Should we celebrate Winter Solstice?

[Mayita30]

Several well-known religions and cultures have holidays in December. Since the US is not and has never been a Catholic country, we can’t expect only our holidays to be recognized. The US is now a very multi-cultural country, and if the OPs area is anything like mine, 3 or 4 different well-known holidays could be celebrated by the class in question.

As I said earlier, this is very likely the teacher’s way of having a class party without running up against any school-district rules. The winter solstice is a specific date marking a scientific event. She could just as easily be celebrating the discovery of radium.

Wasn’t the US originally a CHristian nation founded by Christian men, am I mistaken on this one ? If so why change the value system, why take away crosses in every classroom, why take away Christmas tree, erase God in every monument… I think people are just erasing history

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Well, this is an opportunity for you to teach your own children a history lesson on how Christmas (which was not even on the calendar until about 273), got to be placed where it is today. No, it is not the calendar date when the Church Fathers actually thought Our Lord was born.

Here is one account of how both the feast an the date were ultimately chosen:
christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html

The teacher could note that many religions have festivals to mark the turning points of the solar year, which is cultural knowledge that well-educated people ought to have, whether they celebrate these festivals themselves or not.

This is not a bad time to teach your children how our liturgical year is based on the solar year. Christmas is loosely associated with the physical turn of the seasons, but Easter is calculated very directly by use of both solar and lunar calendars. It is quite interesting.

I think this is good balanced advice.

 

[polki]

I was told that Dec 25th was picked as the date of Christ’s birth because it is 9 months from March 25, which is when we celebrate the Annunciation. That date (of the Annunciation) was picked to be March 25th because it was believed (accepted?) to be the date that Jesus died (I don’t know how this was figured out). And, going along with that certain way of thinking (again I am no expert, just poorly relating what I was told) that if you live a perfect life, you would die on the same day you are created.

Therefore it goes like this: Jesus was conceived March 25, born Dec 25th and died March 25th because he was perfect. If that is indeed the case, it wouldn’t be related to the winter solstice. At least, that is my understanding, but I apologize I can’t explain my sources that well. I’d have to research it more. Maybe another poster on here has heard this and can explain it better?

Anyway, I wouldn’t “celebrate” the winter solstice. Taking about what it is would be OK, and even better if food was served. .

 

[EasterJoy]

Wasn’t the US originally a CHristian nation founded by Christian men, am I mistaken on this one ? If so why change the value system, why take away crosses in every classroom, why take away Christmas tree, erase God in every monument… I think people are just erasing history

The Founding Fathers ran long into Christians and the non-Christians were mostly deists, but that doesn’t mean they believed in observing Christmas as a religious holy day. There were a lot of free-thinking Enlightenment sorts among them, Jefferson and Franklin being notables. Many Americans of their time were Puritan, too, and wouldn’t have gone in for the trappings of a “papist” Christmas.
adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Jefferson was willing to concede that there might have been some sort of tax census around the time Jesus was born, but he rejected the angelic messengers and all of the supernatural stuff:
beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/62/The_Jefferson_Bible_The_Life__Morals_of_Jesus_of_Nazareth_1.html

Franklin was an admirer of the moral teachings of Jesus, but was not willing to go so far as to say he believed the Lord was in fact divine. (A stance I believe to be patronizing to the extreme, but oh, well.)

As for Christmas trees, the English court didn’t even have them until 1800, with the English aristocrats following suit in the coming decades. Christmas trees didn’t catch on with the general English population until about Victoria and Albert’s time. The White House didn’t have what was called an “official tree” until 1929, and before the trees the presidents did sometimes put up were criticized by some not because they were Christian but because the custom was German! (Others criticized the wastefulness of killing a tree…this is not the first time the American public has given public expressions of Christmas spirit mixed reviews!)

 

[EasterJoy]

Anyway, I wouldn’t “celebrate” the winter solstice…

The summer solstice, though, that is worth getting the barby out to celebrate!

Seriously, though, the actual solstice falls on a Saturday at around 5 pm…they aren’t even going to be celebrating when it happens! This sounds like a last-day-of-school party to me.

 

[CelesteHope87]

Well, this is an opportunity for you to teach your own children a history lesson on how Christmas (which was not even on the calendar until about 273), got to be placed where it is today. No, it is not the calendar date when the Church Fathers actually thought Our Lord was born.

