Should we hate our father, mother, wife and children, brother and sisters and even ourselves?

[Gorgias]

I am very sorry for my ignorance in Greek and claiming to know anything

No problems – iron sharpens iron, right? In English, we use the infinitive as the way we refer to verbs; in Latin and Greek, we use the first person singular. It doesn’t affect the case you’re making, but it’s good to know.

I want to answer fully to this (name removed by moderator)ut of yours but first I have to do some research and then I will come back to you

Sounds good! Some things to consider:

• Look at the footnotes in the NAB to Luke 14:26 and Romans 9:13.
• Even if you want to make the case that footnotes in a Bible don’t rise to the level of assent that Scripture does, you still want to ask yourself how a translation of the Bible (the NAB), which has a Catholic imprimateur, would translate Malachi 1:3 as it does, if the verb in Luke 14:26 must only mean ‘hate’ and not ‘love less’.

Blessings,

G.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

WOW

Lots of thoughtful work done here.

HOWEVER, IMO, its NOT that complicated.

What Christ is teaching is the critical IMPORTANCE of our priorities.

Always and every time:
God FIRST
Family second
work third

and THEN and ONLY then; everything else.

God can be describes as “All Good things [AND ONLY GOOD THINGS} Perfected”

[COLOR=“Red”]So It would violate the Divine NATURE to instruct ANYONE to hate anyone else. Amen?

WELCOME TO CAF! Delighted you joined us.
God Bless you!
Patrick

Dear Patrick you know I am not instructing any one to hate no one. WOW, you should concentrate very well and read my post again. I said we should HATE EVIL DEEDS EVEN IF IT IS IN YOUR RELATIVES.

Now I hope you understand the difference between hating evil deeds, which we are told by our Lord, which even commended that in his Revelation, and Saint Paul, *and *hate people, which will make us murders as our Lord thought us.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

.

 

[PJM]

=Gloria de G;11485537]Dear Patrick you know I am not instructing any one to hate no one. WOW, you should concentrate very well and read my post again. I said we should HATE EVIL DEEDS EVEN IF IT IS IN YOUR RELATIVES.

Now I hope you understand the difference between hating evil deeds, which we are told by our Lord, which even commended that in his Revelation, and Saint Paul, *and *hate people, which will make us murders as our Lord thought us.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

.

Thank you

I understood your position and was offering a clarification that seems to me to be prudent:thumbsup:

God Bless you!
Patrick

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Actually, it does take on the tenor of ‘to love less’ in Hebraic idiomatic usage. (Oh, and by the way, μισεῶ isn’t an infinitive, it’s a first person singular form.)

Actually in Hebrew you can say love more or hate more, you can find it in the OT, but you do not say love less or hate less. You could really question yourself what does it mean “to hate less”. Hate already has a bad connotation, indicates a passion, to say ‘hate less’ will really mean that it is indifferent to me and the same to ‘love less’. So when they use the word hate, that is what they want to mean and to say hate more it is that you can not even stand to see it (a situation or a person). You find this in the OT. (some quotes if you want to verify: love more: Gn 29:30; Gn 37:3; Esther 2:17 etc. there are some more.
Hate more: Gn 37:5 ; Gn 37:8, but really what it means is that you hate someone to the point of killing him. Therefore when you say hate is already ‘hate less’)

Actually, no. Take a look at Romans 9:13. Paul is quoting Malachi 1:3 here. Looking in Malachi, then, we see the same verb being used there, as well. In the RSV-CE, the phrase in Malachi is rendered “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”; while in the NAB, it’s translated, “I loved Jacob, but rejected Esau.” See? It’s not ‘hate’ in the way that we use it in English, to signify lack of love; rather, it has to do with a comparative notion… that is, ‘to love less.’

The Hebrew word in Malachi 1:3 for hate is **שָׂנֵאתִי **(I hated derive from שנא -sane- pronunc.) and the word in Greek that is used by Saint Paul is ἐμίσησα derive again from μισεῶ. This word in Hebrew is always translated for μισεῶ in Greek and it means to hate. We can not go changing meanings just because we have one passage that we can not explain. Sorry… and if there are translations that render a different word for hate, I go to the Hebrew and Greek to verify.

