Should we be able to become CLOSE friends with the non Christ-centered?

[Lazerlike42]

Laser, this thread reminds me so much of your thread yesterday wherein you rejected offerings (almost from one and all) as you sought to find new means of expresiion in reference to the the interview process of seminaries. Why on earth do you insist nobody understand what you mean when it’s clear that most posters DO understand exactly what you mean? You’re saying that a special spiritual friendship blossoms unusually between two people and that can contribute their mutual holiness. YES. YES. YES. All agree - as happened between Francis of Assisi and Clare, Francis de Sales and Jane Frances, etc…

However these friendships are rare and special blessings; note the aforenamed were founders/foundresses who built new works together. The idea that the only friendships available to us are of these types is “out there” in the world of unreality.

The friendships that are the heart of our lives are to built upon the foundation of family intimacy. Jesus is our BROTHER. To John, he was a close friend as an older brother would be; how lovely for both of them. Yet that friendship, that special love had NOTHING to do with the needs of Jesus Christ. Presenting that relationship as a model of close friendship (without mentioning the heart of family love) seems to me to be horrific.

My dearest friend on a sprirtual field of intimacy was my own mother. My father comes a close second. My brothers, sister and two Protestant sisters-in-law rank too. My deceased Jewish mother-in-law was one of my closest, dearest fronds too. WHY? Both of us loved God above all.

My dearest friends are as family to me.
It’s NOT what they can give me.
It’s who we are to one another.
Intimacy of the heart begins with loving GOD.

Catharina,

When I explicitly say that a devout person should and can associate with, share faith with, and befriend people of little or no faith, and then virtually every single person who replies says that I am wrong to say that we should not associate with, share faith with, or befriend those with little or no faith, then yes, I do believe that people have misunderstood me because they have directly contradicted explicit statements of mine using at times identical language.

For example, my statements are in black, and the statements of others in red:

• " I associate with all sorts of people, and I love them all"
  “But how would you be able to share Him… if you only associate with those who are Christ-centered?”
• " I ought to be willing to talk to anyone, to give to anyone, to be there for anyone. Love knows no bounds. I have, currently do, and will continue to give of myself as much as I possibly can to all, whether they are friends or not, close or not, even if they do not like me, or treat me badly, whether they love Jesus or hate Him."
  What it comes down to is you love Christ so much that you can’t love a person who does not share the same theological views. You have a special link directly to God and can’t become close friends with others who don’t share this same gnosis.
• Certainly, we ought to give ouf ourselves as best we can to others, be they Catholic, Protestant, believer, friend, or enemy. We should share of ourselves, and in Christ doing so, these people became Christ centered - the apostles did, in this way.
  I would think that very love of Him… would propel your spirit to want to share Him, with those who do not know Him.

Now do you understand why I feel like people do not understand dme?

 

[catharina]

Catharina,

When I explicitly say that a devout person should and can associate with, share faith with, and befriend people of little or no faith, and then virtually every single person who replies says that I am wrong to say that we should not associate with, share faith with, or befriend those with little or no faith, then yes, I do believe that people have misunderstood me because they have directly contradicted explicit statements of mine using at times identical language.

For example, my statements are in black, and the statements of others in red:

• " I associate with all sorts of people, and I love them all"
  “But how would you be able to share Him… if you only associate with those who are Christ-centered?”
• " I ought to be willing to talk to anyone, to give to anyone, to be there for anyone. Love knows no bounds. I have, currently do, and will continue to give of myself as much as I possibly can to all, whether they are friends or not, close or not, even if they do not like me, or treat me badly, whether they love Jesus or hate Him."
  What it comes down to is you love Christ so much that you can’t love a person who does not share the same theological views. You have a special link directly to God and can’t become close friends with others who don’t share this same gnosis.
• Certainly, we ought to give ouf ourselves as best we can to others, be they Catholic, Protestant, believer, friend, or enemy. We should share of ourselves, and in Christ doing so, these people became Christ centered - the apostles did, in this way.
  I would think that very love of Him… would propel your spirit to want to share Him, with those who do not know Him.

Now do you understand why I feel like people do not understand dme?

I strongly believe that you don’t get what I’m saying - and perhaps what others are saying too. Again, you said.

