Should we be willing to follow the truth where ever it leds us? Yes or No

[wcknight]

We may not be able to speak with absolute certainty, BUT we can still speak about whether the underlying Truth exists.

In logic and in Math there is only one absolute truth, either it is or it is not, and either a statement or argument is true or it is false. In religion there is also only one absolute truth that we need to determine, either God exists or He does not.

In Astrophysics, no one has seen a black hole, but they know such a thing exists because of all the events that point to such an object. No one knows with absolute certainty that black holes are there, they can theorize and surmise but no one has ever seen one and probably will not in our lifetime. It may be that at some future time, it can be proved with some degree of certainty.

We can see some of the events that indicate that God exists, unusual events (as in miracle cures etc), creation, life itself, love, apparitions, people who have experienced God personally (as in some of the saints and even al the thousands or millions of folks who claim to have God intervening in some large or small way in their life)

In either case, are all of these folks delusional or lying ?

You have to answer for yourself, what kind of evidence is acceptable ? Have you somehow refined your definition of evidence to exclude what may reasonably be considered rational ?

God shows us all the evidence we need. BUT if you choose to ignore all evidence anyway, then He can’t help you.

There is a truism that says, to a believer no evidence is necessary, to a skeptic, no amount of evidence is ever enough.

IF you are truly looking for God, you will undoubtedly find Him, guaranteed. BUT if you really don’t want to find Him, you never will.

I offer to you my atheist challenge, get a miraculous medal, wear or keep it for one full year. IF at the end of that time you are not convinced of the Truth of the Catholic faith, come back on these boards and gloat all you want, that it’s all hogwash. Send me an email with an address and I will send one to you free.

You have absolutely nothing to lose except your disbelief (is that even a word ?). IF you really are not afraid of the Truth, you will take me up on this.

Christ’s Peace.
wc

 

[AnAtheist]

wcknight:

and either a statement or argument is true or it is false.

I am glad you said that. Truth alone is a meaningless term. A statement may be true. If so, we speak of truth.

In religion there is also only one absolute truth that we need to determine, either God exists or He does not.

Well, that’s one question of religion. There are others. Like what kind of god exists, or how many.

In Astrophysics, no one has seen a black hole, but they know such a thing exists because of all the events that point to such an object.

There is empirical evidence for black holes and theoretical models fitting into the observable universe. So it is valid to assume them.

We can see some of the events that indicate that God exists, unusual events (as in miracle cures etc), creation, life itself, love, apparitions,

All this could be explained otherwise or by other gods, but anyway

people who have experienced God personally (as in some of the saints and even al the thousands or millions of folks who claim to have God intervening in some large or small way in their life)
In either case, are all of these folks delusional or lying ?

this is somewhat different. There are as many people claiming to have experienced Allah, the Mother goddess, aliens, and a bazillion of other spiritual things. What about them?

You have to answer for yourself, what kind of evidence is acceptable ?

Easy. It must be reproducable.

There is a truism that says, to a believer no evidence is necessary, to a skeptic, no amount of evidence is ever enough.

That is true. But skeptics at least are willing to reconsider their position, if contradicting evidence shows up.

I offer to you my atheist challenge, get a miraculous medal, wear or keep it for one full year. …]
IF you really are not afraid of the Truth, you will take me up on this.

I’ve been wearing a Thor’s Hammer for several years now, but I don’t believe in Him, yet He is a far more adorable god than yours. So what’s the point in keeping just another magical item?

 

[Lindalearning]

We need to follow the truth (since God is Truth who else is there to follow?), BUT we must constantly seek to know the truth more fully. Some truths are revealed in greater depth over time. Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies, but not as expected.

Truths need a context to be fully explained. If we know only part of the context, we know only part of the truth. God keeps revealing, we must keep seeking, and He promised we will find!

Truth? Can a 30 foot ladder fit in 5 foot garage? In atomic physics we prove yes! Truth? Matter at one temperature is either solid, liquid, or gas? Mix cornstarch with water and it’s solid when you hit it and liquid when left undisturbed. 2 rocks plus 2 rocks equals 4, but 2 rabbits plus two rabbits can equal many more than 4.

I sought for a truth to use as a loophole in contraception teachings and discovered a truth about God for us in Theology of the Body greater than the loss of “freedom” I feared and posing new “truths” I need to pursue.