Christ isn’t asking us to make our family members our enemies; rather, he’s simply asking us to love him more fully.

Here Christ is not asking us to make our family members our enemies, what he is saying is that it is inevitable.
If the members of our family are immoral and we love them so much as to tell them that what they are doing is wrong (but with love, one does not have to get angry to say these things you just have to drop it that they may hear it), then we will be hated for not letting them do as they wish. I do not say that one has to be nagging them all the time, but that they must know how they stand with us: that we love Christ and hate evil deeds. And one day we hope they will change when they see that we are ready to give our lives if necessary for our believes in Christ teachings. Immorality is rampant today and if we do not take a stand against it, we are just not loving Christ.
I do not say that you have to go out of your way to find immorality to reprove it, but what is in your path of life. Are you ready for the Great Tribulation or you think that the persecution of Christians is just because we are immoral like the rest. No. It is because we are not tolerating immorality and we will be hated for that.

Trust me – if we take the word *μισεῶ * to mean something different than it was understood to mean in 1st century Palestine, it’s us who are arbitrarily changing the meaning of the word!

I look in the OT the words derived from שנא to hate, and always is translated by ἐμίσησα in Greek. I do not think you are right in saying that the word μισεῶ had a different meaning in 1st century Palestine. I told you that Saint Paul is exactly translating the Hebrew word for hate.
(My Hebrew is better that my Greek.You know I live in Israel)

In the love of God and the way he has spoken to us,
Gloria

.

 

[Gorgias]

Actually in Hebrew you can say love more or hate more, you can find it in the OT, but you do not say love less or hate less.

Gloria,

That’s exactly the point! In literal Hebrew, there are ways to say ‘love more’ or ‘hate more’, but is there a way to say ‘love less’? You concur that there is no way to say it. The assertion we’re making is that, in the language usage of 1st century Palestine, the way to say ‘love less’ was through an idiomatic usage of the word miseo (in the Greek). You’re demonstrating exactly why the point we’re making is something that makes sense!

You could really question yourself what does it mean “to hate less”.

No one is making any assertion about ‘hating less;’ rather, the only assertion being made is that the expression in question is used idiomatically to mean ‘love less than [something]’…!

The Hebrew word in Malachi 1:3 for hate is **שָׂנֵאתִי **(I hated derive from שנא -sane- pronunc.) and the word in Greek that is used by Saint Paul is ἐμίσησα derive again from μισεῶ.

Agreed; and yet, in the NAB, when this is translated in Malachi 1:3, the translation is ‘rejected’ not ‘hated.’ Are you claiming authority that is superior to the Catholic Church in your interpretation of the meaning of Malachi 1:3?

This word in Hebrew is always translated for μισεῶ in Greek and it means to hate.

Literally, yes. Idiomatically, no.

We can not go changing meanings just because we have one passage that we can not explain.

I agree. Yet, it’s not me who is changing meanings: it’s the Church who is asserting this meaning. Can you or I simply say, “nah… I know the source language better than the Church’s scholars? Better than those who have the authority to give assent to a Scripture translation or its meaning?” Of course not!

Here Christ is not asking us to make our family members our enemies, what he is saying is that it is inevitable.
**If **the members of our family are immoral

Let’s break down your interpretation, then, since I assert that it’s faulty. You’re asserting that Christ means:

1. 
   *]It’s inevitable that people will act in immoral ways.
   *]When they act in an immoral way, we are called to reproach them.
   *]This Scripture passage only applies to family members who are acting immorally; it does not apply to family members who act justly.
   
   Therefore, your interpretation is that Christ’s words here are only meant for a subset of Christians – those who act immorally. However, this interpretation fails: in the passage, Christ isn’t telling us to hate some but love others – it’s absolute! We are to ‘hate’ all – mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters! If your interpretation were true, then its meaning would be that all our loved ones are immoral! No, that’s not what Christ means, at all! (You could read a meaning into the Scriptures, but that’s not what this passage says!)
   
   Rather, Christ is telling us something that applies to our relationships with all our loved ones – we are to love Christ more than we love those around us. It is something that is meant for all – after all, in Luke 14, Christ says “if anyone,” meaning that all are to ‘hate’ mothers, fathers, wives, children: but it’s not something that means “hate everyone, since they’re all immoral!”
   
