Should we be able to become CLOSE friends with the non Christ-centered?

[catharina]

It is great you have a close relationship with your MIL. That is a true blessing. No problem at all.

While you may be talking about close family relationship, I am actually talking about friend with “spiritual intimacy”.And I think that may be what the OP was asking about.

Everyone’s definition of “spiritual intimacy” is different. How we define it also depends on where we are on our own spiritual journey.
One has to have the same experience of deep recollection to understand what St. Teresa is talking about. My answer to the original question comes from that angle. I just cannot imagine a person in deep recollection with contemplative prayers who practice the presence of the Lord all the time, can form spiritual intimacy with someone who is not Christ centered.

By the way, I will be off CAF for the next three days.

While I won’t attempt to speak for anyone else, I do think that at times, theologians (across religious lines; e.g., Catholics, Jews) can and do form deep friendships that are based in a mutual love of God. The late Holy Father comes to mind - as does his lifelong friendship with Jewish friends begun in childhood. (Although not many of those friends survived the Holocaust.)

The OP and I view this through different lenses. He has stated that he imagines there might be a circumstance where he would/could develop an close (intimate) friendship with an atheist. That is not an event that I can or do imagine for myself.

 

[InLight247]

Like I mentioned in my first post on this thread, though I read many, I did not read every single post.

A close friend and a spiritually intimate friend can have a subtle difference in between. Are all our good friends close friends? Are all our close friends intimate spiritual friends? …

We each may have a particular definition in mind about anything we discuss. That’s why often times communication is not easy, especially online. So, let’s just keep our own minds.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Catharina,

The OP and I view this through different lenses. He has stated that he imagines there might be a circumstance where he would/could develop an close (intimate) friendship with an atheist. That is not an event that I can or do imagine for myself.

I believe the OP was saying this by way of concession after JMeyer admitted in posts 9 & 30 that s/he had a friendship with an atheist. However, here were the OP’s words that did not give any indication that he would do likewise:

I think that perhaps I could become friends with a person who deeply loved God, though that person may be a Protestant, a Jew, or something else. Now I cannot say for certain that I could, but I don’t think I can exclude it. I am referring not at all to this sort of thing, but to people who do not love God - to nominal Catholics, to nominal Christians, to atheists, to folks like that. PERHAPS I may even be able to form a close friendship with an atheist who deeply sought the truth, though again I cannot say.

Lots of maybe’s and perhaps’, and I cannot say’s. Not at all an admission as you are stating above. I have the feeling you are indignant about this thread and the OP’s view, at least it comes through that way to me in the persistent manner you rebut his posts.

May I offer some personal clarification that I heard from a counsellor somewhere in my lifetime. Man is body, mind and spirit, and relates on different levels with others based on the natural qualities one may share, all the way up to the very intimate spiritual ones.

• Friend A may be a golf partner or football fan who shares my love for sports. We will get along great in this aspect of comradery … only.
• Friend B is the guy next door who plants a garden, as I do, and we share our insights for growing the best tomatoes ever!
• Friend C is my family member who has a filial relationship unlike any others.
• Friend D is the one-in-a-lifetime person whom I CHOOSE for my own intimate companion to share the things of the spirit: my troubles with temptation, my discoveries about scripture, my goals in brings Christ to others, my prayer and worship, etc.

Anyone can befriend those in A,B, and C due to the natural relationship, but not in D. That is the area of friendship I believe the OP is talking about here. I share this excellent teaching, which is similar, from St. Francis de Sales:

catholictreasury.info/books/devout_life/dev63.php

Do you, my child, love every one with the pure love of charity, but have no friendship save with those whose intercourse is good and true, and the purer the bond which unites you so much higher will your friendship be.

To my mind all other friendship is but as a shadow with respect to this, its links mere fragile glass compared to the golden bond of true devotion. Do you form no other friendships. I say “form,” because you have no right to cast aside or neglect the natural bonds which draw you to relations, connections, benefactors or neighbors.

 

[catharina]

Hi Catharina,

I believe the OP was saying this by way of concession after JMeyer admitted in posts 9 & 30 that s/he had a friendship with an atheist. However, here were the OP’s words that did not give any indication that he would do likewise:

Lots of maybe’s and perhaps’, and I cannot say’s. Not at all an admission as you are stating above. I have the feeling you are indignant about this thread and the OP’s view, at least it comes through that way to me in the persistent manner you rebut his posts.

