Should we hate our father, mother, wife and children, brother and sisters and even ourselves?

[irenaeuslyons]

Now why couldn’t God just say hate familial evil deeds and immoral behavior? That would make more sense and less confusion but you are re-writing scripture thus the Gospel according to Gloria.

As far a evil, According to Isaiah 45:7 God created evil. “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Also, Proverbs 16:4 “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil”. Most apologists assert these must be mistranslations, despite evidence to the contrary, because it is not in God’s nature to perform evil acts as all His acts are good, like wiping out millions of humans, animals and plants in a flood. But if that is true, does that mean we have more free will than God since we are equipped to perform evil or does He choose not to do evil? If so, how do we know if He didn’t change His mind or why not create us in His “image” to have free will but choose not to perform or think evil acts? If God chooses not to help a starving or cancer stricken child then by His nature this is a good choice and we shouldn’t be interfering with His chosen “good” plan but if our innate moral behavior goes against God’s plan, are we to repent and ask for forgiveness for having intervened against His choice?

The verse speaks of God creating the evil of punishment and chastisement, which is completely different than moral evil.

---

When you say “very first Christians” do you mean the disciples and if so what extra-biblical evidence do you have as to these Christian being persecuted besides the bible.
—]
Read the early church fathers. There is a large collection of their writings on newadvent.org

 

[PendingTheist]

I am sorry, you see I am a Catholic and have a Church who helps me to understand the commandments in the way they should be understood for Christians who want to practice their faith. So we also have Jesus who teaches us directly. For example:

The Pharisees will teach to the people not to commit adultery but Jesus goes beyond their teaching, to the root of the problem:

“But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”.Mt 5:28

But let me recommend you the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you can search here for the 10 commandments and more:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm?p=37-chapter17.xhtml%23para2380#

Hope this helps,
Gloria

In Mark 7:3 Jesus mocks the Pharisees for having man-made traditions like washing their hands (God forbid) and gives an example they should be sticking to the law in the Old Testament by condoning the stoning of unruly children. Jesus could have been more compassionate to share basic knowledge of hygiene and save millions of lives and still make his point. That would show omniscience and omnibenevolence don’t you think?

Jesus also makes it impossible to save yourself due to thought crimes like a man lusting a woman is adultery (Matthew 5:28) as you mentioned. Why not a MARRIED man if its adultery and why not a woman lusting a man? You mean to tell me a woman doesn’t lust over those gorgeous men on soap operas and only watch for the plot? That’s like a guy saying he gets Playboy for the articles. Except for arranged marriages, most would not have happened without premarital lust. Can God know lust like us? If not, how is He omniscient and is that fair for Him to judge us with a lack of this knowledge. If He does, how is He all good by his rules? Since Jesus was also human how do you know He didn’t lust? Did Jesus think He sinned and had John the Baptist baptize Him to remove sin or is that when He became divine? If a thought with no action is all that is needed to be guilty of sin does it go the other way around, meaning, if a believer has a good thought, such as to sell all possessions, give all the money to the poor and then leave his or her family to serve the Lord in an indigent country, but not actually do it, do they get rewarded in Heaven?

I appreciate you reading divinely inspired church teachings to help you understand since you can not go by your OWN understanding as per Proverbs 3:5. I, on the other hand, prefer to use my genetics, experience, evidence and knowledge to come to my conclusions. I realize I am becoming my own authority but I can not accept divinely inspired texts without evidence of such besides assertions so I am all that I am left with.

.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Our love for our friends and family should be counted
as HATE in comparison to our LOVE for God, is how
I interpret this apparent inconsistency.

Don’t hate anybody, just at least don’t allow your love
for others to outshine your love for God.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[steve_b]

(I will not answer any objection if you had not read all this first, carefully)
Since theologians do not give a proper answer to this statement, but have to go changing the meaning of the Greek verb to hate (miseo μισεῶ ) I decided to give an answer. AND THE ANSWER IS NO

“Whoever comes to me and does not **hate **father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:26

But then we are told again by Jesus in another place:

“All **who hate **a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them.” 1 Jn 3:15

OR

“Those who say, “I love God,” and **hate **their brothers or sisters, are liars” 1 Jn 4:20

OR

“Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall** love **your neighbor as yourself.” Mt 19:19

AND

“For no one ever hates his own body” Ephesians 5:29

**Here there are no contractions to the first statement, which is true: we should hate our family members, ups! **
But in which way we are to hate them if we just read all the other quotes which will seem to be contradictory.