“Again, I really am not certain if folks understand the difference between loving someone and being their close friend. Just because I am not a close friend to someone, that doesn’t mean I do not love them or that I do not show them love. It means that I’m not their close friend, just like Jesus was not a close friend of any of the folks He healed, but He still loved them. Jesus loved everyone, but was close friends with John the Apostle. Francis of Assisi loved everyone, but was close friends with a few of the original brothers of the Friars Minor. Does this make sense?”

Yet I’ve said: **"The friendships that are the heart of our lives are to built upon the foundation (THE MODEL) of family intimacy. Jesus is our BROTHER. To John, he was a close friend as an older brother would be; how lovely for both of them. Yet that friendship, that special love had NOTHING to do with the needs of Jesus Christ. Presenting that relationship as a model of close friendship (without mentioning the heart of family love) seems to me to be horrific.

My dearest friend on a sprirtual field of intimacy was my own mother. My father comes a close second. My brothers, sister and two Protestant sisters-in-law rank too. My deceased Jewish mother-in-law was one of my closest, dearest friends too. WHY? Both of us loved God above all.

My dearest friends are as family to me.
It’s NOT what they can give me.
It’s who we are to one another.
Intimacy of the heart begins with loving GOD."**

The fact that some closest friends have been without the fullness oif faith - but highly blessed by their love of God - was clearly NO impediment to our friendship. To put it simply: I understand what you’re saying AND I’m disagreeing with you.

In loving me, they loved my love of Christ.
In loving them, I loved (and do love) their love of God.

 

[Lazerlike42]

I strongly believe that you don’t get what I’m saying - and perhaps what others are saying too. Again, you said.

“Again, I really am not certain if folks understand the difference between loving someone and being their close friend. Just because I am not a close friend to someone, that doesn’t mean I do not love them or that I do not show them love. It means that I’m not their close friend, just like Jesus was not a close friend of any of the folks He healed, but He still loved them. Jesus loved everyone, but was close friends with John the Apostle. Francis of Assisi loved everyone, but was close friends with a few of the original brothers of the Friars Minor. Does this make sense?”

Yet I’ve said: "The friendships that are the heart of our lives are to built upon the foundation (THE MODEL) of family intimacy. Jesus is our BROTHER. To John, he was a close friend as an older brother would be; how lovely for both of them. Yet that friendship, that special love had NOTHING to do with the needs of Jesus Christ. Presenting that relationship as a model of close friendship (without mentioning the heart of family love) seems to me to be horrific.

My dearest friend on a sprirtual field of intimacy was my own mother. My father comes a close second. My brothers, sister and two Protestant sisters-in-law rank too. My deceased Jewish mother-in-law was one of my closest, dearest friends too. WHY? Both of us loved God above all.

My dearest friends are as family to me.
It’s NOT what they can give me.
It’s who we are to one another.
Intimacy of the heart begins with loving GOD."

The fact that some closest friends have been without the fullness oif faith - but highly blessed by their love of God - was clearly NO impediment to our friendship. To put it simply: I understand what you’re saying AND I’m disagreeing with you.

In loving me, they loved my love of Christ.
In loving them, I loved (and do love) their love of God.

Catharina,

What I was commenting on in my previous post had nothing to do with what you are mentioning here. I was responding to your assertion that I was mistaken that people did not understand what I was saying by quoting instances wherein people had explicitly and directly contradicted me and criticized me for believing things I had explicitly rejected.

As far as what you just said, I don’t think I disagree with you. I think that perhaps I could become friends with a person who deeply loved God, though that person may be a Protestant, a Jew, or something else. Now I cannot say for certain that I could, but I don’t think I can exclude it. I am referring not at all to this sort of thing, but to people who do not love God - to nominal Catholics, to nominal Christians, to atheists, to folks like that. PERHAPS I may even be able to form a close friendship with an atheist who deeply sought the truth, though again I cannot say. What I can say is that what you are critiquing about my thoughts is not at all what my thoughts are about. When I say non-Christ centered, I refer to the folks who never think of God throughout their week, not necessarily folks that may think of Him frequently but understand Him differently.

Peace and God bless

 

[catharina]

Catharina,

What I was commenting on in my previous post had nothing to do with what you are mentioning here. I was responding to your assertion that I was mistaken that people did not understand what I was saying by quoting instances wherein people had explicitly and directly contradicted me and criticized me for believing things I had explicitly rejected.

As far as what you just said, I don’t think I disagree with you. I think that perhaps I could become friends with a person who deeply loved God, though that person may be a Protestant, a Jew, or something else. Now I cannot say for certain that I could, but I don’t think I can exclude it.

