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Pag_Hingowa
Guest
Is that what unconditional love means, or that woudn’t be love at all?
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Sair
Guest
Love means different things to different people.
Some consider ‘unconditional’ love to be the kind of commitment one invests in the welfare of one’s children, for example - a love that is directed towards the happiness and fulfilment of the object of such love, no matter the form of such happiness and fulfilment. Consider the Catholic parents who accept their son’s homosexual partnership, even though they are philosophically opposed to it.
But others consider ‘unconditional’ love to be the kind of devotion shown, for example, by a dog to its human - a love that persists despite abuse, despite destruction of the lover.
Yet another form of ‘unconditional’ love is the kind that consists in impersonal assistance to others in order to meet their needs. This is perhaps better described as charity.
I don’t pretend to know which of these ‘unconditional’ loves, if any (or even all) is advocated by the Catholic church. Personally, I believe love to be a complete acceptance of another, a willingness to share one’s self with another in whatever way will benefit the other - and also enrich one’s self. I also don’t believe that there is such a thing as truly ‘unconditional’ love - or if there is, I certainly do not wish my friends to love me in spite of what I am. I would like to think that they love me because, in some measure, I contribute to their happiness. Love must have an element of reciprocity, otherwise it is just blind, mindless devotion.
Some consider ‘unconditional’ love to be the kind of commitment one invests in the welfare of one’s children, for example - a love that is directed towards the happiness and fulfilment of the object of such love, no matter the form of such happiness and fulfilment. Consider the Catholic parents who accept their son’s homosexual partnership, even though they are philosophically opposed to it.
But others consider ‘unconditional’ love to be the kind of devotion shown, for example, by a dog to its human - a love that persists despite abuse, despite destruction of the lover.
Yet another form of ‘unconditional’ love is the kind that consists in impersonal assistance to others in order to meet their needs. This is perhaps better described as charity.
I don’t pretend to know which of these ‘unconditional’ loves, if any (or even all) is advocated by the Catholic church. Personally, I believe love to be a complete acceptance of another, a willingness to share one’s self with another in whatever way will benefit the other - and also enrich one’s self. I also don’t believe that there is such a thing as truly ‘unconditional’ love - or if there is, I certainly do not wish my friends to love me in spite of what I am. I would like to think that they love me because, in some measure, I contribute to their happiness. Love must have an element of reciprocity, otherwise it is just blind, mindless devotion.
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JRKH
Guest
Unconditional love means we do not love in order to get something back.
Placing conditions, such as reciprocity on it makes it a false and selfish love.
Peace
James
Placing conditions, such as reciprocity on it makes it a false and selfish love.
Peace
James
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DPMartin
Guest
Pag Hingowa
Grace may be unconditional but love? The word unconditional is not found in the Bible, but on love:
Ex:20:4: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
This sounds conditional to me. Also the Lord after he was risen showed Himself to those who loved Him, and not to those who did not love Him.
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JRKH
Guest
The Trick here is that the above passage does not say that God hates those who hate Him. It speaks of being jealous, and it speaks “visiting iniquity” and of showing mercy.
The thing about Love is that it is a two way street. I can love another unconditionally, but if that other person does not requite that love there will be restrictions placed on our relationship. Not by me, but by them.
Let’s see if I can explain…
A man has a good friend who has fallen on hard times. The man says to his friend, “All that I have is yours”. The friend responds, "you have worked hard for what you have and I do not wish to deprive you. Give me a small cot in a corner and some bread while I seek work and I will be satisfied.
Another man has a good friend who has fallen on hard times. The man says to his friend, “All that I have is yours”. The friend says, “Thank you”, then moves in taking the softest bed, eating heartily and does not not lift a finger to find work or help his host.
Which friend shows love to the man who showed unconditional love to his friend?
Mutual unconditional Love finds a balance for one will not withhold anything needed by another, and the other will not take any more than truly needed.
When One loves unconditionally and the other does not, there is an imbalance. One gives and the other takes. It is this imbalance that causes iniquity and the need for “mercy”, and for “Justice”.
Peace
James
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Pag_Hingowa
Guest
I liked your replies JRKH! You mentioned about ‘being jealous.’ I made a thread about it HERE. If you can please answer my question there.
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DPMartin
Guest
James
thanks for the reply
The Lord God has given what He has given to mankind, and He hasn’t withheld it from man and keeps His Word on the matter. But Love is love. You don’t have to have an relationship with some one to give what you might see they are in need of, clothes, food so on and so forth. But to have a caring relationship is different. To desire to be in the company of the other no matter the other’s circumstance is different.