May I offer some personal clarification that I heard from a counsellor somewhere in my lifetime. Man is body, mind and spirit, and relates on different levels with others based on the natural qualities one may share, all the way up to the very intimate spiritual ones.

• Friend A may be a golf partner or football fan who shares my love for sports. We will get along great in this aspect of comradery … only.
• Friend B is the guy next door who plants a garden, as I do, and we share our insights for growing the best tomatoes ever!
• Friend C is my family member who has a filial relationship unlike any others.
• Friend D is the one-in-a-lifetime person whom I CHOOSE for my own intimate companion to share the things of the spirit: my troubles with temptation, my discoveries about scripture, my goals in brings Christ to others, my prayer and worship, etc.

Anyone can befriend those in A,B, and C due to the natural relationship, but not in D. That is the area of friendship I believe the OP is talking about here. I share this excellent teaching, which is similar, from St. Francis de Sales:

Quote:
catholictreasury.info/books/d…life/dev63.php

Do you, my child, love every one with the pure love of charity, but have no friendship save with those whose intercourse is good and true, and the purer the bond which unites you so much higher will your friendship be.

To my mind all other friendship is but as a shadow with respect to this, its links mere fragile glass compared to the golden bond of true devotion. Do you form no other friendships. I say “form,” because you have no right to cast aside or neglect the natural bonds which draw you to relations, connections, benefactors or neighbors. *

As I said:
“The OP and I view this through different lenses. He has stated that he imagines there might be a circumstance where he would/could develop an close (intimate) friendship with an atheist. That is not an event that I can or do imagine for myself.”

If you can read the internal workings of the OP’s mind, I congratulate you. I cannot do the same. Explaining his tenuous statement of remote possibility in relation to Jmeyer’s staements in Posts 9 and 30 is interesting. I can’t say that it is so. Maybe it is. Maybe not.

Crediting St. Francis de Sales, the gentlest of all saints, with the statements you’ve provided is easy and as always without hesitation, I applaud him.

How he would think and speak if he lived in the world of today is unknown to me - and to you.

IMO, the facts of the Holocaust have shifted the world’s opinion as to what constitutes the faithful worship of the Only Living God. That Jews and Moslems do not have the fullness of truth does not mitigate the fact that they too worship God Alone. If we are not open to friendships with (at the least) those who BELIEVE, then how can we say we are willing to do the will of God? I am indeed indignant about the notion that one must be insular in forming friendships. It seems to me to be quite un-Christian.

Your quotes from your counselor are interesting. As to Friend D, I think it’s possible to have such a friendship with others who worship God and are of good will - not necessarily even Catholic. As for the crux of the quotes from Francis de Sales, I believe his words easily encompass friendships with any and all who believe in God.

 

[Joysong]

If we are not open to friendships with (at the least) those who BELIEVE, then how can we say we are willing to do the will of God? I am indeed indignant about the notion that one must be insular in forming friendships. It seems to me to be quite un-Christian.

Certainly, we can be open, and I believe many of us ARE, but I believe the topic is “Should we be ABLE” with the NON-Christ centerered? St. Francis is a Doctor of the Church, and his writings are timeless, which you are discounting because they go back in time.

You’re not convinced, I see, and I don’t know how to be any clearer than I have in trying to explain what seems very difficult for you to understand. Well, let’s simply leave it up to the OP who, by now, has received enough information to form his own opinion, which is what he asked of us.

 

[catharina]

You’re not convinced, I see, and I don’t know how to be any clearer than I have in trying to explain what seems very difficult for you to understand. Well, let’s simply leave it up to the OP who, by now, has received enough information to form his own opinion, which is what he asked of us.

I am convinced - simply, I don’t share your opinion on the subject. I looked at your profile and have realized this. It’s entirely possible that you and I see things within the scope of our own formation and spirituality: yours, Carmelite; mine Vincentian. (For the record, Vincent de Paul and Francis de Sales were contemporaries and very close firends.)

 

[Joysong]

It’s entirely possible that you and I see things within the scope of our own formation and spirituality: yours, Carmelite; mine Vincentian. (For the record, Vincent de Paul and Francis de Sales were contemporaries and very close firends.)

Not at all, Catharina. It has nothing to do with formation or spirituality. It is a call to a “devout life” as the book title says, and was written for all lay persons who desire this. Read again St. Francis’ words:

And St. Thomas, in common with other philosophers, acknowledges that friendship is a virtue, and he certainly means individual friendships, because he says that we cannot bestow perfect friendship on many persons.

So we see that the highest grace does not lie in being without friendships, but in having none which are not good, holy and true.