**Great - that’s a whole new attitude from you. **

I am referring not at all to this sort of thing, but to people who do not love God - to nominal Catholics, to nominal Christians, to atheists, to folks like that. PERHAPS I may even be able to form a close friendship with an atheist who deeply sought the truth, though again I cannot say. What I can say is that what you are critiquing about my thoughts is not at all what my thoughts are about. When I say non-Christ centered, I refer to the folks who never think of God throughout their week, not necessarily folks that may think of Him frequently but understand Him differently.

**
If we choose to rank ourselves above others whose faith might be weaker, then in the end we shall stand alone: unloving and unloved. The notion of possibly commiting to a new close friendship with an atheist - while turning your back on any close friendship with those who are weaker in their faith - is unusual and from my perspective, rather frightenng.**

Peace and God bless

**God bless you as well. **

 

[Lazerlike42]

**
Great - that’s a whole new attitude from you.
**

Lol - Catharina, this has been my point the entire time…

If we choose to rank ourselves above others whose faith might be weaker, then in the end we shall stand alone: unloving and unloved. The notion of possibly commiting to a new close friendship with an atheist - while turning your back on any close friendship with those who are weaker in their faith - is unusual and from my perspective, rather frightenng.

Again, all of these things are the farthest thing from my thoughts. I don’t rank myself above anyone. I’m not even talking about committing to a close friendship. People don’t commit to close friendships… they don’t decide they will be close with a person. Close friendships develop between two people who make an intimate connection - people who’s deepest thoughts and feelings are compatible in some way. Nobody looks at someone and says, “I’m going to be come a close friend of that person.” People simply, as they interact, grow close over time if there is some deep compatibility between them.

What I am talking about here is whether or not any such deep compatibility exists between people of deep devotion and those of little or no devotion. In other words, if I am the friend of a person who never thinks about God, are we going to end up connecting in such a way that I share my deepest joys with that person, and my deepest sorrows, and that he shares his or she hers? When I am upset and the only consolation that can help is to hear someone tell me that God understands, is the person who never thinks of God going to do so? I’m not trying to make close friendships out to be selfish. I am trying to illustrate the sorts of things that make something a close personal friendship as opposed to a “standard” friendship, or an aquaintanceship, or an association.

I’m not talking about spiritual, Francis/Clare relationships either. I am just talking about a close friendship, where two people share their deepest joys, sorrows, longings, and aspirations - whether they be spiritual or not. I cannot envision two people whose deepest joys, sorrows, longings, and aspirations are so radically different being close personal friends, whatever those deep parts of their souls may be about.

Peace and God bless

 

[catharina]

Lol - Catharina, this has been my point the entire time…

Again, all of these things are the farthest thing from my thoughts. I don’t rank myself above anyone. I’m not even talking about committing to a close friendship. People don’t commit to close friendships… they don’t decide they will be close with a person. Close friendships develop between two people who make an intimate connection - people who’s deepest thoughts and feelings are compatible in some way. Nobody looks at someone and says, “I’m going to be come a close friend of that person.” People simply, as they interact, grow close over time if there is some deep compatibility between them.

What I am talking about here is whether or not any such deep compatibility exists between people of deep devotion and those of little or no devotion. In other words, if I am the friend of a person who never thinks about God, are we going to end up connecting in such a way that I share my deepest joys with that person, and my deepest sorrows, and that he shares his or she hers? When I am upset and the only consolation that can help is to hear someone tell me that God understands, is the person who never thinks of God going to do so? I’m not trying to make close friendships out to be selfish. I am trying to illustrate the sorts of things that make something a close personal friendship as opposed to a “standard” friendship, or an aquaintanceship, or an association.

I’m not talking about spiritual, Francis/Clare relationships either. I am just talking about a close friendship, where two people share their deepest joys, sorrows, longings, and aspirations - whether they be spiritual or not. I cannot envision two people whose deepest joys, sorrows, longings, and aspirations are so radically different being close personal friends, whatever those deep parts of their souls may be about.

Peace and God bless

You might sell me on all of these views if I hadn’t absorbed your thread of yesterday (Prayer Intentions - seminary acceptance/rejection). In that thread you said quite specifically that you believe that you are far more spiritually advanced than others of your age and locale. (Forgive the paraphrase.)

