Should we like Satan?

[fakename]

Now God “likes” Satan enough to keep him around for His own purposes.

And since Christians are to like what God likes, then should we like Satan too in some way?

 

[Holly3278]

No, of course not. If we like our enemy, we will be divided.

DRC: Matthew Chapter 12

[25] And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. [26] And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand? [27] And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. [28] But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you. [29] Or how can any one enter into the house of the strong, and rifle his goods, unless he first bind the strong? and then he will rifle his house. [30] He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. [31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. [33] Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known.

 

[PhilTOP]

Satan is the Great Accuser and is our adversary before the Lord. He is trying to take you with him into the desolation away from the Lord because his misery loves company. Angels are not like people. Once they make up their monds, they cannot change them. He made his decision to leave the presence of the Lord. He will be cast down in the end as appears in Rev 12:10 “For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.”

Consider him a vicious attack dog looking for whatever weakness he can find. Your faith in the Lord keeps him on a restraining leash.

 

[seagal]

Are you serious? I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but if you sincerely aren’t sure then either you’re way over-thinking things or you are incapable of making your own sound judgements. Satan is not simply a creature that made some wrong choices, he is the epitome of evil. We are not called to “like” him out of Christian duty.

 

[puzzleannie]

Now God “likes” Satan enough to keep him around for His own purposes.

how do your reason from God created Satan, God does not destroy and exterminate those he creates, God tolerates Satan’s activities in the world in order to bring out greater good, to: God “likes” Satan? It would be interesting to know who you “like” if that is how you define that situation.

 

[Barbkw]

He’s an unredeemable unrepentant archangel. Jesus called him a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

He refused to serve God and humans.

 

[meltzerboy]

Now God “likes” Satan enough to keep him around for His own purposes.

And since Christians are to like what God likes, then should we like Satan too in some way?

The role of Satan as defined in Judaism is different from that of the Satan of Christianity and Islam. First, he is the seducer who tempts us; however, he (like G-d Himself) does NOT wish us to give in to his temptation. He is also the Angel of Death, who escorts us to Purgatory for atonement and who also executes the “guilty” sentence passed by G-d after we judge our own actions by reviewing our life. That is, G-d enables Satan to separate us from Him since G-d cannot bear to do so Himself. In short, Satan does not have the evil connotations associated with the Satan of Christianity and Islam although, in a sense, he does the “dirty work.”

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Now God “likes” Satan enough to keep him around for His own purposes.

And since Christians are to like what God likes, then should we like Satan too in some way?

fakename, I suspect you’re confusing like and love here. It would be difficult to claim that God liked Satan, thought he was his buddy, a clever raconteur, or believed him to be a generally fun-loving cosmopolitan sort of bloke. Mostly because Satan is none of those things, and God knows it (so does Satan, try as he might to appear more lovely). Still less can one say that God approves of Satan’s work (in that sense of the word like).

We can, however, say that God loves Satan as a mother or father loves a wayward child. We don’t have that same relationship with Satan, but as fellow creatures and also as God’s beloved, I don’t believe we’re called to hate or despise Satan. We *are *called to resist him. And many of the Desert Fathers, if I remember correctly, believed it was appropriate to pity him and mourn for the loss of the beautiful and good in him which was the occassion of his fall. I think this is the proper limit to the feelings we can have for him: pity and resistance. And how do we resist? Not through hatred (did Christ show him hatred in the wilderness?) but through faith, through clinging to what is Good, True, Beautiful. You do not lighten a dark room by removing the darkness from it by the shovel-full. No. You light a light.

In that vein, I would add that we should resist seeing him as the embodiment of evil (unless we want to court some dualistic or Manichaean heresy). Classically understood, Evil is the absence of the Good. Existence, for instance, is a Good. For Satan to be the embodiment of evil, the perfection of evil, as it were, he would eventually have to cease to exist. But insofar as he merely exists, there remains good in him, however degraded, which prevents him from falling completely into the nothingness he desires for himself and for others. This good in him is no doubt a source of howling pain. But it is, nonetheless, a good.