I think an infinite God who is infinite Truth will take an inifinity to know fully (or maybe just an infinity of love ). If we quit following, how will we know what the full truth is?

Consider the miraculous medal a “science” experiment and open your mind to the possibility of finding more Truth. Good wishes and prayers for you!

• Lindalearning

 

[wcknight]

AnAtheist:

I am glad you said that. Truth alone is a meaningless term. A statement may be true. If so, we speak of truth.

Well, that’s one question of religion. There are others. Like what kind of god exists, or how many.

There is empirical evidence for black holes and theoretical models fitting into the observable universe. So it is valid to assume them.

All this could be explained otherwise or by other gods, but anyway

this is somewhat different. There are as many people claiming to have experienced Allah, the Mother goddess, aliens, and a bazillion of other spiritual things. What about them?

Easy. It must be reproducable.

That is true. But skeptics at least are willing to reconsider their position, if contradicting evidence shows up.


I’ve been wearing a Thor’s Hammer for several years now, but I don’t believe in Him, yet He is a far more adorable god than yours. So what’s the point in keeping just another magical item?

For one Thor’s hammer doesn’t represent a real entity, Mary’s medal does.

The point is, IF you still don’t believe after a year, you will know for certain that it was all bravado.

We claim the medal has “repeatable” effect on those who wear or keep it, regardless of whether you believe it works or not and regardless of whether you are willing to listen or not, and regardless of whether you having an open mind or not.

You can totally disprove our claim, and you can then have the excuse that you tried to find God by trying this medal thing and it didn’t work. When the time comes that God asks you why did you not believe in Him, you can say, I tried with the medal but it didn’t work.

There were no assurances with the Thor deal because it simply doesn’t work. We’re saying the Miraculous Medal does work, guaranteed because Mary says so (not to mention that it has converted many more stuborn souls than yourself). There a big difference there.

IF you really have no fear of the Truth, you will simply take up the challenge and prove us wrong.

wc

 

[AnAtheist]

wcknight:

We claim the medal has “repeatable” effect on those who wear or keep it, regardless of whether you believe it works or not and regardless of whether you are willing to listen or not, and regardless of whether you having an open mind or not.

You can totally disprove our claim, and you can then have the excuse that you tried to find God by trying this medal thing and it didn’t work.

Come on, you know as well as I do, that a negative outcome of this “experiment” would not change your opinion, would it? So I won’t disprove anything to you, just to me.

When the time comes that God asks you why did you not believe in Him, you can say, I tried with the medal but it didn’t work.

And how many years of purgatory would spare me that testimony?

There were no assurances with the Thor deal because it simply doesn’t work. We’re saying the Miraculous Medal does work, guaranteed because Mary says so (not to mention that it has converted many more stuborn souls than yourself). There a big difference there.

No there isn’t. Your medal is just a medal, and it would work someone who already believes, it would work, but not on someone like me. As do mantras, hammers, crosses, and whetever else people wear around their necks.

IF you really have no fear of the Truth, you will simply take up the challenge and prove us wrong.

This sounds like a school yard challenge. Do it, or you are a chicken.

 

[dennisknapp]

Anatheist,

Honestly, to claim to be an athiest takes such a leap of faith.

If you were a soft agnostic that would at least be somewhat tenable, but outright atheism?

You would have to absolutely sure God does not exist to hold that position. Can you do that? Can you be 100% sure God does not exists?

Now, you may say that I have to be 100% sure God does exist to be a thiest, but that is not so. Your position is an absolute negation, as were my position is an affirmation that relies heavily on faith.

It could be possible that God does not exist, but I have both faith and reason that tells me He does exist.

Peace

 

[AnAtheist]

dennisknapp:

If you were a soft agnostic that would at least be somewhat tenable, but outright atheism?

You would have to absolutely sure God does not exist to hold that position. Can you do that? Can you be 100% sure God does not exists?

You’re right. My view needs some clarification. I am agnostic towards the question whether ther is a god, ie some kind of god. But I am strongly atheistic towards certain specific god images like the Christian One. I hope, you see the difference.
.
For all practical means agnostic and atheistic positions are identical btw, eg there is nothing to worship in a specific way.

 

[iwonder]

Yes, we should and the catechism tells us that we should be willing to follow the truth no matter where He leads, the truth being the fullness of Christ in His Church. Following the truth does not mean telling every self proclaimed prophet or self ordained priest “Hey you’ve got a good point. Maybe the Lord is in error on this point.” This is where the confusion comes in.