If your list of CLOSE friends is long and you are able to be intimate with many of them, then you are the odd man out, and I would be taking my phone off the hook, as well as my doorbell.

The reality is that we may and do indeed love all men, none excluded, but I have to agree with St. Thomas here, as well, that few will be in the intimate circle.

 

[catharina]

Not at all, Catharina. It has nothing to do with formation. Read again St. Francis’ words:

If your list of CLOSE friends is long and you are able to be intimate with a many of them, then you are the odd man out, and I would be taking my phone off the hook, as well as my doorbell.

The reality is that we may and do indeed love all men, none excluded, but I have to agree with St. Thomas here, as well, that few will be in the intimate circle.

What an odd statement. My list of close friends is very short.

Also, you are quoting St. Thomas. What St. Thomas is that?
If you mean Aquinas, I agree with him regarding close friendship.

 

[Joysong]

St. Francis did not say “Aquinas” but in calling him a philospher, we can assume that was his meaning.

So we do agree in theory, that few can be chosen and fill the role of an intimate friendship. AMEN! That’s the point I think we have been trying to come to consensus about.

For instance, we have 95,000 members on CAF, but how many of these frequent the thread about the saints where you, Jeanette and JR are active? I would imagine you three have developed a special spiritual bond because you all have a common devotion to studying these holy men and women and share that spiritual friendship and affection with one another.

That is the norm, IMO, and few of the 95,000 whom you would love to include in that circle are capable of relating to you in that same intensity of participation. Nor would you deliberately exclude anyone, but all are not open to the same degree as yourselves. They would naturally be uncomfortable unless they have the same attractions of grace and inspiration. It is their own spirituality which would prevent closeness, even though you all may be willing to include them.

I hope this helps.

 

[catharina]

St. Francis did not say “Aquinas” but in calling him a philospher, we can assume that was his meaning.

So we do agree in theory, that few can be chosen and fill the role of an intimate friendship. AMEN! That’s the point I think we have been trying to come to consensus about.

For instance, we have 95,000 members on CAF, but how many of these frequent the thread about the saints where you, Jeanette and JR are active? I would imagine you three have developed a special spiritual bond because you all have a common devotion to studying these holy men and women and share that spiritual friendship and affection with one another.

That is the norm, IMO, and few of the 95,000 whom you would love to include in that circle are capable of relating to you in that same intensity of participation. Nor would you deliberately exclude anyone, but all are not open to the same degree as yourselves. They would naturally be uncomfortable unless they have the same attractions of grace and inspiration. **It is their own spirituality which would prevent closeness, even though you all may be willing to include them. **

I hope this helps.

It is indeed your final point that is my primary point. The Spirit leadeth where He will - and all find God as God leads us to find Him. Different veins of spirituality lead us within the Church. Vincent de Paul (and Louise de Marilllac) took as their motto the words of St Paul: “The charity of Christ (crucified) urges us.” As Mother Teresa taught some centuries later, we are to find and love Jesus Christ within the poorest of the poor, indeed within all men and women. In opening our hearts to that type of love, we might find ourselves newly graced - finding God within those who love Him totally, but differently, from the love that is shown to us in the fullness of faith. Thus close friendships can - and do - form, even across religious lines. (That has been my own experience. I can’t pretend to believe that the same might happen for all.)

 

[Joysong]

As Mother Teresa taught some centuries later, we are to find and love Jesus Christ within the poorest of the poor, indeed within all men and women. In opening our hearts to that type of love, we might find ourselves newly graced.

While I agree with you that Mother Teresa lived what she taught, I disagree that she held an intimate close friendship with all of these people she ministered to, and she would be the first to admit it. Nor do I believe that finding Jesus in the "poorest of the poor’ implies therefore that we will have CLOSE friendship with all whom we encounter and/or serve. That’s where I believe the misunderstanding arose regarding the OP’s question – it is being taken out of context, as though he had no openness or willingness to extend Christ’s love to all men.

Our priests pastor hundreds, thousands of people in their lifetime, all with Christ’s love, we presume. Yet ask them how many they are intimately associated with in bonds of holy friendship – very few, by personal choice and God’s 'blowing where He will."

 

[catharina]

While I agree with you that Mother Teresa lived what she taught, I disagree that she held an intimate close friendship with all of these people she ministered to, and she would be the first to admit it. Nor do I believe that finding Jesus in the "poorest of the poor’ implies therefore that we will have CLOSE friendship with all whom we encounter and/or serve. That’s where I believe the misunderstanding arose regarding the OP’s question – it is being taken out of context, as though he had no openness or willingness to extend Christ’s love to all men.

