Should We Just Toll the Death Knell for the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite?

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TrueLight said:
Thanks for the link.

So this is not usually sung at a missa cantata?
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It depends on whether or not it is a parish where the faithful know how to sing the ordinary. Pope St. Pius X encouraged all of the faithful to sing the ordinary of the Mass if they can.
 
The death knell?

After persevering for 40 years saying that the Old Mass had never been abrogated, to have Pope Benedict vindicate the position, and to see traditional seminaries bursting, Traditionalists are going to become despondent and speak of the death of what can no longer be said to be suppressed, the Old Mass? Even with the continuing cloud of alleged irregularity against it, the SSPX seminary in America has been housing seminarians three to a room this year, where they are intended for single rooms. While this years class of young men who are to be ordained is relatively small, vocations continually increase.

On the diocesan level, it isn’t old “nostalgic” priests who are enthusiastic about Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio. We have to remember that the priests who are now in their 60’s and 70’s received their formation during a period when it was the new Mass that was new and exciting. They have stayed true to their formation. But many newly ordained priests in the area where I live, our future bishops and cardinals, appear much more open minded about the Extraordinary Form than our current leadership. The signs have never been more hopeful in my lifetime.

Anyone who might think that the Old Mass is going away seems about 40 years too late. The proposition might have seemed plausible in 1970. Not now. No way. Lay adherents of the Traditional Mass aren’t just old timers, but young folks, with lots of kids, who love it with a passion that will never be extinguished. If anything, appreciation for this treasure is more powerful than ever, thanks to how we have seen that it had almost disappeared. Never again. Never again. If the Lord tarries, and we move out to the stars, the Traditional Latin Mass will follow.

Nope. The night is past and a new a day is dawning for the Traditional Latin Mass.

PP
 
NO no no no no!!! what r u talking about? The Holy Spirit is just getting started. The reason the Holy Father is doing this is to bring back a stronger sense of the sacred in our churches. More reverence at the liturgy also. Listen to the Mass on EWTN. This is what our Holy Father wants to happen. The best of both. Latin connects us with the beginning of our Church It was the universal language of Jesus’s time, just as english is today. Scientist, doctors, and lawyers still use it. US Marines know more latin than most catholics. All because of the Church. We must perserve it’t use. I don’t know if we will return to a frequent use of the ER in every parish but this attention to it’s revival will have a profound effect on generation to come. In my parish i am campaigning for it. U have to first get a consenus,- like minded people, before u even think of going to the pastor. Also, be open to compromise. We have walked into the desert for the last 40 yr. It will take time to return to the promised land. Suggest incorperating latin into the english mass if he is unwilling to consider a Latin mass. Right now I have to travel only 20 min to attend a latin mass, not bad. But I think most pastors can be persuaded to start using more latin in the english mass. Then Gregorian chant!!! It is very ironic that OUR chant was a pop chart hit a couple of yr. ago. Its a hit with the secular music business, and u can hardly ever hear it in our churchs. Shame on us!!! Semper Fi… Rich
 
TrueLight said:
Oftentimes I see people practically mocking people who attend the EF by stating that only a small percentage of Catholics is remotely interested in the EF

Those posts are uncharitable, sure. But are they true?

Should we just lament the passing of something great? Has the TLM seen its glory days and now it is at the twilight of its years?

It has become the Extraordinary form and never will be the Ordinary again, right?.

Should we just lament over its prominence of old and just be happy that *Ecclesia Universalis *made enough provisions that no one can stop us from having our TlMs?

How much truth is there to the claim that only a tiny, tiny fraction of Catholics who are not able to adapt, hold on to the TLM for dear life.

Anyone have any statistics?

Where do you see the Extraordinary Form going in the next 10 years?
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There are many resources to delve into online about the EF. You can learn alot, just research. Go to other sites and read. Read about what is going on at the Vatican, etc; and who is saying what. A lot here on CAF is opinion .
 