**Here is the clue: **

“And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” Jn 3:19

Let us see more on evil deeds:

" 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." Rev 2:6 (for our purposes does not matter who were the Nicolaitans neither what they were doing, it is enough for us that they were doing evil so that Christ hated their deeds)

“You have loved righteousness and** hated wickedness**.” Heb 1:9

“Let love be genuine;** hate what is evil**, hold fast to what is good.” Rm 12:9

Then we can read the parallel passage in Matthew:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36** and one’s enemies will be members of one’s own household**.

37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.Mt 10:34-39

Therefore if any of our family members lives an immoral life and we do not tell them nicely, with love, that they are doing wrong, so that they may change (or at least acknowledge that we do not approve), we love more our family than Christ. We are excusing their evil deeds and not hating these deeds.

The same with ourselves: if we do not hate our deeds when they are evil, as to stop doing them, we do not love Christ more than our own selves. And in this case we ought to change ourselves first before we are correcting others.

We know that God says:

“Those whom I love,** I reprove and chasten**; so be zealous and repent” Ap 3:19

Let us see why people hated Jesus:

“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it, that its deeds are evil.” Jan 7:7

Therefore that is why the members of our own families will be our enemies (pray to God that may not be so, that they all are loving God in spirit and in truth)

Therefore Jesus said:

"For** whoever does the will of my Father** in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Mt 12:20

If you are interested tomorrow I will open another thread to answer this: “What is the will of God”

This is my first thread and I really do not know if I kept to the rules, please let me know.

In the love of Christ and His teachings,
Gloria

.

I think this is a translation issue. The word we use for hate, in the Greek is μισεῖ

It could be stated as hate, but it could also be stated as, whoever doesn’t love me more (or love everything in the world less than me) can’t be my disciple. etc etc etc.

Is that better?

 

[esieffe]

Maybe this argument is beyond my theological beliefs on knowledge, but my impression has always been that we are to hate sin, but not the sinner. Further, it is my understanding, and maybe I am wrong, but it was my impression that hating anyone was a mortal sin.

I KNOW that hate is a destructive emotion. Hate and anger live in the same house. Hate breeds violence.

Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

 

[Robyn_p]

There are verses describing God’s hate. Psalm 11:5: The Lord approves of the godly, but He hates the wicked and those who love to do violence." Malachi 1:3: "And I hated Esau…” It is often said God hates the sin and loves the sinner but these verses do not support that explanation. And if hate is metaphorical, what is the metaphorical purpose of God saying He hates Esau? Even if he mildly dislikes someone, that is still not love. Also, if God doesn’t hate, then how does He feel about wickedness? Does He merely love it less than good?

It helps to remember that God was speaking to an ancient people, they had different idioms and ways of speaking back then. The Israelites were not at the point where they could grasp the distinction between hating the sin and loving the sinner. You were what you did. (It’s not that much different nowadays actually, people still have trouble making the distinction) God was meeting them where they were at. He had to emphasize to them the gravity and seriousness of sin, and to do that He would use these phrases. God would however eventually get them to the point of understanding this more fully in the right context, it would just take time.

For example in the book of Wisdom which is written a few hundred years after those verses you mentioned, we see this said about God:

But you are merciful to all, for you can do all things, and you do overlook men’s sins, that they may repent. ***For you love all things that exist, and have loathing for none of the things you have made, for you would not have made anything had you hated it. *** How would anything have endured if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, Oh Lord who loves the living. (Wisdom 11:23-26)

Here now we begin to see the distinction between God’s hate for sin and His love for men, a truth that would be finally realized with the revelation of Christ. (Hate isn’t wrong if it’s directed at an action BTW. I hate rape, I hate murder, I hate lies. It’s not wrong for me to hate these things. I don’t however hate the people who do those things, that’s when it becomes disordered.) He had to slowly bring it to where the people could grasp that distinction. Before they didn’t even see any problem with sin and the harm it does and how serious it was. Once they saw that, then they could begin to realize God does indeed love all men and hates nothing he made.