Here is one account of how both the feast an the date were ultimately chosen:
christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html

The teacher could note that many religions have festivals to mark the turning points of the solar year, which is cultural knowledge that well-educated people ought to have, whether they celebrate these festivals themselves or not.

This is not a bad time to teach your children how our liturgical year is based on the solar year. Christmas is loosely associated with the physical turn of the seasons, but Easter is calculated very directly by use of both solar and lunar calendars. It is quite interesting.

 

[choose_to_love]

Another, more persuasive to me, thought on how Dec. 25 came to be accepted:

touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

 

[Skadi]

Wasn’t the US originally a CHristian nation founded by Christian men, am I mistaken on this one ? If so why change the value system, why take away crosses in every classroom, why take away Christmas tree, erase God in every monument… I think people are just erasing history

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible…Some books on Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist.”
-Benjamin Franklin, “Toward the Mystery” (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice…he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers…Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

“As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of of Musselmen (Muslims), - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
-Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by John Adams

Note the “signed into law” portion beneath the quote from the Treaty of Tripoli. Not only was our country created without though of its religion, it has specifically stated that it is NOT based on Christianity. One can argue that America was founded on the principles of Deism, belief in a higher power, but not on Christianity.

 

[on_the_hill]

But then I think, it’s just a change of season thing. She’s in fourth grade, learning about seasons, habitats, environments -

I don’t see anything wrong with it. If anything, our Pagan/Wiccan friends would be the ones to be upset for improperly marking one of their holidays, and clearly they’re not upset.

I always felt winter, as a season, gets overshadowed by Christmas–HOLD ON A SECOND!! I’m not in any way saying that Christmas ought to be de-emphasized.
However, there’s a lot of beauty in the season of winter and the commercialization of Christmas has drawn the rest of the season into a consumeristic extravaganza.

“Jingle Bells.” Is that a Christmas song? No. But do you ever hear it outside the context of “Christmas?” No.

“Frosty the Snowman.” Christmas? No.

And there are others. So I say, go ahead and mark the Solstice. Teach about the astronomy of the event. Teach about the change of seasons. Teach about how in olden times it was important for people to have a celebration during the darkest days of the year. Teach about how it literally signified that the days would be getting longer–which is vital if you rely on the sun for your survival (crops, livestock, etc.)

And so what if the teacher says, “Some people still celebrate the Solstice as a religious event…” and mentions Pagans or Wiccans. Simply hearing of their existence isn’t going to cause children to join them. And if it does, there are certainly more issues involved with the children’s experience with Catholicism than can be attributed to a few moments on one day in their lives.

Harrumph. :hey_bud: /rant

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I think you’re confusing the fact of the solstices and equinoxes with the religious celebrations surrounding them. It is a fact that we have a shortest day of the year, a longest day of the year, and two days where the light and dark are the same. Those are cool facts and definitely worth a child learning about. The party is probably just a capstone to a unit on the movement of the earth or seasons.

Then there’d the religious aspect. Some people attribute very spiritual things to those days. The odds of that coming up are about as close to zero as it gets, I’d say.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t see anything wrong with it. If anything, our Pagan/Wiccan friends would be the ones to be upset for improperly marking one of their holidays, and clearly they’re not upset.

I always felt winter, as a season, gets overshadowed by Christmas–HOLD ON A SECOND!! I’m not in any way saying that Christmas ought to be de-emphasized.
However, there’s a lot of beauty in the season of winter and the commercialization of Christmas has drawn the rest of the season into a consumeristic extravaganza.

“Jingle Bells.” Is that a Christmas song? No. But do you ever hear it outside the context of “Christmas?” No.

“Frosty the Snowman.” Christmas? No.

And there are others. So I say, go ahead and mark the Solstice. Teach about the astronomy of the event. Teach about the change of seasons. Teach about how in olden times it was important for people to have a celebration during the darkest days of the year. Teach about how it literally signified that the days would be getting longer–which is vital if you rely on the sun for your survival (crops, livestock, etc.)

And so what if the teacher says, “Some people still celebrate the Solstice as a religious event…” and mentions Pagans or Wiccans. Simply hearing of their existence isn’t going to cause children to join them. And if it does, there are certainly more issues involved with the children’s experience with Catholicism than can be attributed to a few moments on one day in their lives.