   Moreover, Christ doesn’t apply this only to others – he says “even your own life”. Now, according to your interpretation, this is a call to ‘hatred’ as a means to induce better behavior. What in the world does it mean to play these kinds of games with oneself? Rather, with respect to oneself, a person makes a resolution to repent and amend his life! One doesn’t say, “I’m going to hate myself, and teach myself a lesson until I fix what’s wrong in my life!” So, by the inclusion of this saying in the very passage you cite, we can see that your interpretation doesn’t hold up to close scrutiny!
   

   I look in the OT the words derived from שנא to hate, and always is translated by ἐμίσησα in Greek. I do not think you are right in saying that the word μισεῶ had a different meaning in 1st century Palestine.

   I appreciate that this is what you think. Do you have any references to scholarly thought that back up your interpretation, or is this a personal opinion?
   
   In any case, this is not what Scriptural scholars teach. Scripture is not meant for private interpretation, remember? We are not called to generate our own understandings, but rather, to follow the mind of the Church. The mind of the Church in this matter is that Christ means ‘love less.’ Will you follow the mind of the Church, or will you insist on your private interpretation?
   

   (My Hebrew is better that my Greek.You know I live in Israel)

   Yes, and this tells me that your grasp of modern Hebrew is likely very good. However, it does not demonstrate that you have a mastery of ancient languages of the 1st century Palestine. Scriptural scholars do have this training and expertise, and they’re the ones telling us about the idiomatic usage here. Are you claiming this expertise for yourself, then, in making your interpretive claims?
   
   Blessings,
   
   G.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Jesus often uses hyperbole. Jesus wants us to follow his way even if it means our families will forsake us for doing so. He is using exaggeration to make this point. We shouldn’t hate anyone literally. Our relationship to the Lord is more important than earthly relationships.

“Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.”

• Romans 12:9-10

"For my father and my mother have forsaken me,
but the Lord will take me up. "

• Ps 27:10

 

[fisherman_carl]

In telling someone else their sin we should also remember Wisdom and charity. There is a time for everything. And not everyone is ready to be confronted. If they know you do not approve of their behavior you do not need to continually remind them. You will only drive them away further. If you confront them in a hostile way you will almost certainly drive them away. But, if out of love and concern for their well being you share with them God’s plan they may listen. If they know that you love them first they may listen. But if you come across as holier than though you have already lost. Remember, we are all sinners. If anyone says he is without sin, as St. John says, he is a liar. So before you take the speck out of your brothers eye first take the log out of your own.

For with the mercy you show others will be what you receive.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

FIRST OF ALL LET ME TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE CHANGING MY POST.
I NEVER SAID THAT WE SHOULD HATE OUR RELATIVES. I SAID THAT WE SHOULD HATE THEIR EVIL DEEDS, THEIR IMMORAL BEHAVIOR.

And for this I based myself in statements of Jesus like:

**"For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” **Mt 12:20

This is the will of His Father:

It is that we should keep His commandments. 1 Jn 2:3

Whoever says that he does the will of God and does not keep His commandments is a lair. 1 Jn 2:4
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity; "
1 Thess 4:3

And all what I am saying does not mean by no means that our relatives have to be immoral I AM NOT SAYING THAT, I am sure there are many holy families by which many Christians have been blessed.

Gloria,

That’s exactly the point! In literal Hebrew, there are ways to say ‘love more’ or ‘hate more’, but is there a way to say ‘love less’? You concur that there is no way to say it. The assertion we’re making is that, in the language usage of 1st century Palestine, the way to say ‘love less’ was through an idiomatic usage of the word miseo (in the Greek). You’re demonstrating exactly why the point we’re making is something that makes sense!

You know Gorgias, I told you, but you seem to read very quickly and do not get the point. I told you if you say to love less it means that you are indifferent.
You say that in ‘the language usage of 1st century Palestine’ to say love less is an idiomatic form that is taken by the verb miseo. Therefore if you are right, send me some passages in the Bible that corroborate your statement, if not I do not take it to be true, and I just think you have been brain wash by theologians, who always claim to know every thing and now if you interrogate them many of them even do not believe in miracles. So why should I hear them?