Now you say you can imagine possibly forming a friendship (COMMITING to a friendship) with an atheist - but not with other Catholics/Christians who (in your limited opinion) are not Christ-centered in their living. Your view in both instances is so unusual that I find it astonishing.

You: above (‘spiritually advanced’) compared to your peers.

You: willing nonetheless to entertain the idea of a possible close firendship with an atheist.

Do you see NO contradiction in your thinking -
considering that we are called to be Christ for others?

 

[Lazerlike42]

You might sell me on all of these views if I hadn’t absorbed your thread of yesterday (Prayer Intentions - seminary acceptance/rejection). In that thread you said quite specifically that you believe that you are far more spiritually advanced than others of your age and locale. (Forgive the paraphrase.)

Now you say you can imagine possibly forming a friendship (COMMITING to a friendship) with an atheist - but not with other Catholics/Christians who (in your limited opinion) are not Christ-centered in their living. Your view in both instances is so unusual that I find it astonishing.

You: above (‘spiritually advanced’) compared to your peers.

You: willing nonetheless to entertain the idea of a possible close firendship with an atheist.

Do you see NO contradiction in your thinking -
considering that we are called to be Christ for others?

I didn’t say I couldn’t form a friendship with non Christ-centered Christians. I said that I didn’t think I could form a close friendship - a deep sharing of our deepest joys, sorrows, longings, and aspirations. I said I may be able to form a close friendship with an atheist who was sincerely and deeply seeking the truth, but that I was not sure. I was merely trying to explain my thoughts in light of your post - namely, that I am referring, like Theresa of Avila as quoted earlier in this thread - to those who do not have a love for God, not to those who may have erroneous theology.

As far as saying I amm typically more spiritually advanced than those I meet, I don’t see the problem with this… I am no saint, but many of the saints I have read have spoken this way about themselves. Francis de Sales made statements along these lines, for example. I don’t say it in terms of looking down on anyone - that’s the last thing I’d ever want to do. I just mean that most of the people I know are folks for whom Christ is important, but only to a degree… whereas to me, even if I utterly fail, He is on my mind nearly every waking moment, and would that He were in every dream of mine as well… That’s all a gift - it’s not my doing. I don’t hold it against anyone if they do not think this same way. I simply question whether I can form a close and intimate friendship with them. I know I can love them - I do! - and I know I can be friends with them - I do!.

Peace and God bless

 

[catharina]

As far as saying I amm typically more spiritually advanced than those I meet, I don’t see the problem with this… I am no saint, but many of the saints I have read have spoken this way about themselves. Francis de Sales made statements along these lines, for example. I don’t say it in terms of looking down on anyone - that’s the last thing I’d ever want to do.

**
The surprise for me was/is that I can’t recall anyone of your youth saying such a thing. **

 

[Lazerlike42]

**
The surprise for me was/is that I can’t recall anyone of your youth saying such a thing. **

Actually Francis de Sales may have been at a similar age when he wrote the line I am thinking of… I believe he was 26, which is only 2 years older than myself.

You also have to recognize that most of the people I am dealing with are pretty close in age to myself. That being said, I don’t know that age has anything to do with one’s spiritual development or his or her understanding of his spiritual relationship to others. For example Therese of Lisieux was tremendously further along than all of us when she was years younger than I and certainly than yourself.

Peace and God bless

 

[brigid12]

It seems to me that for one thing, we wouldn’t have the same total life-view as someone who wasn’t Christ-centered so that would seem to make this question a mute one, especially with close friends. Also, St. Paul tells us to be in the world but not of the world. 'Course, he says, too, that, regarding a spouse who is not a believer, that we should try to stay with them (and convert them with our love) if they will have us. I guess it would depend on the situation and if the non-believer were leading
the Christian into temptation, the near occasion of sin or even into mortal sin or not.

 

[catharina]

Actually Francis de Sales may have been at a similar age when he wrote the line I am thinking of… I believe he was 26, which is only 2 years older than myself.
I would appreciate seeing that quote.

You also have to recognize that most of the people I am dealing with are pretty close in age to myself. That being said, I don’t know that age has anything to do with one’s spiritual development or his or her understanding of his spiritual relationship to others. For example Therese of Lisieux was tremendously further along than all of us when she was years younger than I and certainly than yourself. ** I can’t recall that she ever said anything about others remotely like what you’ve said about others.**

At least, please, acknowledge the fact that your stated view of yourself (as spiritually advanced compared to your peers) is extremely unusual.