Harrumph. :hey_bud: /rant

I could see your point if the school had a Christmas party. But dollars to donuts, they are either not allowed or strongly discouraged. So your whole winter is overshadowed by Christmas point is thrown out the window…

 

[Barbara_Ann_Bau]

I suffer from Seasonal Adjustment Disorder. The Winter solstice is what I refer to as bottom day offen I do not get out of bed that day. If I haven’t started counting the days until Easter I do so on this day.
Also one thing to remember is that about this time the Kids are really getting antsy. The shorter days mean less time outdoors. So there is a need to blow off steam. What better than to learn about the conditions that cause them to be antsy

 

[on_the_hill]

I could see your point if the school had a Christmas party. But dollars to donuts, they are either not allowed or strongly discouraged. So your whole winter is overshadowed by Christmas point is thrown out the window…

Mmmm…no. I don’t agree. The entirety of Oct. 31 to Dec. 25 is entirely focused on Christmas. Granted, it’s commercial, but you can’t deny seeing Christmas decorations in the stores on Nov. 1 or even before.

 

[WiccanWoman]

I could see your point if the school had a Christmas party. But dollars to donuts, they are either not allowed or strongly discouraged. So your whole winter is overshadowed by Christmas point is thrown out the window…

What part of this being a PUBLIC SCHOOL do some posters not get? It is a public school. There are public school teachers in my family. Public schools are just that – PUBLIC******. To be a certified public school, religions of any/all types are not included as lessons in the curriculum and they are not “celebrated.” Any “celebration” as the O/P describes is not/should not be religious at all, and if it turned out to BE religious, I’d be the first one down at the office having my say about it being inappropriate for all the children.

First and foremost, the Winter Solstice is a day that is scientifically marked on a particular but varying day annually. The Winter Solstice in and of itself is NOT a religious holiday. It is not like Hannukah, not like Christmas, not like Eid, not like Kwanzaa, not like Yule — which is MY religious holiday by the way, and which YES, just so happens to fall on whatever day is the scientific Winter Solstice in any given year.

Those who want to have their children celebrate religious holidays in school must either home-school them or send them to the private schools of their choosing. Marking those holidays as cultural days is another story. I think public schools could teach all religions in a factual way, in a class similar to history or social studies, with all of our cultural differences and similarities which would include religious beliefs, practices and holidays. Would that be OK with you, or would you wish to pull your children out of such classes because they would be teaching your children about ways and beliefs that are not your own, and teaching only your religion would be permissible?

There is no place for your religion - OR MINE - in a public school. Religions of all kinds are to be taught in Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, Temples, Meeting Houses, etc., and in homes and schools and within families associated with those places. Those who stomp their feet and insist that the United States of America is a “Christian country” and all rules, regulations, laws, businesses, schools and households must follow only the Christian way should take a look at how well that’s working in the Middle East today where people of your faith - AND MINE - are being put into prisons or tortured and killed for standing up for that they privately believe. Do you really want that to happen HERE? (There is another ongoing thread somewhere on the forums about “how would you like a Catholic state?” - you might want to check it out.)

“First they came …” is a famous statement and provocative poem attributed to pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the sloth of German intellectuals following the Nazis’ rise to power and the subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group. There is some disagreement over the exact wording of the quotation and when it was created; the content of the quotation may have been presented differently by Niemöller on different occasions. According to the Martin-Niemöller-Foundation the text is as follows:

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Socialists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

(taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_… )

What has all that to do with the ongoing discussion? Well, this:

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
by Evelyn Beatrice Hall (1868 – after 1939) - her quote often is cited to describe the principle of freedom of speech.

As an American citizen - and a Pagan/Wiccan woman - I will defend all of your rights, and I will fight for them until the day I die. I would step between a bully and your child to defend your child’s belief in Jesus Christ as her Savior and King. I would hide your entire family in my home to keep you from harm should a war against your religion break-out, and I would smuggle a Priest to see you even if it jeopardized my own life. I would go hungry and spend my last dollar to see your family fed. In fact, I’ve done it, and I believe that the best act of charity is to give to those who are not your own kind. In return, I would wish only for the same support and respect from you, my brothers and sisters in Humanity.

 

[Captain_America]

I think the above poster confuses “public” with “neutral.” This is not the case. America has always been pretty much a Judeo-Christian society, and people will want to celebrate Christmas and will be unconcerned about holidays of tiny minorities. That’s how it goes.