Agreed; and yet, in the NAB, when this is translated in Malachi 1:3, the translation is ‘rejected’ not ‘hated.’ Are you claiming authority that is superior to the Catholic Church in your interpretation of the meaning of Malachi 1:3?

Literally, yes. Idiomatically, no.

If you claim to be so well verse in this, then tell me the places where this verb is used **idiomatically **in the OT and in the NT. Give me references, not only this one. Only one does not make your point.

I agree. Yet, it’s not me who is changing meanings: it’s the Church who is asserting this meaning. Can you or I simply say, “nah… I know the source language better than the Church’s scholars? Better than those who have the authority to give assent to a Scripture translation or its meaning?” Of course not!

If some one comes with an inspire idea which does not contradict the teachings of Christ and gives more light in a passage, interpreting Scripture with Scripture, this is what is promoted by the Commission of Bishops to be able to give the meaning intended by the author, i.e., our Lord, I am sure the Church will not rejected.

Let’s break down your interpretation, then, since I assert that it’s faulty. You’re asserting that Christ means:

1. 
   *]It’s inevitable that people will act in immoral ways…

1. 
   This is when I said you do not read properly. I said “if the members of our family are immoral and we love them so much as to tell them that what they are doing is wrong”. You do not read properly and then you want to make a point. This is the last time I answer to you if you do not read properly first.
   

   *]When they act in an immoral way, we are called to reproach them.

   “Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him” Lk 17:3
   

   *]This Scripture passage only applies to family members who are acting immorally; it does not apply to family members who act justly.

   Of course! or it is not clear to you that you** should not rebuke** some one who is acting justly, just the sinner.
   

   Therefore, your interpretation is that Christ’s words here are only meant for a subset of Christians – those who act immorally. However, this interpretation fails: in the passage, Christ isn’t telling us to hate some but love others – it’s absolute! We are to ‘hate’ all – mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters! If your interpretation were true, then its meaning would be that all our loved ones are immoral! No, that’s not what Christ means, at all! (You could read a meaning into the Scriptures, but that’s not what this passage says!)
   
   Rather, Christ is telling us something that applies to our relationships with all our loved ones – we are to love Christ more than we love those around us. It is something that is meant for all – after all, in Luke 14, Christ says “if anyone,” meaning that all are to ‘hate’ mothers, fathers, wives, children: but it’s not something that means “hate everyone, since they’re all immoral!”
   
   Blessings,
   
   G.

   All this nonsense that you are interpreting that I said
   I answered at the beginning of this post
   
   And please I would like to answer people their doubts but not if they do not first **read post #1 properly what I said.
   **
   In the love of Christ and of the Church,
   
   Gloria
   
   .

 

[Gloria_de_G]

[No message]

 

[Gloria_de_G]

In telling someone else their sin we should also remember Wisdom and charity. There is a time for everything. And not everyone is ready to be confronted. If they know you do not approve of their behavior you do not need to continually remind them. You will only drive them away further. If you confront them in a hostile way you will almost certainly drive them away. But, if out of love and concern for their well being you share with them God’s plan they may listen. If they know that you love them first they may listen. But if you come across as holier than though you have already lost. Remember, we are all sinners. If anyone says he is without sin, as St. John says, he is a liar. So before you take the speck out of your brothers eye first take the log out of your own.

For with the mercy you show others will be what you receive.

Absolutely. I said to someone that **we should not be nagging them **but just let them now how we stand about their behavior, but with love we do not have to be nasty. We always have to have present that we also have been forgiven a lot and God has been patient with us but always letting us know that we are doing wrong because:

“Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.” Ap 3:19

We also have to remember this that Saint John said:

“We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.” 1Jn 5:18

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Sorry but quoting the Haydock commentary, it was not clear for me that it was a quote, you did not put it inverted commas. That is why I thought was your own comment, but still you brought that commentary like if I needed to be thought to not to hate any one, which the whole post is about: not to hate any one but only evil deeds.

Many thanks. And I do not believe that the Church wants only puppets, but people that live the word of God in their lives, and if doing that brings you to new understandings, I am sure that the Church will not object unless are out of the blue and not Scriptural, which is not my case. I back my new intrepretation with Scripture, so I do not believe that my position is imprudent.
If you do not like my interpretation, just leave it and do not take notice of what I said. Very simple. But it is nice that brother and sisters should get together to speak about this things and find new meanings that are going to help not only us but the people that we love.