I currently am not worthy to be a Christian because I could not hate my family. I would fail the Abraham-Issac test and would also disobey if Jesus were to ask me to help genocide the heretics (Matthew weed parable), which may include family and friends, in His second coming. Even if I were to repent my disobedience He would know this was a lie.

A couple points here that might help. First, Jesus nowhere asks us to commit genocide in that parable. The good wheat (human beings who love God) are never told to destroy the weeds. The servants are not us but, as Jesus explains himself, are the angels who bring those who have been faithful to heaven and those who have not to hell. No one is being killed by anyone in that passage.

Second, we are not being commanded to hate anyone. If Jesus really meant that, than He contradicts himself when He tells us to love everyone, even our enemies. It helps again to remember Jesus was speaking as a first-century rabbi, and hyperbole was a common tool used back then.

Jesus also tells us if our eye causes us to sin to pluck it out, and if our hand causes us to sin to cut it off, but He is not commanding and we’re not expected to literally maim ourselves, it’s exaggeration to make a point. We need to avoid what leads us to sin. We must love him above all others if we are to follow Him.

You made another really good point earlier in your post that I didn’t get to address here, but I will address it in another post, because I think it’s important and really gets down to the crux of the issue with biblical interpretation, so hold on.

CONTINUED:

 

[Robyn_p]

Pending Theist:

I am appalled by the use of hate whether metaphorical, translational or contextually. Regardless, God allowed it into His good book and has caused so much confusion thus 40,000 Christian denominations. Couldn’t an all powerful perfect being have a better way to communicate back then and for millennia to come without such words as hate and cause such confusion and still make His point without confusing His creation and risk their demise?

This is a very good point, and goes deeper than just the hate phrase we’re discussing. He may have been speaking to an ancient people in ways they could grasp, and those may not be the same as the way we speak nowadays. That explains a little. But it’s still a very risky and faulty system, if this was all He left, especially since the average person doesn’t have the time to pour through the mountains of in-depth research that’s needed to understand the Bible in its context. It just doesn’t work. As evidenced by all the confusion. :sad_yes:

But here’s the thing, He didn’t do that. He didn’t only leave us a book written thousands of years ago and expect us to understand it on our own. He did something better and more reliable. He left us an infallible guide, a living authority, that gives us the proper interpretation of His words, that can help us understand. So that we are not forced to wander in the dark and make mistakes, so we are not forced to argue fruitlessly, so we’re not tossed back and forth by competing interpretations

This authority is the Church that Jesus founded. She guides us and helps us understand Christ’s words and all the Scriptures in their entire context and meaning. So we really can know the truth. We are not orphans, God didn’t leave us helpless. He did and does still provide for us.

The reason there are so many competing denominations as you mention is not God’s fault, it’s not a lack on His part, but because people have separated themselves from the authority He left us and decided they could interpret His words on their own without a guide. But it wasn’t meant to be this way at all.

I don’t expect you to necessarily agree with or believe everything I just said above. But for me, it was this authority that finally let everything click.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

I dont mean to put words on your post ( in your mouth) but are you saying people who don’t know Jesus can not know what is good and bad??

Well let me tell you that Jesus did come to call sinners that they may repent, not the righteous.
This is why in heaven they celebrate more for the conversion of one sinner than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance (cf. Lk 15:7).

Therefore the sinners who do not know Jesus, why they should change their lives? Even if they were to know they were doing bad, do they know that their souls will be thrown into the lake of fire at the end times, so they may repent for the fear at least? If they do not believe in Jesus why they should believe in what He said.

Or that good health, no pain and life are preferably to poor health, pain and death?

God gave us these bodies and it is for His love that we should take care of them, even when we fast. But **if by your own sin **and behavior you become sick what do you want me to tell you? If you think that to eat meat is going to give you health and then you find out that you have a cancer? Or you like to eat cakes and sweets instead of fruit and you end with diabetes, or you like so much soft drinks instead of water that you become so overweight? All these illnesses will you say that God send them to you?? Some times God allows us to become sick that in suffering we may come closer to Him. So you have to evaluate your own life before Him to know why something is happening to you and pray to Him for deliverance and do they right things.

I believe most non-psychotic humans would agree kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach is bad with or without Jesus teachings. Would you agree

NO.