(And to be honest, in a democracy, if you have enough people wanting certain policies, there is a political and moral validity to this, even if the policy is stupid. Consider Oliver Wendell Holmes’ views on democracy).

The issue of separation of church and state, to those who have studied constitutional history, really rests on the idea of preventing the state from enforcing religious belief on others. (By the way, this is why the HHS Mandate is so horrible: the state is pushing antithetical values). At the end of the day, though, values are values, and the old late 19th century dream of a Value-less Secular State is a foolish notion. . . such a thing can never exist.

The winter solstice is an astronomical event. Do you celebrate meteor showers? sunspots? eclipses?

If you want to party, any excuse will do, imho.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

What part of this being a PUBLIC SCHOOL do some posters not get? It is a public school. There are public school teachers in my family. Public schools are just that – PUBLIC******. To be a certified public school, religions of any/all types are not included as lessons in the curriculum and they are not “celebrated.” Any “celebration” as the O/P describes is not/should not be religious at all, and if it turned out to BE religious, I’d be the first one down at the office having my say about it being inappropriate for all the children.

First and foremost, the Winter Solstice is a day that is scientifically marked on a particular but varying day annually. The Winter Solstice in and of itself is NOT a religious holiday. It is not like Hannukah, not like Christmas, not like Eid, not like Kwanzaa, not like Yule — which is MY religious holiday by the way, and which YES, just so happens to fall on whatever day is the scientific Winter Solstice in any given year.

Those who want to have their children celebrate religious holidays in school must either home-school them or send them to the private schools of their choosing. Marking those holidays as cultural days is another story. I think public schools could teach all religions in a factual way, in a class similar to history or social studies, with all of our cultural differences and similarities which would include religious beliefs, practices and holidays. Would that be OK with you, or would you wish to pull your children out of such classes because they would be teaching your children about ways and beliefs that are not your own, and teaching only your religion would be permissible?

There is no place for your religion - OR MINE - in a public school. Religions of all kinds are to be taught in Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, Temples, Meeting Houses, etc., and in homes and schools and within families associated with those places. Those who stomp their feet and insist that the United States of America is a “Christian country” and all rules, regulations, laws, businesses, schools and households must follow only the Christian way should take a look at how well that’s working in the Middle East today where people of your faith - AND MINE - are being put into prisons or tortured and killed for standing up for that they privately believe. Do you really want that to happen HERE? (There is another ongoing thread somewhere on the forums about “how would you like a Catholic state?” - you might want to check it out.)

“First they came …” is a famous statement and provocative poem attributed to pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the sloth of German intellectuals following the Nazis’ rise to power and the subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group. There is some disagreement over the exact wording of the quotation and when it was created; the content of the quotation may have been presented differently by Niemöller on different occasions. According to the Martin-Niemöller-Foundation the text is as follows:

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Socialists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

(taken from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_… )

What has all that to do with the ongoing discussion? Well, this:

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
by Evelyn Beatrice Hall (1868 – after 1939) - her quote often is cited to describe the principle of freedom of speech.

As an American citizen - and a Pagan/Wiccan woman - I will defend all of your rights, and I will fight for them until the day I die. I would step between a bully and your child to defend your child’s belief in Jesus Christ as her Savior and King. I would hide your entire family in my home to keep you from harm should a war against your religion break-out, and I would smuggle a Priest to see you even if it jeopardized my own life. I would go hungry and spend my last dollar to see your family fed. In fact, I’ve done it, and I believe that the best act of charity is to give to those who are not your own kind. In return, I would wish only for the same support and respect from you, my brothers and sisters in Humanity.

A key problem with what you say is what our current hyper-PC environment deems as “religious.” Several school systems I am aware of - one of which employes my daughter as a teacher - have forbidden the wearing of the colors red and green, as they are allegedly too tied to Christmas to be acceptable in a public school. Really? Christmas trees, for that matter - beyond the obviously “objectionable” name, have a pagan origin and have no Biblical or church significance at all, but have become outlawed due to a kind of “guilt by association.” Realistically no one is expecting nativity scenes in public school, but being able to send a child to school in a red shirt might be nice.