And as for theologians I did not say every one, but if you knew the amount of people that go out of seminaries because of the faithless teachings of theologians you will be surprise.
And about Scott Hahn here is something that my husband wrote about him, if you are interested:

newtorah.org/Review%20Lambs%20Supper.html

In the love of God,
Gloria,

.

 

[steve_b]

(I will not answer any objection if you had not read all this first, carefully)
Since theologians do not give a proper answer to this statement, but have to go changing the meaning of the Greek verb to hate (miseo μισεῶ ) I decided to give an answer. AND THE ANSWER IS NO

“Whoever comes to me and does not **hate **father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, cannot be my disciple. Lk 14:26

But then we are told again by Jesus in another place:

“All **who hate **a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them.” 1 Jn 3:15

OR

“Those who say, “I love God,” and **hate **their brothers or sisters, are liars” 1 Jn 4:20

OR

“Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall** love **your neighbor as yourself.” Mt 19:19

AND

“For no one ever hates his own body” Ephesians 5:29

**Here there are no contractions to the first statement, which is true: we should hate our family members, ups! **
But in which way we are to hate them if we just read all the other quotes which will seem to be contradictory.

**Here is the clue: **

“And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” Jn 3:19

Let us see more on evil deeds:

" 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." Rev 2:6 (for our purposes does not matter who were the Nicolaitans neither what they were doing, it is enough for us that they were doing evil so that Christ hated their deeds)

“You have loved righteousness and** hated wickedness**.” Heb 1:9

“Let love be genuine;** hate what is evil**, hold fast to what is good.” Rm 12:9

Then we can read the parallel passage in Matthew:

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36** and one’s enemies will be members of one’s own household**.

37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.Mt 10:34-39

Therefore if any of our family members lives an immoral life and we do not tell them nicely, with love, that they are doing wrong, so that they may change (or at least acknowledge that we do not approve), we love more our family than Christ. We are excusing their evil deeds and not hating these deeds.

The same with ourselves: if we do not hate our deeds when they are evil, as to stop doing them, we do not love Christ more than our own selves. And in this case we ought to change ourselves first before we are correcting others.

We know that God says:

“Those whom I love,** I reprove and chasten**; so be zealous and repent” Ap 3:19

Let us see why people hated Jesus:

“The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it, that its deeds are evil.” Jan 7:7

Therefore that is why the members of our own families will be our enemies (pray to God that may not be so, that they all are loving God in spirit and in truth)

Therefore Jesus said:

"For** whoever does the will of my Father** in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Mt 12:20

If you are interested tomorrow I will open another thread to answer this: “What is the will of God”

This is my first thread and I really do not know if I kept to the rules, please let me know.

In the love of Christ and His teachings,
Gloria

.

Re: hate

getting back to this opening point after many responses so far, I think it safe to say, given that Jesus summarizes the 2 great commandements, love God with everything we have, and love our neighbor as ourself (paraphrased), hate as a term, coming from the mouth of Jesus towards anyone, is not meant by Him as hate as we know it…as in, having the most uncharitable thoughts about someone else. That would not only break the 2 commandments He gave, He would be contradicting Himself, which God can’t do either of those things.

I read Jesus statement as an exaggeration to make a point about intensity of Love for God #1, and love for anyone or anything in creation. I see it as expressing hierarchy of love between love for God at the top and love for everyone and everything else. Nothing is to get between or diminish love for God as #1. Zero compromises on this. Thus Jesus uses hate as an exaggeration and as a way of saying, everyone and everything that gets in the way of this love for God first and above all, then one must be willing to abandon immediately without hesitation anyone or anything that does that. It doesn’t mean one stops loving a person, it’s just that there is a hierarchy of love that can’t be compromised

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Re: hate

getting back to this opening point after many responses so far, I think it safe to say, given that Jesus summarizes the 2 great commandements, love God with everything we have, and love our neighbor as ourself (paraphrased), hate as a term, coming from the mouth of Jesus towards anyone, is not meant by Him as hate as we know it…as in, having the most uncharitable thoughts about someone else. That would not only break the 2 commandments He gave, He would be contradicting Himself, which God can’t do either of those things.