 

[Lazerlike42]

At least, please, acknowledge the fact that your stated view of yourself (as spiritually advanced compared to your peers) is extremely unusual.

I really don’t think it’s unusual at all… it’s merely stating what to the best of my objective observation is the reality. I recall Fr. Corapi’s definition of humility: submission to the truth. In his talk “Humility: Spiritual Nuclear Weapon,” he said a lot of stuff that really shocked me the first time I heard it, but I now I understand it a bit more. If I am, by the Grace of God, doing better than someone else, than to acknowledge mentally this and, in the appropriate circumstances and for an appropriate reason, verbally is not anything other than humility. To deny such a reality if it were true would be a false humility - a statement made for the sake of sounding humble or even trying to be humble rather than accepting the truth of the matter and submitting oneself to it.

Therese of Lisieux says something similar in the beginning of her personal “memoirs” when she comments on the fact that she believes if the flowers of the field could speak, they would not try to hide what God had done for them but proclaim all of the glorious gifts He had given them, all of their colors and scents and whatnot. She wishes to be just like them, and so, she explains (if I recall correctly), that is why she will tell of all her virtues and such gifts as God had given her.

So, when I am interacting with a person who rarely prays, who doesn’t seek God’s guidance in the vast majority of things, who faces difficult situations with all sorts of fear and confusion and yet never even thinks to pray about it, then I acknowledge that yes, I’m further along the road than this person, and that’s ok. Perhaps someday they will be further than I. Now note that it’s not due to superficial things, like, “Well I pray 2 hours a day, this person only does it 15 minutes,” or, “I pray a Rosary every day, this person doesn’t…” In other words, it isn’t some sort of a tally where I just do more spiritual stuff. It’s the deeper stuff - the trust, the recognition of Christ in everything, stuff like that. It’s really all of it.

I’m not going to try to explain it perfectly… the truth is it’s late and I don’t know if I could do so were I bright eyed and bushy tailed. I hope it made some sense. The point is hey, sometimes you can tell, and I’m not going to try to deny truth to make myself feel more humble, or to try to be more humble; as I said, that would only be false humility. True humility is to simply accept the truth, whatever it is.

I know I’m imperfect, believe me - very much so. I know there are others who are far, far further along than I. I know there are some who are not. I know that my spirituality would be better off if I were around folks who were further along spiritually than myself, and I pray for and would like to be in that situation. That’s all.

As far as the specific Francis de Sales quote I was thinking of, it is:

“there is no soul in the world, it seems to me, that loves more affectionately, more tenderly and, to say it once and for all, more lovingly than I. For it pleased God to make my heart this way” (written to St. Jane Frances de Chantal).

I must plead an errorenous memory as regards his age. Francis did not know St. Jane until he was 37, and so he would have been at least this old at the time of composing the letter.

Peace and God bless

 

[catharina]

Therese of Lisieux says something similar in the beginning of her personal “memoirs” when she comments on the fact that she believes if the flowers of the field could speak, they would not try to hide what God had done for them but proclaim all of the glorious gifts He had given them, all of their colors and scents and whatnot. She wishes to be just like them, and so, she explains (if I recall correctly), that is why she will tell of all her virtues and such gifts as God had given her.

**
As a matter of fact, Therese wrote this memoir under the vow of Obedience.**
…

As far as the specific Francis de Sales quote I was thinking of, it is:

“there is no soul in the world, it seems to me, that loves more affectionately, more tenderly and, to say it once and for all, more lovingly than I. For it pleased God to make my heart this way” (written to St. Jane Frances de Chantal).

**… and completing that thought, De Sales added this to his words to Jane Frances: "But nonetheless, I love independent and vigorous souls who are not effeminate. For an excessive tenderness confounds the heart, disquiets it and distracts it from affectionate prayer toward God [and] hinders complete resignation and the death of self-love. . . " **

I must plead an errorenous memory as regards his age. Francis did not know St. Jane until he was 37, and so he would have been at least this old at the time of composing the letter.

**
Both saints have been proclaimed “Doctor of the Church.”**

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Of course you can have close friends with those who are not Christ-centered.

However, from my experience, if you are Christ centered and they are not, chances are they’ll sever their relationship with you, it won’t be you cutting the ties with them.

Jim

 

[catharina]

Of course you can have close friends with those who are not Christ-centered.