For example among the Islamic people there still are certain laws that they still today put into practice because they did not want to believe in Jesus’ teachings. When in a family a young unmarried lady is pregnant, yes they not only do what you just said but also kill her.
They still cut hands to thieves and legs. Heads to unbelievers and stone adulterous women…

Do you think them psychopaths, or they just still worse than in OT times, because these teachings is their god who gives them?

There is no salvation without repentance (cf. Lk 19:5-9)

Hope that all these helps,
Gloria.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

This authority is the Church that Jesus founded. She guides us and helps us understand Christ’s words and all the Scriptures in their entire context and meaning. So we really can know the truth. We are not orphans, God didn’t leave us helpless. He did and does still provide for us.

The reason there are so many competing denominations as you mention is not God’s fault, it’s not a lack on His part, but because people have separated themselves from the authority He left (them) us and **(they) **decided they could interpret His words on their own without a guide. But it wasn’t meant to be this way at all.

This is what I also think about our beloved Church. (But I think you make a mistake in what you were saying so I put it in braquets in red. May be…)

Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Maybe this argument is beyond my theological beliefs on knowledge, but my impression has always been that we are to hate sin, but not the sinner. Further, it is my understanding, and maybe I am wrong, but it was my impression that hating anyone was a mortal sin.

I KNOW that hate is a destructive emotion. Hate and anger live in the same house. Hate breeds violence.

Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

You see I am afraid to tell you **that you did not read the post properly, the first post of this thread. **I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SHOULD HATE YOUR FAMILY I said that you shoud HATE EVIL DEEDS, IMMORAL BEHAVIOR, even if they are done by your own family!.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Our love for our friends and family should be counted
as HATE in comparison to our LOVE for God, is how
I interpret this apparent inconsistency.

Don’t hate anybody, just at least don’t allow your love
for others to outshine your love for God.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Oh God, who ever have said to hate people???
** HATE EVIL DEEDS,
THAT IS WHAT YOU NEED TO HATE.**

Sorry to speak a bit aloud but people are not reading properly the post.
If you hate people you are a murderer that is what is written in the first post of this thread.

And I love my family and **I do not count my love for them as hate **in comparison with my love for God, because my love for God is expressed in keeping His commandments and my love for my family and friends is that they all may have eternal life by also keeping God’s commandments and if they do not keep them I get worry for them and have to tell them something: all for the love of Christ.

May God help us to understand His will,
Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

I think this is a translation issue. The word we use for hate, in the Greek is μισεῖ

It could be stated as hate, but it could also be stated as, whoever doesn’t love me more (or love everything in the world less than me) can’t be my disciple. etc etc etc.

Is that better?

As I said at the top of the post the Greek verb is μισεῶ , this is the infinitive of what you just quote and I IT DOES NOT MEAN TO LOVE (LESS OR MORE), IT MEANS TO HATE.

There are many instances in the NT that this word is used and it is just in this passage that people want to change the meaning.(Mt 5:44 ;Mt 6:24 ;Mt 10:22 ; Mt 24:9-10 ;Mk 13:13 Lk 1:71 Lk 6:22 ;Lk 6:27 ;Lk 21:17 just to mention some) because they do not want to think a bit harder to find an answer without changing Scripture.

And also does not make sense that the family members will be our enemies if we were to love them less than Christ, it just does not make sense. But if **we hate their evil deeds **then…

**Let us love our family **so much that they will inherit eternal life with us.

I really do not believe that by changing arbitrary the meaning of the words we are going to get anywhere.

In the love of the truth,
Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

In Mark 7:3 Jesus mocks the Pharisees for having man-made traditions like washing their hands (God forbid) and gives an example they should be sticking to the law in the Old Testament by condoning the stoning of unruly children 9 (WHERE IS THIS?? you are just making it up that Jesus says this). Jesus could have been more compassionate to share basic knowledge of hygiene and save millions of lives and still make his point. That would show omniscience and omnibenevolence don’t you think?

This is the last time I will answer you because I think that you understand the things your own way, according to what is in your heart, Jesus never mocks the Pharisees, it is you who wants to interpret it like that. Jesus quote to them:

‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

Now, if you meditated very much in this, you will understand much more about Jesus’ teachings than I could tell you. I sent you the Catechism link, I really will recomend you to humble yourself and read a bit more what the Church is teaching us.