Our priests pastor hundreds, thousands of people in their lifetime, all with Christ’s love, we presume. Yet ask them how many they are intimately associated with in bonds of holy friendship – very few, by personal choice and God’s 'blowing where He will."

Please.

You must know that in no way am I implying that I have personal knowledge of any of Mother Teresa’s relationships.

My point, rather, is that when one’s work or ministry or charism leads one OUT INTO THE WORLD, one might come upon a person who is very open to a deep and close friendship. Vincent de Paul told his Sisters to make for their clositers “the streets of the city” for their veil “holy modesty” for their chapel “the parish church.” This sort of living, (the kind Francis de Sales desired for his own Sisters but wasn’t able to arrange - especially in this country where Jews, Moslems and Christians mingle freely - ) can lead one into unexpectedly intimate friendships with others who truly worship God but have not yet the fullness of Faith. I’ve always been satisfied that in loving me, Jewish friends truly love ‘the me’ that worships and follows Christ Jesus, Our Lord.

 

[KingAlfred]

While I agree with you that Mother Teresa lived what she taught, I disagree that she held an intimate close friendship with all of these people she ministered to, and she would be the first to admit it. Nor do I believe that finding Jesus in the "poorest of the poor’ implies therefore that we will have CLOSE friendship with all whom we encounter and/or serve. That’s where I believe the misunderstanding arose regarding the OP’s question – it is being taken out of context, as though he had no openness or willingness to extend Christ’s love to all men.

Our priests pastor hundreds, thousands of people in their lifetime, all with Christ’s love, we presume. Yet ask them how many they are intimately associated with in bonds of holy friendship – very few, by personal choice and God’s 'blowing where He will."

Do you still believe that about Mother Teresa, knowing that she might not have even believed in God? No offense. I’m not trying to be disrespectful.

 

[Joysong]

KingAlfred:

Joysong:

While I agree with you that Mother Teresa lived what she taught, I disagree that she held an intimate close friendship with all of these people she ministered to, and she would be the first to admit it. Nor do I believe that finding Jesus in the "poorest of the poor’ implies therefore that we will have CLOSE friendship with all whom we encounter and/or serve.

Do you still believe “that” about Mother Teresa, knowing that she might not have even believed in God?

I’m not following you. What did you mean by “that?” That she lived what she taught? That she had few intimate friendships among those she served? That she found Jesus in the “poorest of the poor?”

And what did you mean by she might not have believed in God?

 

[Joysong]

KingAlfred,

Assuming you meant that Mother Teresa did not open herself to many intimate friendships, I would refer us to this comment from her biographer. In “Come be My Light,” we read on pg. 160 that …

She longed to unburden her soul to someone she trusted, yet she did not. She found it harder to communicate with her spiritual director, Father Van Exem. Her great reverence for God’s action in her soul, especially the mystical experiences related to her call, made her reluctant to open her soul to anyone else.

While we can know many of the interior graces bestowed on God’s saints through their revelation of them, you will find in Mother’s life that she was very silent and private about them, and did not leave the Church a testimony of God’s action within her. We do know of her vow to refuse God nothing, but little else.

This is the point I have tried several times to convey in this thread – that one may love and serve God in all of humanity, as did Mother Teresa, but wisely and lawfully limit oneself to intimate friendships, preferring that God alone be the bond that unites them and draws the person into that relationship for His greater honor and glory.

 

[elts1956]

KingAlfred,

Assuming you meant that Mother Teresa did not open herself to many intimate friendships, I would refer us to this comment from her biographer. In “Come be My Light,” we read on pg. 160 that …

While we can know many of the interior graces bestowed on God’s saints through their revelation of them, you will find in Mother’s life that she was very silent and private about them, and did not leave the Church a testimony of God’s action within her. We do know of her vow to refuse God nothing, but little else.

This is the point I have tried several times to convey in this thread – that one may love and serve God in all of humanity, as did Mother Teresa, but wisely and lawfully limit oneself to intimate friendships, preferring that God alone be the bond that unites them and draws the person into that relationship for His greater honor and glory.

Hello Joysong. I agree. The fire burning within fed by love cannot be destroyed.