However, from my experience, if you are Christ centered and they are not, chances are they’ll sever their relationship with you, it won’t be you cutting the ties with them.

Jim

Agreed. Or, over time, they will become more Christ centered too.

 

[elts1956]

Again, I really am not certain if folks understand the difference between loving someone and being their close friend. Just because I am not a close friend to someone, that doesn’t mean I do not love them or that I do not show them love. It means that I’m not their close friend, just like Jesus was not a close friend of any of the folks He healed, but He still loved them. Jesus loved everyone, but was close friends with John the Apostle. Francis of Assisi loved everyone, but was close friends with a few of the original brothers of the Friars Minor. Does this make sense?

I might happen to be friends with someone who only shares sports with me as a common interest, but if that is the only common interest, they are probably not going to be a close friend. If Christ is so important to me that I want Him in every last second of my life, I just don’t see how it ends up happening that somebody who does not care much about Him and I are simply going to end up spending enough time around one another to develop a close friendship. How does a guy who spends every waking moment watching sports, or anything else, end up spending enough time around a guy who doesn’t to develop something more than a casual friendship?

Peace and God bless

Are you talking about different kinds of love? As far as I know there is agape and eros… Is there a third one? Or is eros always a small part of close friendship?

 

[catharina]

Are you talking about different kinds of love? As far as I know there is agape and eros… Is there a third one? Or is eros always a small part of close friendship?

Brilliant post. Thanks for insisting that terms be defined.
Shame on all the rest of us for not doing so.

Yes, four kinds of love.
Three from the Greek: agape, philia and eros.
One from the Latin: caritas.

Here is a link (higlighted) to Pope Benedict XVI’s “Deus Caritas Est.” He mentions all four.

209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:5LYqbqvjd_AJ:www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html+agape,+eros,+philia,+caritas,+charity&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8

 

[Elizastaci]

I don’t think it’s my place to judge how close or not a person might be with Christ. Their relationships with Him are their business, and His. Not mine.

What’s more, someone who claims their life is Christ-centered, and goes around talking all the time about how much they pray or attend Mass or watch ETWN or whatever might be all talk, and not be any closer to Christ than the next person. Hearing about it from someone doesn’t make it true, so I don’t think there’s any way to really know the depth of a person’s devotion. There’s only One who can know that.

I have close friends of every creed. To me, they are my brothers and sisters, and I love them, like they love me. We’re all imperfect, and as far as centering Christ in our loves, I think we’ve all got a long way to go. Why make things more difficult or more prejudiced? Absolutely no point.

Of course this may be crossing a line, do forgive me, but-- the idea of sizing up a potential aquaintence by how devoted they appear to be really creeps me out. To me it just calls to mind the Nazis measuring a person’s Aryan blood to try to determine if they were ‘acceptable’ either. Just my :twocents:

 

[catharina]

I don’t think it’s my place to judge how close or not a person might be with Christ. Their relationships with Him are their business, and His. Not mine.

What’s more, someone who claims their life is Christ-centered, and goes around talking all the time about how much they pray or attend Mass or watch ETWN or whatever might be all talk, and not be any closer to Christ than the next person. Hearing about it from someone doesn’t make it true, so I don’t think there’s any way to really know the depth of a person’s devotion. There’s only One who can know that.

I have close friends of every creed. To me, they are my brothers and sisters, and I love them, like they love me. We’re all imperfect, and as far as centering Christ in our loves, I think we’ve all got a long way to go. Why make things more difficult or more prejudiced? Absolutely no point.

Of course this may be crossing a line, do forgive me, but-- the idea of sizing up a potential aquaintence by how devoted they appear to be really creeps me out. To me it just calls to mind the Nazis measuring a person’s Aryan blood to try to determine if they were ‘acceptable’ either. Just my :twocents:

Thank you, yes. I get your point. My own belief is that others - perhaps many many others - might be very close to Christ, very spiritually advanced, and yet the appearances of that fact might be completely invisible to me.

How can I possibly judge the spiritual development of any other person in relation to mine?

 

[peary]

Thank you, yes. I get your point. My own belief is that others - perhaps many many others - might be very close to Christ, very spiritually advanced, and yet the appearances of that fact might be completely invisible to me.

How can I possibly judge the spiritual development of any other person in relation to mine?

Why would a person NOT want to have non-Christ-centered friends? That does not make sense to me. It seems elitist to me not to invite them into one’s life.