 

[EasterJoy]

Mmmm…no. I don’t agree. The entirety of Oct. 31 to Dec. 25 is entirely focused on Christmas. Granted, it’s commercial, but you can’t deny seeing Christmas decorations in the stores on Nov. 1 or even before.

Before, this year. It wouldn’t be so bad if it were a heart-warming sort of thing–you know, if the non-Christians were seeing instance after instance of the Christians having drives so they could be feeding and finding shelter for twice as many needy people for two months a year–but the avarice and trivialization of the holy day gets wearing for pretty much everyone, Christian or not. I can’t imagine having to work retail and listening to that much non-religious Christmas music. I’d want to run away screaming.

 

[EasterJoy]

A key problem with what you say is what our current hyper-PC environment deems as “religious.” Several school systems I am aware of - one of which employes my daughter as a teacher - have forbidden the wearing of the colors red and green, as they are allegedly too tied to Christmas to be acceptable in a public school. Really? Christmas trees, for that matter - beyond the obviously “objectionable” name, have a pagan origin and have no Biblical or church significance at all, but have become outlawed due to a kind of “guilt by association.” Realistically no one is expecting nativity scenes in public school, but being able to send a child to school in a red shirt might be nice.

You must be kidding. I’m guessing faux white fir trim is also verboten? Lunchbox cookies in the wrong shapes? Fake Vulcan ears? If they didn’t repeal those laws, I think I’d teach my children to habitually use the phrase “Bah, HUMBUG!” Let 'em penalize the kids for that, and then call the local newspaper columnist.

Seriously, though–I’d make an anonymous call to a newspaper columnist about the red and green thing. That seriously deserves all the outside ridicule that can be mustered, and the newspapers and local evening news would be all over that one! I can hear it now, “First the Crips and Bloods, and now Kris Kringle. What about tomorrow? St. Valentine? St Patrick? Stay tuned to hear about a local school district that has banned the showing of Christmas “Colors” in order to protect students from religion…”

 

[EasterJoy]

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible…Some books on Deism fell into my hands…It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist.”
-Benjamin Franklin, “Toward the Mystery” (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice…he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers…Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

“As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of of Musselmen (Muslims), - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
-Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by John Adams

Note the “signed into law” portion beneath the quote from the Treaty of Tripoli. Not only was our country created without though of its religion, it has specifically stated that it is NOT based on Christianity. One can argue that America was founded on the principles of Deism, belief in a higher power, but not on Christianity.

Jefferson did not (as some have reported) pay to have religious missionaries convert native tribes, but he did uphold a treaty of 1803 by which the Federal government paid for a priest and a church for a tribe that was largely Catholic.

“…whereas, The greater part of the said tribe have been baptised and received into the Catholic church to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature. And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church…”

–TREATY WITH THE KASKASKIA, 1803

Jefferson’s concept of the separation of church and state was more one of keeping the state from inhibiting people from their practice or from choosing a religion for them. You’ll not find any instances where he thought the state ought to be interfering with the ability of citizens to practice their religion in public.

This is where the instance of the school prohibiting red and green becomes so out of line. It is one thing to say “We won’t set a child up to choose between cookies with religion or going without cookies in order to avoid participating.” It is quite another to say “A child may not even choose colors in their clothing that could possibly let on what religion they practice.” The latter goes beyond the separation of church and state and all the way to the suppression of religion. I cannot imagine Jefferson wanting the government to have anything like that kind of power!

There was a time when children could have each brought treats from their own ethnic heritage, Christian or not, and each learned about the other that way, but in our times children are also not allowed to bring food to school. Honestly, sometimes I think that those who throw their hands in the air and homeschool purely over the cultural idiocy in public schools are not off the mark.

 

[on_the_hill]

I can’t imagine having to work retail and listening to that much non-religious Christmas music. I’d want to run away screaming.

When I first started working at my current place of employment, about 17 years ago, it was in December.

We have an old intercom system that is tuned to local radio stations. One of them was playing all Christmas music, all the time. True, mostly secular, but a few of the ‘religious’ carols (Oh Come All Ye Faithful, e.g.).

Those few weeks at my new job were very enjoyable. I sat and listened to Christmas music all day long. It was wonderful. My new wife and I traveled to our hometown for Christmas, and it was the last time my mom had a such a magnificent houseful of people.

It was my favorite Christmas, for a number of reasons.

Nowadays, I am so fed up with Christmas carols that I practically avoid them.