I read Jesus statement as an exaggeration to make a point about intensity of Love for God #1, and love for anyone or anything in creation. I see it as expressing hierarchy of love between love for God at the top and love for everyone and everything else. Nothing is to get between or diminish love for God as #1. Zero compromises on this. Thus Jesus uses hate as an exaggeration and as a way of saying, everyone and everything that gets in the way of this love for God first and above all, then one must be willing to abandon immediately without hesitation anyone or anything that does that. It doesn’t mean one stops loving a person, it’s just that there is a hierarchy of love that can’t be compromised

Dear Steve, the intensity of our love for God only can be measured parallel to the intensity with which we keep His commandments. There is not other way to measure our love for God.

Our love for our neighbor is measure in accordance with how much we hate evil, if we have eradicated it from our own lives so that we can be living lights to help others in their way to God.

“Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good.” Rm 12:9

And do not forget that in the Apocalypse we are told that Jesus hates evil deeds. Ap 2:6
For whoever does the will of my Father** in heaven is my brother and sister and mother**.” Mt 12:20

“For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity” 1 Thessalonians 4:3

In the love of Christ and of His teachings,
Gloria

.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Gloria,

Moreover, Christ doesn’t apply this only to others – he says “even your own life”. Now, according to your interpretation, this is a call to ‘hatred’ as a means to induce better behavior. What in the world does it mean to play these kinds of games with oneself? Rather, with respect to oneself, a person makes a resolution to repent and amend his life! One doesn’t say, “I’m going to hate myself, and teach myself a lesson until I fix what’s wrong in my life!” So, by the inclusion of this saying in the very passage you cite, we can see that your interpretation doesn’t hold up to close scrutiny!

Dear Gorgias, I did not finished answering your post before, here it is the rest.

The way to hate the evil deeds that we commit is this: if you do something really horrible to someone and you really feel bad and wish you would never had act in such a sinful way and repent. This is to hate yourself, your evil deeds commited, and since you hate this behavior of yours then you can be sure that you are loving yourself. **The one who loves oneself **is the one that do the will of God and His will is our sanctification. 1 Thessalonians 4:3

I appreciate that this is what you think. Do you have any references to scholarly thought that back up your interpretation, or is this a personal opinion?

Yes I have many references, you did not see all my bible quotes? These are the ones that give testimony of what I am saying.

In any case, this is not what Scriptural scholars teach. Scripture is not meant for private interpretation, remember? We are not called to generate our own understandings, but rather, to follow the mind of the Church. The mind of the Church in this matter is that Christ means ‘love less.’ Will you follow the mind of the Church, or will you insist on your private interpretation?

If what you are saying was the absolute truth about the Church, long ago the Church would have put out some teachings in form of dogma or something like it about the interpretation of the Book of Revelation, but there is nothing, only few mentions in the Catechism. So which mind of the Church should I follow here? I am not hermetic, if any one comes with something that is worth we need to listen until we can opposed it with sound arguments instead of just trying to overpower him by authority.

Yes, and this tells me that your grasp of modern Hebrew is likely very good. However, it does not demonstrate that you have a mastery of ancient languages of the 1st century Palestine. Scriptural scholars do have this training and expertise, and they’re the ones telling us about the idiomatic usage here. Are you claiming this expertise for yourself, then, in making your interpretive claims?

Blessings,

G.

I am not a Biblical scholar but I did at the university in Barcelona one year of Biblical Hebrew and then again at Cambridge University in England, so I can defend more or less myself.

I hope I answered all your questions, and may be peace between us, because this is the teaching of your Lord and mine, Jesus Christ. We should love and help one another in our path towards Him.

In His love,
Gloria

.

 

[Gorgias]

FIRST OF ALL LET ME TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE CHANGING MY POST.

And all what I am saying does not mean by no means that our relatives have to be immoral I AM NOT SAYING THAT, I am sure there are many holy families by which many Christians have been blessed.

Certainly, I am not. You said, “Here Christ is not asking us to make our family members our enemies, what he is saying is that it is inevitable.”