Bigcat71 said:
I will relate a story here. Shortly after Pope John Paul 2 allowed the Traditional Mass to be celebrated, the people of San Diego requested that they be allowed to have one. A Priest was assigned by the Diocese to celebrate the Masses. He did so out of obedience, but told people that he had no special love for the Traditional Form of the Mass. However as the years went by he stated that he saw just the exposure to the Traditional Mass led him to celebrate the Ordinary Form more reverently. At first there was no set place for the Mass to be held. Sometime later the Diocese permitted the Mass to be celebrated at the cemetary chapel at St. Josephs Cemetary. This Chapel is inside of the mauseleum itself… The Chapel was very small and the crowds large. Standing room only to be exact. The overflow of people spilled over into the halls and among the crypts themselves, which I actually thought vividly brought home th realization that we are one Church, the living and the dead.

Anyway, every Sunday a rosary was said asking the Blesssed Virgin for intercession for help in getting a permanent Church so that the Mass could be properly celebrated. This went on for many years, during which time the members of the congregation steadily grew in number. Young people, families, singles, old people, white, black, Hispanic, Asian you name it. When the Priest that had been celebrating the Mass retired a new priest from the Norbertine Abbey at Silver Lake, California was assigned. The Masses continued unabated. On occasion the Mass was allowed to be celebrated at other area churches. On several occasions the Arch Bishop himself stopped by and celebrated the Mass there.

In 2008 the prayers of the faithful were answered and St Annes Church, that had been shut down in 2006 due to declining membership, was assigned to be a fully traditional Parish run by the FSSP. Now they celebrate Traditional Masses twice daily as well as four a day on Sundays. I think that the San Diego experience is more typical of what is really going on with the Traditional Mass then what you see posted on here by those who want to see it gone for good

…stannes-sandiego.org/
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Amen. There but for the Grace of God…
 
rsmyth75 said:
NO no no no no!!! what r u talking about? The Holy Spirit is just getting started. The reason the Holy Father is doing this is to bring back a stronger sense of the sacred in our churches. More reverence at the liturgy also. Listen to the Mass on EWTN. This is what our Holy Father wants to happen. The best of both. Latin connects us with the beginning of our Church It was the universal language of Jesus’s time, just as english is today. Scientist, doctors, and lawyers still use it. US Marines know more latin than most catholics. All because of the Church. We must perserve it’t use. I don’t know if we will return to a frequent use of the ER in every parish but this attention to it’s revival will have a profound effect on generation to come. In my parish i am campaigning for it. U have to first get a consenus,- like minded people, before u even think of going to the pastor. Also, be open to compromise. We have walked into the desert for the last 40 yr. It will take time to return to the promised land. Suggest incorperating latin into the english mass if he is unwilling to consider a Latin mass. Right now I have to travel only 20 min to attend a latin mass, not bad. But I think most pastors can be persuaded to start using more latin in the english mass. Then Gregorian chant!!! It is very ironic that OUR chant was a pop chart hit a couple of yr. ago. Its a hit with the secular music business, and u can hardly ever hear it in our churchs. Shame on us!!! Semper Fi… Rich
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The Holy Father has spoken at length about this and He does not want the two forms mixed together in any way. His intention is to keep the tradition of the Extraordinary Form alive-- not to confuse the matter further by mixing and making a hybrid.
 
khawk2 said:
The Holy Father has spoken at length about this and He does not want the two forms mixed together in any way. His intention is to keep the tradition of the Extraordinary Form alive-- not to confuse the matter further by mixing and making a hybrid.
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Well some would disagree and some believe we are in fact moving towards a hybrid form.
 
TrueLight said:
Well some would disagree and some believe we are in fact moving towards a hybrid form.
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The TLM as it is celebrated today with the emphasized active participation is already a hybrid form. In its origin, and until St Pius X it was the exclusive affair between Christ and the clerics, the laity being bystanders only. Even the Gregorian chant which is now the heart of the participation was reinvented by the Solesmes monks in the 1880-s
 
