ie, before a formal marriage tribunal).

It would be especially so in this case, since both are Baptized and have (likely) received instruction on the nature of Matrimony (they attended CCD, right?). Usually, if a protestant marriage is found to be null, it is because the couple lacked the proper informed consent regarding the nature of the Sacrament. But this couple has probably been informed about marriage. True, they have (probably) not received the usual marriage instruction that the Church prescribes, but they are probably not ignorant of the more fundamental aspects (such as: divorce is a no-no).

FWIW, for Latin Rite Catholics, the minister of the Sacrament is not the guy in the robes, but actually the bride and groom, who mutually administer the Sacrament to each other. So, in the situation you describe, there is a strong case for valid matter, minister, intent, substance, and form - which means it could very well be (and probably would be) a perfectly valid Sacramental marriage (a Sacrament is valid if those five conditions are met).

(FWIW, the marriage would be “illicit,” because the rite was performed outside the prescribed norms of the Church, but it would still be Sacramentally valid if these five conditions were satisfied).

Should a practicing Catholic attend this wedding

In the olden (pre-V2) days, Catholics were prohibited from attending ANY non-Catholic religious service, because their presence might give the impression that the Catholic is supportive of a flawed belief system. These days, it is left to the individual to decide, so it is really up to you.

But, if I were you (being myself a traditionally-minded Catholic), I would go.

 

[1ke]

You are mistaken on this point. The Church presumes that ALL marriages are valid until shown otherwise (ie, before a formal marriage tribunal).

It would be especially so in this case, since both are Baptized and have (likely) received instruction on the nature of Matrimony (they attended CCD, right?). Usually, if a protestant marriage is found to be null, it is because the couple lacked the proper informed consent regarding the nature of the Sacrament. But this couple has probably been informed about marriage. True, they have (probably) not received the usual marriage instruction that the Church prescribes, but they are probably not ignorant of the more fundamental aspects (such as: divorce is a no-no).

FWIW, for Latin Rite Catholics, the minister of the Sacrament is not the guy in the robes, but actually the bride and groom, who mutually administer the Sacrament to each other. So, in the situation you describe, there is a strong case for valid matter, minister, intent, substance, and form - which means it could very well be (and probably would be) a perfectly valid Sacramental marriage (a Sacrament is valid if those five conditions are met).

(FWIW, the marriage would be “illicit,” because the rite was performed outside the prescribed norms of the Church, but it would still be Sacramentally valid if these five conditions were satisfied).

This is 100% not true.

These are not protestants attempting marriage. These are Catholics. They are bound by canon law to contract marriage in the Catholic form. There is **no **presumption of validity when two Catholic attempt to marry outside the Catholic form. Furthermore, the marriage is not valid but illicit, it is invalid:

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses

In the olden (pre-V2) days, Catholics were prohibited from attending ANY non-Catholic religious service, because their presence might give the impression that the Catholic is supportive of a flawed belief system. These days, it is left to the individual to decide, so it is really up to you.

You seem to have confused the facts. This is not a non-Catholic religious service. This is two Catholics who are defecting from the faith and inviting another Catholic to witness their invalid attempt at marriage.

A Catholic cannot in good conscience be witness to such. If they want to be supportive of the relationship in hopes of convincing them of their error, then my suggestion would be to attend the reception.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This is 100% not true.

You seem to have confused the facts. This is not a non-Catholic religious service. This is two Catholics who are defecting from the faith and inviting another Catholic to witness their invalid attempt at marriage.

A Catholic cannot in good conscience be witness to such. If they want to be supportive of the relationship in hopes of convincing them of their error, then my suggestion would be to attend the reception.

But I would be sure to explain to them in a loving way why you would not attend. They may not know that they need a dispensation. I SURE wish someone had explained it to me… all those years ago…

 

[1ke]

They may not know that they need a dispensation.

A Catholic marrying a non-Catholic can receive a dispensation from form to marry in the non-Catholic’s church or civilly.