 

[wcknight]

AnAtheist:

Come on, you know as well as I do, that a negative outcome of this “experiment” would not change your opinion, would it? So I won’t disprove anything to you, just to me.

And how many years of purgatory would spare me that testimony?

No there isn’t. Your medal is just a medal, and it would work someone who already believes, it would work, but not on someone like me. As do mantras, hammers, crosses, and whetever else people wear around their necks.

This sounds like a school yard challenge. Do it, or you are a chicken.

And what scares you so much about a positive outcome ? Would it be so bad to know that God really cares about you and just maybe His Church was right all along ?

A negative outcome would be disappointing, but I’m not the one at risk. You claim not to be afraid of following the truth as your topic implies, but obviously your bravado is unfounded. We think we are 100% right and you think you are 100% right, well let’s find out.

It’s not a matter of being chicken, it whether you really want to continue living a lie or under false pretenses. Do you really like your assumption that there is no God so much, that you are not even remotely interested in finding out if that is even a valid assumption ? and do you really hate God and hate the Chruch so much that you are not interested in finding out the truth ?

IF you go a year and are not convinced, then you will have shaken some of us out of our sureness. We won’t be able to make the claims that we do. We will have to admit that what we propose doesn’t work.

You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. I will even sweeten the pot with offering you a side wager. IF you are still an atheist/agnostic after one year, I will paypal $10 to your email account or send you cash. PLUS you can come back here to gloat about how you both proved us wrong and got ten bucks to boot.

If you’re not, you pay me nothing, but you come back on this forum and state what if anything happened. You risk nothing !

BTW this will have to wait a couple of weeks because I go on vaction next week, plus, I don’t a ready supply of medal(s) available just yet. But email me, and we can set up the details.

wc

 

[iwonder]

wcknight:

A negative outcome would be disappointing, but I’m not the one at risk. You claim not to be afraid of following the truth as your topic implies, but obviously your bravado is unfounded. We think we are 100% right and you think you are 100% right, well let’s find out.

IF you go a year and are not convinced, then you will have shaken some of us out of our sureness. We won’t be able to make the claims that we do. We will have to admit that what we propose doesn’t work.

You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. I will even sweeten the pot with offering you a side wager. IF you are still an atheist/agnostic after one year, I will paypal $10 to your email account or send you cash. PLUS you can come back here a gloat about how you both proved us wrong and got ten bucks to boot.

If you’re not, you pay me nothing, but you come back on this forum and state what if anything happened. You risk nothing !

wc

I used to do that with my Dad. My mom and I were Catholics and he was an atheist. Long after my mom died, we were having the same old tired discussion, and I lost my temper. I told him that he was absolutely being arrogant for stating that he knew more about the correctness of the Church and the existence of God then the billions of people who had proclaimed God over the centuries. That his behavior was nothing mroe than arrogance when he knew, who had never studied the Church, more about the Church and God then those who studied God night and day for all of their lives.
Two months later he called me up to say that my charge of arrogance had upset him and he was willing to concede that he might be so. And that he had joined the RCIA. My Dad was baptised two years later in the Church and when he died, he died in full communion. And I breathed a great sigh of relief.

 

[Jesus4Me]

YES, of course!!! :yup:

 

[wcknight]

iwonder,

My son is in the same boat as anAtheist. He (my son) will be getting a medal soon also. Mary has never let me down. I know it works. Folks just have to give it a chance. How you do that, is the big problem.

I can only try to point them in the right direction. What they do after that is up to the Lord. Kids think they have all the answers (I guess so do we).

wc

 

[dennisknapp]

AnAtheist:

You’re right. My view needs some clarification. I am agnostic towards the question whether ther is a god, ie some kind of god. But I am strongly atheistic towards certain specific god images like the Christian One. I hope, you see the difference.
.
For all practical means agnostic and atheistic positions are identical btw, eg there is nothing to worship in a specific way.

I will be starting a new thread on atheism and the concept of the Christian God, so please join in.

About agnosticism and atheism being identical regarding whether there is nothing to worship in a specific way… How can this be?

Atheism claims to know there is nothing to worship in specific way, not agosticism. Agosticism claims to not *know *if there is something to worship, big difference.