TrueLight said:
Well some would disagree and some believe we are in fact moving towards a hybrid form.
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One thing to keep in mind the OF itself has as many subforms as has cultures and vernaculars. The character of a Polish OF Mass or a Spanish OF Mass is different than an English OF Mass, for example. It is difficult to find one language or culture that will please all. The EF, on the other hand, has its own culture and theoretically should have a much wider appeal, though this “neutrality” seems to have very little support today. Maybe all the OF Masses will someday be uniform, probably not. But until that day, I don’t think much will be accomplished by “hybridding” just an English OF with the EF, which is what I tend to think these believers want to happen.
 
laszlo said:
The TLM as it is celebrated today with the emphasized active participation is already a hybrid form. In its origin, and until St Pius X it was the exclusive affair between Christ and the clerics, the laity being bystanders only. Even the Gregorian chant which is now the heart of the participation was reinvented by the Solesmes monks in the 1880-s
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Not everywhere. Most priests who celebrate the Extraordinary form say the black and do the red. They work hard to get the rubrics correct. Since most of the priests who were trained in the Extraordinary form have passed the younger priests, not schooled in Latin are learning the latin Mass at an older age in a Liberal Society where the militant teaching of the early and mid twentieth century is no longer present and modernism (look at the new Churches) and liberalism abound. Their task becomes more difficult because many of the priests from the Extraordinary form were altar boys and learned the latin as children.

The chants go back for centuries and in many churches there is no participation except during benediction.

Many years ago only men sung the chants. Knowing that Christ was a Jew helps to understand the separation of women and men and their roles (or lack thereof) in the Church.
 
TrueLight said:
Oftentimes I see people practically mocking people who attend the EF by stating that only a small percentage of Catholics is remotely interested in the EF

Should we just lament the passing of something great? Has the TLM seen its glory days and now it is at the twilight of its years?

How much truth is there to the claim that only a tiny, tiny fraction of Catholics who are not able to adapt, hold on to the TLM for dear life.

Where do you see the Extraordinary Form going in the next 10 years?
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In my experience, most Catholic born after the V2 have no clue about the EF. I certainly didn’t until 2 years ago when I discovered the wonderful world of catholic blogs and the CAF. When I talk to my church going friends (we are all in mid 30s) they are very surprised to hear about this. I am convinced that if information was available, if priests and bishops did what the Holy Fathers asks of them we would have a big increase in people who attend. Some would probably come out of curiosity and perhaps not show up again, others would stay. I don’t think that the problem is the EF in itself but in the ideological opposition to it that is very strong. I am optimistic however, and expect to see the EF more widespread in the future. I don’t think I will live to see it restored to its proper place but I pray that my grandchildren will.
 
laszlo said:
The TLM as it is celebrated today with the emphasized active participation is already a hybrid form. In its origin, and until St Pius X it was the exclusive affair between Christ and the clerics, the laity being bystanders only. Even the Gregorian chant which is now the heart of the participation was reinvented by the Solesmes monks in the 1880-s
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Thank the Lord for that!
khawk2 said:
Not everywhere. Most priests who celebrate the Extraordinary form say the black and do the red. T
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What does that mean exactly? I’ve seen it posted in a couple of threads.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
In my experience, most Catholic born after the V2 have no clue about the EF. I certainly didn’t until 2 years ago when I discovered the wonderful world of catholic blogs and the CAF. When I talk to my church going friends (we are all in mid 30s) they are very surprised to hear about this. I am convinced that if information was available, if priests and bishops did what the Holy Fathers asks of them we would have a big increase in people who attend. Some would probably come out of curiosity and perhaps not show up again, others would stay. I don’t think that the problem is the EF in itself but in the ideological opposition to it that is very strong. I am optimistic however, and expect to see the EF more widespread in the future. I don’t think I will live to see it restored to its proper place but I pray that my grandchildren will.
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You know, we didn’t have YouTube up until about 6 years ago. I really believe blogs and sites like YouTube where one can actually see an EF mass before attending (like I did), will spur attendance tremendously as long as the EF mass itself is not suppressed.
 
TrueLight said:
Oh I just saw this! Thanks for taking the time to post a picture. 🙂

So does the term basically mean, to go by the book?
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It means that the Holy Mass and the Divine Office is the prayer of the Church, and there is no place for individual innovations. Yes, go by the book.
 
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