In the love of His Church,
Gloria

.

 

[PendingTheist]

Gloria

How exactly does God allow an infant child who never had an abundance of sweets, cakes, soft drinks become striken with cancer, suffer and die become closer to Christ?

I said MOST, not All non-psychopaths. Yes A small sect of Islamics share this horrific belief but not the Majority of cultures! The are just following their beliefs which originated from the Common Abrahamic god from Jews and Christians. This is why beliefs can be dangerous.
Bad beliefs with good intentions can be dangerous. Here are some examples of how reality based on faith can be dangerous. David and Ginger Twitchell, a Christian Science couple from Massachusetts who relied on prayer rather than on doctors as their young son lay dying from an obstructed bowel, were convicted of involuntary manslaughter. Eight month old Natalie Rippberger contracted meningitis, which can be treated with a 92% success rate. But her parents hired a Christian Science practitioner. She suffered for two weeks and died. Both parents were convicted of felony child endangerment. Christian Science is a set of beliefs and practices belonging to the metaphysical. Founder Mary Baker Eddy meant to describe it as Christian, because it is compassionate, helpful, and spiritual, not that it had anything to do with Christ, just to be clear. The point is it was faith based with good intentions.

Herbert Schaible, 44, and his 43-year-old wife, Catherine, grew up in the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia and have served as teachers there. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. The church’s website has a sermon titled “Healing – From God or Medicine?” that quotes Bible verses purportedly forbidding Christians from visiting doctors or taking medicine. “It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills; and it is real faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing,” says the message. “Four years ago, they had also lost their other 2 year old son in the similar manner. The judge ruled that they are a “danger” to their seven other children.

In Moussoro, Chad, eight-month-old Abdallah Lamine had been sick for a month, but it wasn’t until he started vomiting that his parents made the trip to the medicine man, Haki Hassane. The mother rode a red horse, carrying her baby’s hot body in her lap. She could feel the fever consuming him even through her clothes. The remedy the healer prescribes for malnourished children is the removal of the uvula, the tiny ball of flesh that hangs from the back of the throat, which he says “gets in the way of the food.” For fever, he prescribes the removal of the child’s teeth. In baby Abdallah’s case he prescribed both. He grabbed the baby by one arm, placed him on the mat and pinned him down. As the child began to shriek, he dug the unwashed screwdriver into the baby’s pink gums, until four tiny teeth popped out. The healer wiped down the holes in the child’s mouth with a corner of a ratty blanket, stained with the blood of the other children he’d treated that day. Then he handed the petrified, whimpering toddler to his stone-faced mother. Already malnourished children who have their epiglottis cut can’t eat for at least a week. When the child does eat, the open wound often gets infected thus worsening the malnutrition. Tooth extraction and the removal of the uvula are common in this part of Chad. Elsewhere, the treatment for diarrhea is burning the child’s anus with a rod heated over a fire. Other treatments include draining the “bad blood,” a procedure recommended when children’s bodies swell, a sign of severe malnutrition. The issue remains extremely sensitive, in part because the healers claim their gift came from Allah and in part because many local officials were submitted to such practices themselves when they were children. To say “God lets it happen" doesn’t help answer the question if He exists or not because if He doesn’t then this all makes sense. If He does, how is this omnibenevolence and omnipotence?

To quote Greek philosopher Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

[PendingTheist]

This is the last time I will answer you because I think that you understand the things your own way, according to what is in your heart, Jesus never mocks the Pharisees, it is you who wants to interpret it like that. Jesus quote to them:

‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’

Now, if you meditated very much in this, you will understand much more about Jesus’ teachings than I could tell you. I sent you the Catechism link, I really will recomend you to humble yourself and read a bit more what the Church is teaching us.

In the love of His Church,
Gloria
.

Mark 7:8-10. Having no regard for the command of God, you hold fast to human tradition.” He also said to them, “You neatly reject the commandment of God in order to set up your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever insults his father or mother must be put to death. So you see Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for hand washing which if more of us did today would have less death and then Jesus gives an example of His OT law to uphold instead of man made traditions.
I’ve read Church teachings and Christian apologetics but I’m tired of being told what to think and use my own genetics, experience and reason to form my opinion. I’m sorry Jesus picked a horribly immoral law as an example. I didn’t make it up.