Unless there’s an idiomatic meaning of ‘inevitable’ that you’re using here, then you’ve said that “it is inevitable” that “our family members [are made] our enemies” because they do immoral acts. I appreciate that you want to claim that I’m not reading your posts closely, but you’re mistaken; I’m reading your claims very carefully, and holding you to what you claim. It is you who make the claim of inevitability of immoral behavior… not me.

I told you if you say to love less it means that you are indifferent.

Another definition, without attribution, eh? Gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

You say that in ‘the language usage of 1st century Palestine’ to say love less is an idiomatic form that is taken by the verb miseo. Therefore if you are right, send me some passages in the Bible that corroborate your statement

Two thoughts: first off, to claim that there is an idiomatic usage does not imply that there is only an idiomatic usage. Second, there are a number of words that are used only once in the Bible; the fact that they are used only once doesn’t demonstrate that they have no demonstrable meaning.

If you claim to be so well verse in this, then tell me the places where this verb is used **idiomatically **in the OT and in the NT. Give me references, not only this one. Only one does not make your point.

I would ask you to look at John 12:25 – “Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.” Are you really saying that you think that Jesus is telling you to have a passionate hatred for your human life? That you should hate the human life that God created, and which He declares in Genesis 1 to be “very good”? Of course not! What Jesus is saying is that we shouldn’t hold our human life so dearly that it’s the most important thing in our lives; rather, the most important thing is our love for God, which leads to eternal life. Here, ‘hate’ (μισῶν) means ‘love your human life less than’ your prospect of eternal life.

So, there you go; another example of how the Bible says ‘hate’, meaning ‘love less.’ Will you now admit that this interpretation is valid, please?

, if not I do not take it to be true, and I just think you have been brain wash by theologians, who always claim to know every thing and now if you interrogate them many of them even do not believe in miracles. So why should I hear them?

Because the scholars who we have quoted in this thread aren’t ones who “don’t believe in miracles,” but rather, are the ones whom the Church has entrusted with interpretation of the Bible.

 

[steve_b]

Dear Steve, the intensity of our love for God only can be measured parallel to the intensity with which we keep His commandments. There is not other way to measure our love for God.

That’s true John 14:21
G:

Our love for our neighbor is measure in accordance with how much we hate evil, if we have eradicated it from our own lives so that we can be living lights to help others in their way to God.

“Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good.” Rm 12:9

True
G:

And do not forget that in the Apocalypse we are told that Jesus hates evil deeds. Ap 2:6

That particular passage talks about not following heretics like Νικολαϊτῶν
Which of course I agree
G:

For whoever does the will of my Father**** in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Mt 12:20

obviously I agree
G:

“For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity” 1 Thessalonians 4:3

All true.

And again, we see a hierarchy of love, i.e the supreme importance to love God 1st, with our whole mind, soul, body and strength, just as the 1st commandment states, and not let anything or anyone get in the way of that…

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Certainly, I am not. You said, “Here Christ is not asking us to make our family members our enemies, what he is saying is that it is inevitable.”

Unless there’s an idiomatic meaning of ‘inevitable’ that you’re using here, then you’ve said that “it is inevitable” that “our family members [are made] our enemies” because they do immoral acts. I appreciate that you want to claim that I’m not reading your posts closely, but you’re mistaken; I’m reading your claims very carefully, and holding you to what you claim. It is you who make the claim of inevitability of immoral behavior… not me. ;

Another definition, without attribution, eh? Gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

This is where I think I have really to spell out things for you:

when I said it is inevitable this word** is referring to the attitude of our relatives if we have corrected them** in some immoral behavior** if **they have behaved immorally in some way or another. I am not saying that all our relatives have to be immoral because is inevitable. Do you really do not see the kind of nonsense that you are proposing and supposing that I am saying it?? But if you have read properly, with concentration, you will have understood, by all what I am saying, that **inevitable **referred to their attitude, because no one likes to be told that is doing wrong. Do you?

Two thoughts: first off, to claim that there is an idiomatic usage does not imply that there is only an idiomatic usage. Second, there are a number of words that are used only once in the Bible; the fact that they are used only once doesn’t demonstrate that they have no demonstrable meaning.