Bottom line? No, we are not asked to like Satan. Nor are we asked to hate him. The proper response is resistance. And a natural response may be pity. But more than that? I would not care to speculate.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

meltzerboy

**Satan does not have the evil connotations associated with the Satan of Christianity and Islam although, in a sense, he does the “dirty work.” **

So in the Jewish view where does Satan reside? In heaven with the other angels?

 

[raaucoin]

Should we like Satan? I just recently renewed my promises to reject satan, all of his works and empy promises!

 

[fakename]

Grace & Peace!

fakename, I suspect you’re confusing like and love here. It would be difficult to claim that God liked Satan, thought he was his buddy, a clever raconteur, or believed him to be a generally fun-loving cosmopolitan sort of bloke. Mostly because Satan is none of those things, and God knows it (so does Satan, try as he might to appear more lovely). Still less can one say that God approves of Satan’s work (in that sense of the word like).

We can, however, say that God loves Satan as a mother or father loves a wayward child. We don’t have that same relationship with Satan, but as fellow creatures and also as God’s beloved, I don’t believe we’re called to hate or despise Satan. We *are *called to resist him. And many of the Desert Fathers, if I remember correctly, believed it was appropriate to pity him and mourn for the loss of the beautiful and good in him which was the occassion of his fall. I think this is the proper limit to the feelings we can have for him: pity and resistance. And how do we resist? Not through hatred (did Christ show him hatred in the wilderness?) but through faith, through clinging to what is Good, True, Beautiful. You do not lighten a dark room by removing the darkness from it by the shovel-full. No. You light a light.

In that vein, I would add that we should resist seeing him as the embodiment of evil (unless we want to court some dualistic or Manichaean heresy). Classically understood, Evil is the absence of the Good. Existence, for instance, is a Good. For Satan to be the embodiment of evil, the perfection of evil, as it were, he would eventually have to cease to exist. But insofar as he merely exists, there remains good in him, however degraded, which prevents him from falling completely into the nothingness he desires for himself and for others. This good in him is no doubt a source of howling pain. But it is, nonetheless, a good.

Bottom line? No, we are not asked to like Satan. Nor are we asked to hate him. The proper response is resistance. And a natural response may be pity. But more than that? I would not care to speculate.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

I think a more basic question is should we like whatever is good in evil? It seems reasonable to like what is good and not what is evil so yeah, one should like the good in evil. But on the other hand, we don’t normally praise a bug when it bites us inasmuch as the biting furthers its ends and we don’t praise say, an enemy soldier when we are fighting him, just because he is handsome. So maybe the devil doesn’t deserve much “good feeling” after all? Should we dislike completely, or some other mean between dislike and like? This question can only be answered if one answers whether we should like whatever is good even though it resides with evil.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I think a more basic question is should we like whatever is good in evil?

fakename, this is an interesting question, and the answer slightly more complex than a simple yes or no. Evil is the absence of the Good. Therefore it is impossible for there to be any Good in Evil. So the question is sort of moot.

It seems reasonable to like what is good and not what is evil so yeah, one should like the good in evil.

You should be careful when arguing from this perspective as it looks like you’re edging towards identifying the Good with the pleasurable or likable and the evil with the unlikable. True, the Good is supremely likable! In fact, adorable. But it doesn’t follow from that that doing the Good or living a life that is Good is pleasurable in any conventional sense. God is Love, and the Good is Love in action considered from a moral perspective, but doing the Good, doing the Work of Love may involve considerable sacrifice on our part. In fact, Our Lord suggests that it involves losing ourselves entirely, in order to find ourselves in Him. That process of renunciation of the self can be (in fact, is) very painful. But it’s Good.

In general, when you find yourself thinking of binaries, the Good on the one hand, and the Evil (construed as its opposite) on the other, you can be pretty sure that you’re not thinking of Good or Evil in the right way. Because the Good *absolutely transcends *the Evil, it cannot be defined in the same terms or in the same way that the Evil is defined.

But on the other hand, we don’t normally praise a bug when it bites us inasmuch as the biting furthers its ends and we don’t praise say, an enemy soldier when we are fighting him, just because he is handsome.

The behavior of a bug, though, is not subject to moral qualifications. The bug does what it does. That it inconveniences us does not make the bug any less beautifully designed and adapted to its place in nature. Again, be careful of identifying the Good with what is merely pleasant.