Canon law does not provide for the dispensation of form for two Catholics marrying each other, except as specified in canon and (which give direction when a priest, deacon, or delegated lay person is not available, in which case the marriage can be contracted in front of witnesses only, but this is only in danger of death or if the appointed official of the Church will be unavailable for more than a month and no other can be found) In other words, we are talking situations like mission territory where priests only come around every few months or so and there’s no priest for hundreds of miles.

Other than the extreme circumstances provided for in Canons 1116, two Catholics marrying each other are bound by canonical form.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Any help would be most appreciated. Two young Catholics I know are getting married at the end of May. The problem is that they have come to “question” their faith in college and are now planning to marry in a Baptist church. I am quite certain that this marriage will not be considered valid in the eyes of the church. Should a practicing Catholic attend this wedding or would it be bearing witness to a marriage that is invalid and thus sinful? I’m concerned about being a witness, but also about shutting all doors to a future relationship in which the bride is still open to asking questions about the church. So confusing what to do…

Are you invited to the bridal shower? Gift idea: Get them a one hour pre-paid visit from an apologist that will see them face to face and challenge their new beliefs.

 

[Nita]

Any help would be most appreciated. Two young Catholics I know are getting married at the end of May. The problem is that they have come to “question” their faith in college and are now planning to marry in a Baptist church. I am quite certain that this marriage will not be considered valid in the eyes of the church. Should a practicing Catholic attend this wedding or would it be bearing witness to a marriage that is invalid and thus sinful? I’m concerned about being a witness, but also about shutting all doors to a future relationship in which the bride is still open to asking questions about the church. So confusing what to do…

I would suggest going to a good priest and asking him. If that is not possible, why don’t you post your question on the CAF “Ask An Apologist” forum ( forums.catholic-questions.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4 ).

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

A Catholic marrying a non-Catholic can receive a dispensation from form to marry in the non-Catholic’s church or civilly.

Canon law does not provide for the dispensation of form for two Catholics marrying each other, except as specified in canon and (which give direction when a priest, deacon, or delegated lay person is not available, in which case the marriage can be contracted in front of witnesses only, but this is only in danger of death or if the appointed official of the Church will be unavailable for more than a month and no other can be found) In other words, we are talking situations like mission territory where priests only come around every few months or so and there’s no priest for hundreds of miles.

Other than the extreme circumstances provided for in Canons 1116, two Catholics marrying each other are bound by canonical form.

Ok-I stand corrected…but I would still tell them! My dad refused to walk me down the aisle…but didn’t tell me why… Of course he never saw to my religious education either–during my parents divorce and when I was in the foster home. Looking back I sure wish he would have let me know. FYI–this was before the internet…hard to imagine…now I date myself

 

[DavidFilmer]

This is 100% not true.

Um, yes it is.

Marriage enjoys the favor of law. Consequently, in doubt, the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven. (Canon 1060).

ALL marriages are considered valid until PROVEN otherwise (this is true even if neither party is Baptized). Since this couple have chosen to marry outside the ordinary form of the Catholic Church, I think it is safe to assume that they will not petition the Church for a declaration of annulment (which is the ordinary manner in which the Church declares a marriage null).

Thus, as no Catholic authority has, or likely will ever declare the marriage null, it is **presumed **valid, and it always will be. Only the couple may seek such a petition for annulment (except the “promoter of justice” may make such petition in extreme cases (when “the public good is at stake”) as described in Canon 1674.2, the promoter being appointed by the Bishop of the Diocese per Canon 1430ff).

Even if this couple later sought to unite again with the Catholic Church, their marriage would be presumed valid unless **proven **otherwise. Their pastor should strongly encourage them to renew their vows in the presence of a Catholic minister (which would regularize the relationship), but he could not compel them to do so under Canon Law. They would be Catholics in good standing, and their marriage would be presumed valid as long as they both should live.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Um, yes it is.ALL marriages are considered valid until PROVEN otherwise (this is true even if neither party is Baptized). Since this couple have chosen to marry outside the ordinary form of the Catholic Church, I think it is safe to assume that they will not petition the Church for a declaration of annulment (which is the ordinary manner in which the Church declares a marriage null).