 

[steve_b]

As I said at the top of the post the Greek verb is μισεῶ , this is the infinitive of what you just quote and I IT DOES NOT MEAN TO LOVE (LESS OR MORE), IT MEANS TO HATE.

There are many instances in the NT that this word is used and it is just in this passage that people want to change the meaning.(Mt 5:44 ;Mt 6:24 ;Mt 10:22 ; Mt 24:9-10 ;Mk 13:13 Lk 1:71 Lk 6:22 ;Lk 6:27 ;Lk 21:17 just to mention some) because they do not want to think a bit harder to find an answer without changing Scripture.

And also does not make sense that the family members will be our enemies if we were to love them less than Christ, it just does not make sense. But if **we hate their evil deeds **then…

**Let us love our family **so much that they will inherit eternal life with us.

I really do not believe that by changing arbitrary the meaning of the words we are going to get anywhere.

In the love of the truth,
Gloria

.

When I said “It could be stated as hate, but it could also be stated as, whoever doesn’t love me more (or love everything in the world less than me) can’t be my disciple. etc etc etc” is an acceptable way to look at this apparent conflict. Jesus says don’t hate anyone in other statements. And that’s true. The difference in the case presented is, EXCEPT when Jesus is the one being contrasted with everyone else.

therefore,

Matthew 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

In a real application, what if a person who is Protestant was drawn to the Catholic Church but their parents would disown them (so to speak). So they don’t join the Catholic Church to keep the peace. They have made a choice for their parents over Jesus.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

When I said “It could be stated as hate, but it could also be stated as, whoever doesn’t love me more (or love everything in the world less than me) can’t be my disciple. etc etc etc” is an acceptable way to look at this apparent conflict. Jesus says don’t hate anyone in other statements. And that’s true. The difference in the case presented is, EXCEPT when Jesus is the one being contrasted with everyone else.

therefore,

Matthew 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

In a real application, what if a person who is Protestant was drawn to the Catholic Church but their parents would disown them (so to speak). So they don’t join the Catholic Church to keep the peace. They have made a choice for their parents over Jesus.

Very good, in Matthew, yes I believe you could understand it like that but no so in Lk.

But I said before that deeds are very important in our Christian lives. Let me repeat this:

“And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” Jn 3:19

“you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate” Ap 2:6

This last quote teaches us how much our Lord hates evil deeds

And if God does this: "Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent" Ap 3:19 Do you not think that if we have a real love for our relatives we would like them to received at the end eternal life? But if they are living immoral lives (adulterous father or mother, lesbian or homosexual brother or sister, a fornicating daughter or son) do you not think that we should say something to them? I do not say that you have to shout at them things, no, I am not saying that, you have just nicely with love, say that they are doing wrong and that they should repent.

And they will never come to speak in front of you of their immoral behavior and think that you should ascent; no. You should always keep your position in the sight of God and reprove immorality even in your own relatives, until they know that they can not try to bend you to their side, then they will have in their minds this little something that is telling them that they are doing wrong and if you add your prayers for them, one day they may repent, before it is too late. But one has to be firm in our convictions, our love for Christ and his teachings has to be greater: we must hate evil deeds.

And do not forget that for our love to be genuine we need to hate evil.

"Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good." Rm 12:9

In the love of God,
Gloria

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[Gorgias]

As I said at the top of the post the Greek verb is μισεῶ , this is the infinitive of what you just quote and I IT DOES NOT MEAN TO LOVE (LESS OR MORE), IT MEANS TO HATE.

Actually, it does take on the tenor of ‘to love less’ in Hebraic idiomatic usage. (Oh, and by the way, μισεῶ isn’t an infinitive, it’s a first person singular form.)

There are many instances in the NT that this word is used and it is just in this passage that people want to change the meaning.(Mt 5:44 ;Mt 6:24 ;Mt 10:22 ; Mt 24:9-10 ;Mk 13:13 Lk 1:71 Lk 6:22 ;Lk 6:27 ;Lk 21:17 just to mention some) because they do not want to think a bit harder to find an answer without changing Scripture.