In the situation of the enemy soldier, it is incumbent upon us to recognize in him or her a fellow human being, a child of God, bearing the image of God and to love them as such. Insofar as we are able, it behooves us to acknowledge whatever actual virtues such a person demonstrates or models. Insofar as we are able, it also behooves us to acknowledge and take action where such a person departs from virtue or impugns it.

In a situation such as warfare, it must be acknowledged, I believe, that war is fundamentally an evil in itself. Finding the good on either side becomes that much more complicated, particularly when moral questions have a tendency to become redefined in terms of national or political interests or expedience (witness debates on whether or not torture is permissable or ethical and the subsequent debates on what actually constitutes torture). Because of this muddying of the waters, it becomes that much more incumbent upon us to seek to focus on, discern, and uphold human life and dignity as well as real virtue whenever and wherever we encounter it. And we can be helped in this process of discernment with the knowledge that we will not find the Good in the destruction of human life, dignity, or virtue.

So maybe the devil doesn’t deserve much “good feeling” after all? Should we dislike completely, or some other mean between dislike and like? This question can only be answered if one answers whether we should like whatever is good even though it resides with evil.

There’s no point in feeling cozy about the devil. Again, the only things we can do are resist and pity. The question of dislike doesn’t really enter into it. We can certainly deplore and reject his works. We can even reject him–but that rejection is one of renunciation. When we reject the devil and all his pomps and works, we renounce our part in them, and commit ourselves to leading the life that God has called us to lead. Hatred here is pointless. You can only love or hate something that actually is or exists (even if it is only an idea). Evil is absence, not presence. It’s possible, I suppose, to hate the idea of evil, but in reality, there’s no there there to hate. We can deplore the denigration or destruction of good things (which is how we notice the traces of evil in the world), but our job is to heal the wounded good, to help up those who fall, to bring peace to the troubled, hope to the afflicted, succour to those in need. And all by and with God’s grace. Fellow feeling with the devil isn’t the point. Resist, pity, move on, doing, as the prayer says, “all such good works as [God] has prepared for us to walk in.”

Hope this helps!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[fakename]

Grace & Peace!

fakename, this is an interesting question, and the answer slightly more complex than a simple yes or no. Evil is the absence of the Good. Therefore it is impossible for there to be any Good in Evil. So the question is sort of moot.

You should be careful when arguing from this perspective as it looks like you’re edging towards identifying the Good with the pleasurable or likable and the evil with the unlikable. True, the Good is supremely likable! In fact, adorable. But it doesn’t follow from that that doing the Good or living a life that is Good is pleasurable in any conventional sense. God is Love, and the Good is Love in action considered from a moral perspective, but doing the Good, doing the Work of Love may involve considerable sacrifice on our part. In fact, Our Lord suggests that it involves losing ourselves entirely, in order to find ourselves in Him. That process of renunciation of the self can be (in fact, is) very painful. But it’s Good.

In general, when you find yourself thinking of binaries, the Good on the one hand, and the Evil (construed as its opposite) on the other, you can be pretty sure that you’re not thinking of Good or Evil in the right way. Because the Good *absolutely transcends *the Evil, it cannot be defined in the same terms or in the same way that the Evil is defined.

The behavior of a bug, though, is not subject to moral qualifications. The bug does what it does. That it inconveniences us does not make the bug any less beautifully designed and adapted to its place in nature. Again, be careful of identifying the Good with what is merely pleasant.

In the situation of the enemy soldier, it is incumbent upon us to recognize in him or her a fellow human being, a child of God, bearing the image of God and to love them as such. Insofar as we are able, it behooves us to acknowledge whatever actual virtues such a person demonstrates or models. Insofar as we are able, it also behooves us to acknowledge and take action where such a person departs from virtue or impugns it.

In a situation such as warfare, it must be acknowledged, I believe, that war is fundamentally an evil in itself. Finding the good on either side becomes that much more complicated, particularly when moral questions have a tendency to become redefined in terms of national or political interests or expedience (witness debates on whether or not torture is permissable or ethical and the subsequent debates on what actually constitutes torture). Because of this muddying of the waters, it becomes that much more incumbent upon us to seek to focus on, discern, and uphold human life and dignity as well as real virtue whenever and wherever we encounter it. And we can be helped in this process of discernment with the knowledge that we will not find the Good in the destruction of human life, dignity, or virtue.