EXAMPLES FROM THE BIBLE… THAT ARE NOT RENDER WITH ONE OF THE POSSIBLE MEANINGS THAT THE DICTIONARY GIVES, LIKE IN THIS EXAMPLE WITH MISEO, IT DOES NOT HAVE THE MEANING TO LOVE LESS IS TO HATE. So this idiomatic usage for you it is used **ONLY **in this case, isn’t it???

I am starting to think that you just like to argue, so there must be something behind your behavior that you are hiding. Does it bother you my post because you have people close to you that have immoral behavior and you are not rebuking them or you yourself are sinning in some way or another, even only in your thoughts, and do not like what I said about hating evil deeds, even in oneself???

I would ask you to look at John 12:25 – “Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.” Are you really saying that you think that Jesus is telling you to have a passionate hatred for your human life?

I think you should go to some Bible classes to try to understand this elementary points.

You are taking out of context Jesus’ statement and then something that is said about yourself you suddenly generalized it in “hatred for human life”'

I am going to spell out for you again so that you understand.

Your quote Jn 12: 23-28 happens in the times leading Jesus to His Crucifixion:

“The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified." (By his death on the Cross. Therefore the next statement follows)

" 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. "

Now what he is saying is that if he does not died** we will not received** the salvation and all the blessings that He brought us by accepting death.

Now He is warning us:

25 He who loves his life loses it, and **he who hates his life in this world **will keep it for eternal life.

He is warning us because we also will be persecuted and killed. Not because we live immoral lives, for then the world will love us, no, but because we make plain, like our Lord, that their deeds are evil. Do you as a Catholic accept abortion? Contraception? Homosexuality (gays or lesbians)? Oppression of the poor? Aggressive behavior to parents? Prostitution?, Drogadiction? Just to mention some…

So what is to hate your own life?? Listen first to Jesus:

27 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name.”

When the Great Tribulation comes, you will be persecuted if you are a Christian, because we do not tolerate immorality. Therefore when you come in front of your murderers and they ask you to renounce to your Christianity to be save, will you at that moment start to think in all the beautiful times with your family at home, with your children playing in the beach, your times with your friends having something in the cafeteria, in your good job where you are making lots of money? If you start to think in all these things you are loving your life in this world more than our Lord. The next thing is that you assent to renounce to your believes because the world is very comfortable for you.

But if you hate your life in this world you will not be thinking in all these but in Christ who is seating at the right hand of God in heaven and thanking him to make you a martyr so that you will have eternal life and your witness will help many others to be strong at this point.

And after saying all these things are you going to insist that we should translate this passage **“he who hates his life in this world **will keep it for eternal life.” by he who love less his life in this world will keep it for eternal life… you really???

I AM NOT ANSWERING YOU ANYTHING ELSE.

In the love of Christ, by keeping His commandments.
Gloria

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[Gloria_de_G]

That’s true John 14:21
True

That particular passage talks about not following heretics like Νικολαϊτῶν
Which of course I agree

And if you notice in my first post down somewhere I said this:

" 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." Rev 2:6 (for our purposes does not matter who were the Nicolaitans neither what they were doing, it is enough for us that they were doing evil so that Christ hated their deeds)

I saw your link to the explanation about the Nicolatians and I think this two are more complete because they are mention twice in the Apocalypse:

newtorah.org/46.html Letter to Eesus

newtorah.org/61.html Letter to Pergamun

And again, we see a hierarchy of love, i.e the supreme importance to love God 1st, with our whole mind, soul, body and strength, just as the 1st commandment states, and not let anything or anyone get in the way of that…

This is excelent but the only problem here is how we know we love God with our whole mind, soul, body and strenght???

So please let me recomend you this thred on "What is real love? How Christ wants me to love?** I hope you do not mind…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=844442**

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

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[ready]

Dear Gloria,

It appears that the word “hate” has two different meanings in the Bible, depending on which passage you are reading. You are right when you say that we must love our neighbor, but others are right when they say we must love God first, for if we do not love God first and foremost before our neighbor, then we shall not be able to love our neighbor in the right way. God bless you.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

Ready many thanks, but I would like to ask you a question please.** Could you please spell out for me what is to love God**? I would like you to tell me exactly in what consists to love God and to love neighbor. I hope you will not mind.

In the love of Christ,
Gloria

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