Now I do admit that hard agnosticism claims that you cannot know if there is something to worship, but this position is just as irrational as the atheistic position, for it claims more than it can prove within its own system.

Peace

 

[AnAtheist]

dennisknapp:

I will be starting a new thread on atheism and the concept of the Christian God, so please join in.

Ok, will be there in a minute.

Now I do admit that hard agnosticism claims that you cannot know if there is something to worship, but this position is just as irrational as the atheistic position, for it claims more than it can prove within its own system.

Whether you say there is nothing, don’t know what, or cannot know what to worship, doesn’t matter - practically you don’t worship, you don’t join a religion, and you don’t try to please a diety, as you have no basis whatsoever on how to do all that.
Philosophically of course there is a big difference.

 

[AnAtheist]

wcknight:

And what scares you so much about a positive outcome ? Would it be so bad to know that God really cares about you and just maybe His Church was right all along ?

I am not scared. I just have nothing to prove in that regard. I don’t have to throw an anvil into my TV set to prove that it will be crushed afterwards. And I don’t have to throw a feather against it to prove it will survive.

You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. I will even sweeten the pot with offering you a side wager. IF you are still an atheist/agnostic after one year, I will paypal $10 to your email account or send you cash. PLUS you can come back here to gloat about how you both proved us wrong and got ten bucks to boot.

I neither want nor need your money nor do I want to gloat about anybody. That is completely beside the point.
And yes, I have something to lose: Because I am somewhat peculiar about what jewelry I wear, I don’t want to wear a magic medal for a whole year. I would feel ridiculous for a year, and that’s not worth it.
Besides, would you wear some pagan, satanic or whatever symbols around your neck, just to show that you are not affected by them?

 

[dennisknapp]

AnAtheist:

Ok, will be there in a minute.

Whether you say there is nothing, don’t know what, or cannot know what to worship, doesn’t matter - practically you don’t worship, you don’t join a religion, and you don’t try to please a diety, as you have no basis whatsoever on how to do all that.
Philosophically of course there is a big difference.

I was refering to the philosophical concepts of atheism, soft and hard agnosticism. In this regard only the soft agnostic is truely honest. The other two systems bite of more then they can chew.

Peace

 

[wcknight]

AnAtheist:

I am not scared. I just have nothing to prove in that regard. I don’t have to throw an anvil into my TV set to prove that it will be crushed afterwards. And I don’t have to throw a feather against it to prove it will survive.

I neither want nor need your money nor do I want to gloat about anybody. That is completely beside the point.
And yes, I have something to lose: Because I am somewhat peculiar about what jewelry I wear, I don’t want to wear a magic medal for a whole year. I would feel ridiculous for a year, and that’s not worth it.
Besides, would you wear some pagan, satanic or whatever symbols around your neck, just to show that you are not affected by them?

You don’t have to wear it. Put it in your wallet and forget about it for a year. And no. I would not keep anything Satanic. The difference is, one is good for you the other is not.

And there is a huge difference in tossing an anvil at a TV set and keeping a medal. We know the medal works, magic has nothing to do with it. Mystical maybe but magic no, and there is a difference. The existence of God can hardly be so easily proved or disproved as tossing something at a tv set. BUT supposed you tossed your anvil at the tv and it stopped in mid air. It is a freak act of nature, or did gravity suddenly suspend itself ?

That is basically what St Anthony of Padua did. A worker was falling off a building when St., Anthony stopped him in mid -air. He had been order by his superiors not to perform any more miracles in public. So he rushed to ask his superiors for permission to save this man, When he got permission, he lowered the man to safety.

And you DO have something to prove or disporve. IF as you say there is no God, then the medal will have no effect on you whatsoever. IF as we say there is a God, and specifically a Christian God, then medal will have done what you think is impossible, ie make you think otherwise.

I won’t speculate as to whether there are any atheists or agnostics in Heaven, but I would probably say there probably a bunch of them down below, (there are probably a bunch of bad Catholics and protestants down there too but that is another matter). Whether any of these souls could have avoided hell is the question. With a medal we believe all could have been saved.

Your supposition that neither Heaven or Hell exists is a bad one. We think it could be very dangerous for anyone to deny God. There are a few former atheists who have posted on these boards. Maybe thay can convince you also.

IF you are interested in the truth then you will examine all possibilities. To reject any possiblity outright is at best illogical and at worst foolish.

wc