There’s no point in feeling cozy about the devil. Again, the only things we can do are resist and pity. The question of dislike doesn’t really enter into it. We can certainly deplore and reject his works. We can even reject him–but that rejection is one of renunciation. When we reject the devil and all his pomps and works, we renounce our part in them, and commit ourselves to leading the life that God has called us to lead. Hatred here is pointless. You can only love or hate something that actually is or exists (even if it is only an idea). Evil is absence, not presence. It’s possible, I suppose, to hate the idea of evil, but in reality, there’s no there there to hate. We can deplore the denigration or destruction of good things (which is how we notice the traces of evil in the world), but our job is to heal the wounded good, to help up those who fall, to bring peace to the troubled, hope to the afflicted, succour to those in need. And all by and with God’s grace. Fellow feeling with the devil isn’t the point. Resist, pity, move on, doing, as the prayer says, “all such good works as [God] has prepared for us to walk in.”

Hope this helps!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

I think I agree. Would it be wrong to say that everything is good in different senses, so everything is open to being appreciated but not in the same sense. That is, food is appreciated but not in the same sense as the good man is appreciated. Similarly the devil is appreciated but not in the sense that he brings joy to our lives, or that he is admirable but rather he is at least known and since will and intellect are dependent on each other, to acknowledge the existence of a thing is a way of saying that it is at least not all bad. Is that the highest complement for the devil -that he is at least not all bad?

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I think I agree. Would it be wrong to say that everything is good in different senses, so everything is open to being appreciated but not in the same sense. That is, food is appreciated but not in the same sense as the good man is appreciated.

We can definitely say this: God created all things and called them good. But since the fall, we cannot say that all things remain good in exactly the way that they were created to be. There are things that are more good or less good.

Where *actions *are concerned, however, we cannot make the same statement. What we do with the good things that God has given us is not always good. This is where the moral dimension of evil enters into the picture. The actions that we commit which destroy or seek to destroy the good in ourselves or in creation, those are evil and sinful actions. There is no good in them. God, in his mercy, may draw or create good from our sinful and destructive actions, but the good that is drawn or revealed is never a result of an evil action, but the result of God’s love and grace and the resilience of the Good.

Does that make sense?

Similarly the devil is appreciated but not in the sense that he brings joy to our lives, or that he is admirable

I’d steer away from appreciations of the devil. Again: resist, and pity.

but rather he is at least known and since will and intellect are dependent on each other, to acknowledge the existence of a thing is a way of saying that it is at least not all bad. Is that the highest complement for the devil -that he is at least not all bad?

Insofar as something is, yes, it cannot be completely evil. That’s not saying much (though on another level, it says a lot about the mercy of God!). Perhaps if one wished to pay the devil a compliment, the most one could say is that he exists, that God created him, and while that’s certainly not bad at all (!), one then has only to look at what the devil has made himself to arrive, once more, at the by-now familiar prescription: resist and pity.

Even so, I imagine that his very existence (being in itself a good) is a source of much pain to him. While, from our perspective of looking for and magnifying the good, saying that he exists may be the best we can say, from his perspective I can imagine that it remains one of the most wounding and insulting things. For a creature who wished to be God to have to remain dependent upon God for his very being (as all creatures must!)–well, his very existence as such is an insult to his pride. That is, what remains good in him has nothing to do with him, does not come from him. Insofar as it remains in him, he must, therefore, hate it, and want nothing to do with it–even though it is the simple fact of his being created by a loving God. How sad! And also, how pathetic!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[slywakka250]

I understand that there are many things not to like about satan, but I can’t help but feel bad for him. Does satan enjoy being who he is?? Does satan enjoy all the negative energy we send his way?? is Satan fulfilled and happy in his role as tempter and evil one??

I don’t believe any being is truly irredeemable. I see Satan as a damaged soul. I’m curious as to what happened to him that turned him into the “monster” that he is today. Where is the compassion? surely God loves satan with a profound love, since satan is his precious creation.

what are satan’s reasons for acting as he does? what are his deepest desires as he prowls the world eating up souls, as people sometimes say?? he is a very curious creature. why I don’t doubt satan is beautiful. he may have taken a dark path, but satan can’t be satisfied with all the suffering he must go through doing all his evil work. I truly do feel compassion and sorry for him, and hope that satan can be seen as good someday.

yes I have a very hard time understanding and believing in the existence of personal moral evil. it is a very strange concept for me.