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JRKH
Guest
As you say, Love is love…St John goes even Farther and says in 1 John 4:8, “He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.” So if God’s very nature is love, how can it be conditional?
The conditions are those we in our fallen sinful nature place on love…our love for God and our love for neighbor.
My desire to be in the company of another (ideally) should not effect my agape love for that person. Nor should it effect my desire to help them should they need it. (God help me to do better in this). I’ll wager that you and I and everyone reading this has known people of whom they would say, “He’s a good person and I love him but he drives me crazy when he…and I can’t hardly stand to be around him”. (Mine happens to be a Brother in law…
)It’s just a fact of life that sometimes we have personalities and traits of character that just rub another person the wrong way, or maybe we just don’t share the same interests. None of this should change the agape Love we have for our neighbor.
If it does, then we are filing to Love God and neighbor as commanded in Mt 22:36-40, for it is through loving each other taht we show our Love for God, who is Love.
Peace
James
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DPMartin
Guest
JamesAs you say, Love is love…St John goes even Farther and says in 1 John 4:8, "He who does not love does not know God; for God is love." So if God’s very nature is love, how can it be conditional?
The conditions are those we in our fallen sinful nature place on love…our love for God and our love for neighbor.
My desire to be in the company of another (ideally) should not effect my agape love for that person. Nor should it effect my desire to help them should they need it. (God help me to do better in this). I’ll wager that you and I and everyone reading this has known people of whom they would say, “He’s a good person and I love him but he drives me crazy when he…and I can’t hardly stand to be around him”. (Mine happens to be a Brother in law…
It’s just a fact of life that sometimes we have personalities and traits of character that just rub another person the wrong way, or maybe we just don’t share the same interests. None of this should change the agape Love we have for our neighbor.
If it does, then we are filing to Love God and neighbor as commanded in Mt 22:36-40, for it is through loving each other taht we show our Love for God, who is Love.
Peace
James
thanks for the reply
Yea, but what you must deal with, is the reality of the issue at hand. Households are normally based on a agreed life style, or maybe better said, way of life. And the desire of the house hold is usually the effort to fulfill, in the expectation of being fulfilled in the agreed way of life that is desired. And that which interferes with the daily living in the intention of that agreed fulfillment desired, can reek havoc in the household.
Lets face it, if he was not your brother in law you wouldn’t even know him, or his dilemma. And its because of a perceived family obligation, that you have agreed that he may live in your household, until further notice. And the truth is you didn’t join with your spouse to hang with him every day. So don’t fool yourself that, obligation should create guilt. Fulfillment of agreement never creates guilt. Consider what is acceptable in the Lord’s household and go from there. For it’s the Way He maintains His Household that shows us how to do the same. For if your looking to the Lord for answers, then look to His Ways.
The Lord is aware of your situation. Should the Presence of the Lord in your household stress the household, or heal it? A lot of people think they are being tested, but how can there be a test, if the answer is with you. Hence the Lord knows all. The solution is to seek the Lord’s Wisdom in the matter, in other words to plainly say, what does the Lord think on what you should to. And as Apostle James has declared, the Lord will freely give you Wisdom. And to seek Him out for the solution, that you may trust and act on, just might be the thing the Lord seeks of you.
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JRKH
Guest
DB,
I’m not sure that you and I actually disagree in any substantial way.
If one reads the Gospels, one sees rather quickly that Jesus places a great deal of emphasis on Love (agape), and on forgiveness.
Obviously we cannot control whether others return that love in kind, and sometimes we are limited in how we are able to express love because of various limitations that are more externally imposed than internal…For instance, Say I have a close and dear friend who desperately needs $10,000, and I have $10,000 (he has not asked for it). My desire, out of Christian Love, is to give him the money. However, I have family obligations - obligations to others whom I Love - that prevent my giving that money to him.
Such a circumstance does not change my Love for my friend, or my desire to help him. It only effects the means by which I might be of help.
My Love for him and my desire to meet him in heaven remains unconditional.
Peace
James
I’m not sure that you and I actually disagree in any substantial way.
If one reads the Gospels, one sees rather quickly that Jesus places a great deal of emphasis on Love (agape), and on forgiveness.