 

[InLight247]

by** Joysong**
Assuming you meant that Mother Teresa did not open herself to many intimate friendships, I would refer us to this comment from her biographer. In “Come be My Light,” we read on pg. 160 that …

She longed to unburden her soul to someone she trusted, yet she did not

. She found it harder to communicate with her spiritual director, Father Van Exem. Her great reverence for God’s action in her soul, especially the mystical experiences related to her call, made her reluctant to open her soul to anyone else.

I just came back to town and tried to read this long thread that I did not follow up for the past three days. I would say that the above quote of Mother Teresa made so much sense to me.

And what you said below:

This is the point I have tried several times to convey in this thread – that one may love and serve God in all of humanity, as did Mother Teresa, but wisely and lawfully limit oneself to intimate friendships, preferring that God alone be the bond that unites them and draws the person into that relationship for His greater honor and glory.

I find often times we will not understand what others are talking about unless we have had similar experiences.

I like to add to your key words above “preferring that God alone be the bond” with “unless one finds another like-minded person who understands and shares the profound inner spirituality.” That is a rare case.

 

[KingAlfred]

I’m not following you. What did you mean by “that?” That she lived what she taught? That she had few intimate friendships among those she served? That she found Jesus in the “poorest of the poor?”

And what did you mean by she might not have believed in God?

I’m referring to the recent Mother Teresa revelation, which indicated she told her confessor in Rome that she felt no sense of God in her life. Haven’t you heard of this? This is my question: how could she have seen ‘Jesus’ in poor people when she had no sense of Jesus in her own spirituality? It seems disjointed. Don’t get me wrong. I admire her greatly and have read most of her books. But…I wonder what motivated her if she had no sense of God.

 

[Joysong]

Hi InLight,

You will be as surprised as I was to stumble on this, but all of a sudden, tonight I had a desire to read St. Catherine of Genoa’s Treatise on Purgatory which I have never seen before. And this was the paragraph that jumped out at me at the beginning of her treatise. It seems the Lord would have me share it here. I know how much you will appreciate it.

*Exclamations of the Soul.–Our Lord demands the cause of her surprise, and questions her concerning her enjoyment in the company of spiritual persons, and of the pleasing conversations held with them. *

The Lord. Why do I behold you thus changed? What new thing have you seen that kindles in you such a flame of love? Hitherto you have seemed ready to break through the body in order to find your love, by reason of the great delight and sweet enjoyment you tasted, together with many other of your friends, with whom you were united in the bonds of that sweet and winning love; but now I see you pausing and bewildered, and caring to converse with no one.

Until now this Soul had often occupied herself in conversing with her spiritual friends on the divine love, until it seemed to them as if they were already in paradise. Oh, how sweet were these colloquies! Both he who spoke and he who listened were fed alike upon that spiritual, sweet, and delicious food, and were not satisfied to see time pass so quickly while they talked, but all inflamed and burning, could neither speak nor separate, and seemed as if beside themselves. O feasts of love! O food most exquisite! What delicious viands, what sweet union, what divine company! They spoke only of the love of God, of its operations, and how all hindrances to it might be removed. All that took place between them was so clearly seen to be from God and for the benefit of souls, that no one could think otherwise.

catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/catherinegenoa/catherinegenoa6.cfm#TREATISE%20ON%20PURGATORY

 

[Joysong]

I’m referring to the recent Mother Teresa revelation, which indicated she told her confessor in Rome that she felt no sense of God in her life. Haven’t you heard of this? This is my question: how could she have seen ‘Jesus’ in poor people when she had no sense of Jesus in her own spirituality? It seems disjointed. Don’t get me wrong. I admire her greatly and have read most of her books. But…I wonder what motivated her if she had no sense of God.

Hello KingAlfred, thanks for replying.

I think this is what InLight was referring to in her last post, when she said, “unless one finds another like-minded person who understands and shares the profound inner spirituality.” That is a rare case.

Unless you are familiar with true darkness of soul which some of our greatest saints experienced, or read about this mystical deprivation of God’s presence, it would be difficult to comprehend, such as you are now questioning. Her biographer mentioned that because she endured it for many years beyond the deep purgative stage required for Divine Union, it was for her a ‘reparation’ and sacrifice that enabled her to win many graces for those she ministered to, and for those who were called to her Order. Other saints, particularly foundresses, suffered this privation of God’s sensed presence. They are ‘victim souls.’

It doesn’t mean that she didn’t know God, love Him, follow Him – but she had no sensed awareness or enjoyment of His presence, which for a saint like her would be a tremendous longing and suffering. I can find the description from the author for you if you need it, but I’m trying to quickly answer you before you go off line. Do you have “Come be My Light?”