Actually, no. Take a look at Romans 9:13. Paul is quoting Malachi 1:3 here. Looking in Malachi, then, we see the same verb being used there, as well. In the RSV-CE, the phrase in Malachi is rendered “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”; while in the NAB, it’s translated, “I loved Jacob, but rejected Esau.” See? It’s not ‘hate’ in the way that we use it in English, to signify lack of love; rather, it has to do with a comparative notion… that is, ‘to love less.’

And also does not make sense that the family members will be our enemies if we were to love them less than Christ, it just does not make sense.

Christ isn’t asking us to make our family members our enemies; rather, he’s simply asking us to love him more fully.

I really do not believe that by changing arbitrary the meaning of the words we are going to get anywhere.

Trust me – if we take the word *μισεῶ * to mean something different than it was understood to mean in 1st century Palestine, it’s us who are arbitrarily changing the meaning of the word!

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Actually, it does take on the tenor of ‘to love less’ in Hebraic idiomatic usage. (Oh, and by the way, μισεῶ isn’t an infinitive, it’s a first person singular form.)

I am very sorry for my ignorance in Greek and claiming to know anything, I hope that the one I corrected will forgive me. I know how to read Greek and look for things in the dictionary but it escape from me that was not the infinitive what the dictionary gives, sorry again. I want to answer fully to this (name removed by moderator)ut of yours but first I have to do some research and then I will come back to you, because I do not believe about the use of the Hebrew that you are claiming.

Many thanks for correcting me,
Gloria

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[PJM]

=Gloria de G;11471105](I will not answer any objection if you had not read all this first, carefully)
Since theologians do not give a proper answer to this statement, but have to go changing the meaning of the Greek verb to hate (miseo μισεῶ ) I decided to give an answer. AND THE ANSWER IS NO

“Whoever comes to me and does not **hate **father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:26

But then we are told again by Jesus in another place:

“All **who hate **a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them.” 1 Jn 3:15

OR

“Those who say, “I love God,” and **hate **their brothers or sisters, are liars” 1 Jn 4:20

OR

“Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall** love **your neighbor as yourself.” Mt 19:19

AND

“For no one ever hates his own body” Ephesians 5:29

**Here there are no contractions to the first statement, which is true: we should hate our family members, ups! **
But in which way we are to hate them if we just read all the other quotes which will seem to be contradictory.

**Here is the clue: **

“And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” Jn 3:19

Let us see more on evil deeds:

" 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." Rev 2:6 (for our purposes does not matter who were the Nicolaitans neither what they were doing, it is enough for us that they were doing evil so that Christ hated their deeds)

“You have loved righteousness and** hated wickedness**.” Heb 1:9

“Let love be genuine;** hate what is evil**, hold fast to what is good.” Rm 12:9

Then we can read the parallel passage in Matthew:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36** and one’s enemies will be members of one’s own household**.

37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.Mt 10:34-39

Therefore if any of our family members lives an immoral life and we do not tell them nicely, with love, that they are doing wrong, so that they may change (or at least acknowledge that we do not approve), we love more our family than Christ. We are excusing their evil deeds and not hating these deeds.

The same with ourselves: if we do not hate our deeds when they are evil, as to stop doing them, we do not love Christ more than our own selves. And in this case we ought to change ourselves first before we are correcting others.

We know that God says:

“Those whom I love,** I reprove and chasten**; so be zealous and repent” Ap 3:19

Let us see why people hated Jesus:

“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it, that its deeds are evil.” Jan 7:7

Therefore that is why the members of our own families will be our enemies (pray to God that may not be so, that they all are loving God in spirit and in truth)

Therefore Jesus said:

"For** whoever does the will of my Father** in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Mt 12:20

If you are interested tomorrow I will open another thread to answer this: “What is the will of God”

This is my first thread and I really do not know if I kept to the rules, please let me know.

In the love of Christ and His teachings,
Gloria

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WOW

Lots of thoughtful work done here.

HOWEVER, IMO, its NOT that complicated.

What Christ is teaching is the critical IMPORTANCE of our priorities.

Always and every time:
God FIRST
Family second
work third

and THEN and ONLY then; everything else.

God can be describes as “All Good things AND ONLY GOOD THINGS} Perfected”

So It would violate the Divine NATURE to instruct ANYONE to hate anyone else. Amen?

WELCOME TO CAF! Delighted you joined us.
God Bless you!
Patrick