Thus, as no Catholic authority has, or likely will ever declare the marriage null, it is **presumed **valid, and it always will be. Only the couple may seek such a petition for annulment (except the “promoter of justice” may make such petition in extreme cases (when “the public good is at stake”) as described in Canon 1674.2, the promoter being appointed by the Bishop of the Diocese per Canon 1430ff).

Even if this couple later sought to unite again with the Catholic Church, their marriage would be presumed valid unless **proven **otherwise. Their pastor should strongly encourage them to renew their vows in the presence of a Catholic minister (which would regularize the relationship), but he could not compel them to do so under Canon Law. They would be Catholics in good standing, and their marriage would be presumed valid as long as they both should live.

Are you confusing the term natural marriage with valid marriage in this case?

 

[ThomasToo]

Are you invited to the bridal shower? Gift idea: Get them a one hour pre-paid visit from an apologist that will see them face to face and challenge their new beliefs.

I don’t think I can think of a more insulting “gift.”

 

[StrawberryJam]

I don’t think I can think of a more insulting “gift.”

Agreed. I was also thinking, if guests to my wedding were agonizing over their ability to attend, and worried that if they did not they would be risking a lost link to the catholic church, posting their moral dillemma on a forum…
Well, then I guess that’s when we see who the serious players are.

Either they really want to come to the wedding, or they don’t. In this case, I hope the bride and groom do not have anyone participating in their wedding unless they want to be there. Not Guests that want to keep a bridge open for them to come back to their former religion.

My challenge was to ask the party who is having moral dillemmas about attendence to ask themselves if they are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

If the only reason to attend boils down to keeping a door open to their religion, then I think the right thing to do is not attend. Because the only goal in the guests mind is getting them to come back to the tribe. There are more honest ways to go about that goal. Hire a hit man to do it for you and at least preserve some honor.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Are you confusing the term natural marriage with valid marriage in this case?

I’m simply saying what the Church teaches. I realize these “understandings” of marriage are not the same thing, but I also realize that the Church gives *everyone *the benefit of the doubt, until no doubt remains.

The Catholic Church makes absolutely no distinction whatsoever between natural and Sacramental marriage until and unless such a distinction can be **proven **before a lawfully appointed judge of Canon Law (not simply implied by the circumstances, where various individuals may pass their own judgment on the validity of the marriage). All marriages are presumed valid in every respect until and unless **proven **otherwise before a compitent authority.

The ceremony is certainly illicit (as I said), and could (probably) be easily annulled if the couple wished to make such a petition before a marriage tribunal. Lacking any such petition on their part, the Church would consider the marriage perfectly valid (in every respect), and I (as a Catholic) would do so as well.

There is no confusion here. The couple would be married in the opinion of the Catholic Church, and that is good enough for me.

 

[CaptainPicard]

The Church presumes the couple to be validly married if she has no reason not to. She does this because there is a whole list of things that could render the marriage invalid without anybody knowing it. The couple could be brother and sister and not know it. One or the other could have, from the very beginning, entered into the wedding not intending to keep their vows to be open to children, faithful, and married til death. The Church assumes they did, and thus assumes that they are validly married.

This situation is different in that we don’t have to guess whether or not this marriage is valid. We know it isn’t valid, because Catholics have to be married in the Church, and if they aren’t, it’s invalid. Likewise, if the couple being married were both divorcees and hadn’t gotten their previous marriages annulled, the church wouldn’t presume that this new “marriage” was valid. The prior marriages are assumed valid, so this one couldn’t be. Likewise, the Church wouldn’t have to presume that the marriage between a brother and sister is valid. We know it isn’t.

I dug up some links on this situation (from apologist Michelle Arnold):
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=167154
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=64951

There is no specific Church teaching on whether or not you should go to an invalid wedding. Although, from reading around on the internet, the opinion I’m picking from a lot of authority figures in the Church is to not go, unless your absence would greatly damage relationships between you and family members or things like that.