Obviously we cannot control whether others return that love in kind, and sometimes we are limited in how we are able to express love because of various limitations that are more externally imposed than internal…For instance, Say I have a close and dear friend who desperately needs $10,000, and I have $10,000 (he has not asked for it). My desire, out of Christian Love, is to give him the money. However, I have family obligations - obligations to others whom I Love - that prevent my giving that money to him.
Such a circumstance does not change my Love for my friend, or my desire to help him. It only effects the means by which I might be of help.
My Love for him and my desire to meet him in heaven remains unconditional.
Peace
James
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JimG
Guest
Of course one loves without judgment, but we should never act without judgment. All our actions require careful judgement and prudence.
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DPMartin
Guest
James (hope you meant DP, if not, Disregard)
thanks for the reply
I don’t know about disagree or agree, its just that, I’ve been there, done that. Even in your second example of a friend and the priorities one must maintain. It is wise to understand how its is that one agreement shouldn’t supercede the other. Or to maintain and agreement can also be, not to come into other agreements that are not in the fulfillment of, or, can prevent the fulfillment of a previous agreement.
In other words, in the Lord God’s view the primary agreement is God’s Word with mankind. Fulfilled in mankind, Son of God in Son of man, our Lord Jesus Christ, of which nothing else supercedes. God is faithful to proved means in the fulfillment of His agreement with mankind, hence Jesus Christ.
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DPMartin
Guest
James (hope you meant DP, if not Disregard)
thanks for the reply
I don’t know about disagree or agree, its just that, I’ve been there, done that. Even in your second example of a friend and the priorities one must maintain. It is wise to understand how its is that one agreement shouldn’t supercede the other. Or to maintain and agreement can also be, not to come into other agreements that are not in the fulfillment of, or, can prevent the fulfillment of a previous agreement.
In other words, in the Lord God’s view the primary agreement is God’s Word with mankind. Fulfilled in mankind, Son of God in Son of man, our Lord Jesus Christ, of which nothing else supercedes. God is faithful to proved means in the fulfillment of His agreement with mankind, hence Jesus Christ.
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DPMartin
Guest
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JimG
Guest
Ah well, that’s a more expansive and detailed question. One learns to make good judgments beginning in childhood, by learning right from wrong, and refining that sense of ethics and morals throughout life.
I think it is a mistake to simply take the attitude, that “I can’t judge” anyone else. True, I can’t judge the state of anyone’s soul, but I can and must judge their actions.
If my friend plans a robbery, even if he thinks it’s the right thing for him to do for him at the time, I can certainly judge it a bad action and advise him against it, try to stop him, or call the cops. I can’t in fact, relieve myself of responsibility by simply saying “I didn’t want to judge him.”
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jochoa
Guest
That is not what unconditional love completely means. Unconditional Love has greater meaning.
According to the Truth, unconditional love is always being patient and kind.
One aspect of patience is not passing judgment, one aspect of kindness is being fully obedient to the Truth. Sometimes we should love without judgment and “blindly.”
However, one aspect of kindness is seeking to greater understand that which you love. Another aspect of kindness is admonishing, which requires judging the quality of thoughts/actions. Sometimes we should love with judgment and “sight.”
Regarding Righteous and Effective Admonishing
Ask yourself 3 progressive questions to determine righteousness and effectiveness of Admonishment.
- Do you have Authority over the wrongdoer? If not, is the wrongdoer seeking your advice or companionship? If so, you are justified in admonishing and judging.
- Is your understanding and practice of the Faith accurate and wholesome? If so, you are righteous in admonishing.
- Can you fittingly* admonish the wrongdoer? If so, you are at the level of righteous judgment and effective admonishment.
*Judge exactly where the wrongdoer is having difficulty applying God’s Word. This could range from determining which aspect of His Word is not properly understood to misunderstanding of the aspect of His Word to lack of understanding how to do His Word.
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DPMartin
Guest
JimG
thanks for the reply
Friends fight side by side the common enemy, and their common desire is the attraction. In some circles that could be no marriage amongst the young, and stay single men. And support each other therein.
But in the case of the Lord, the Lord God is the attraction, and seeking to do otherwise is the enemy. For if a man agrees to the Ways of the Lord, then he can be corrected there in, but if he doesn’t agree to the Ways of the Lord, then he is not morally, or ethically bond to consider correction in the things of the Lord. If he agrees to the Ways of the Lord it doesn’t matter his background, nor his ways of thinking of what is good to do, for he agrees that the Lord’s Ways are good.
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