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzerboy

**Satan does not have the evil connotations associated with the Satan of Christianity and Islam although, in a sense, he does the “dirty work.” **

So in the Jewish view where does Satan reside? In heaven with the other angels?

Yes, Satan is one of the angels in heaven. However, he spends most of his time away from home, here on Earth tempting us. This is one of the jobs given to him by G-d, in addition to being the Angel of Death and the executor of G-d’s sentence of separation. Satan’s main purpose is to teach us to exercise our free will for the purpose of resisting his temptation and doing good. He is not considered a fallen angel and is not in competition with G-d, just as none of the other angels are. Judaism has no conception of an ultimate battle between Satan and G-d, or between humans and G-d. The real battle is within ourselves: between being tempted by Satan and learning to resist the temptation and thereby becoming more godly.

 

[fakename]

Grace & Peace!

We can definitely say this: God created all things and called them good. But since the fall, we cannot say that all things remain good in exactly the way that they were created to be. There are things that are more good or less good.

Where *actions *are concerned, however, we cannot make the same statement. What we do with the good things that God has given us is not always good. This is where the moral dimension of evil enters into the picture. The actions that we commit which destroy or seek to destroy the good in ourselves or in creation, those are evil and sinful actions. There is no good in them. God, in his mercy, may draw or create good from our sinful and destructive actions, but the good that is drawn or revealed is never a result of an evil action, but the result of God’s love and grace and the resilience of the Good.

Does that make sense?

I’d steer away from appreciations of the devil. Again: resist, and pity.

Insofar as something is, yes, it cannot be completely evil. That’s not saying much (though on another level, it says a lot about the mercy of God!). Perhaps if one wished to pay the devil a compliment, the most one could say is that he exists, that God created him, and while that’s certainly not bad at all (!), one then has only to look at what the devil has made himself to arrive, once more, at the by-now familiar prescription: resist and pity.

Even so, I imagine that his very existence (being in itself a good) is a source of much pain to him. While, from our perspective of looking for and magnifying the good, saying that he exists may be the best we can say, from his perspective I can imagine that it remains one of the most wounding and insulting things. For a creature who wished to be God to have to remain dependent upon God for his very being (as all creatures must!)–well, his very existence as such is an insult to his pride. That is, what remains good in him has nothing to do with him, does not come from him. Insofar as it remains in him, he must, therefore, hate it, and want nothing to do with it–even though it is the simple fact of his being created by a loving God. How sad! And also, how pathetic!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

I think I have almost all the info. I need. But one final question: is it appropriate to admire some quality of a demon: say intelligence, immateriality, or power? By themselves these qualities seem okay but their intimate connection w/demons who turn their intelligence into craftiness, and power to tyranny, make them seem bad. But immateriality is still there as is the intellectual nature so can these arouse a feeling of being impressed?

 

[seagal]

I think I have almost all the info. I need. But one final question: is it appropriate to admire some quality of a demon: say intelligence, immateriality, or power? By themselves these qualities seem okay but their intimate connection w/demons who turn their intelligence into craftiness, and power to tyranny, make them seem bad. But immateriality is still there as is the intellectual nature so can these arouse a feeling of being impressed?

The point of trying to see the good, or the admirable qualities in a person is so that you can appreciate them or emulate them or perhaps find something loveable in someone you don’t feel loveable towards. Trying to find the good in a demon (a spiritual creature of power) would hold the same possibility of finding something to emulate and possibly empathize with. This is a dangerous path. They may well be intelligent and crafty but they weild their powers with the sole purpose of turning you away from God. You can find these same qualities in the angels and saints, who also have the added quality of loving God with all their being. They should be your role models.

It’s been said that Satan’s greatest trick is convincing people that he doesn’t exist. I think second to that is convincing people that he’s someone to admire and sympathize because he’s really not that bad.

 

[fakename]

The point of trying to see the good, or the admirable qualities in a person is so that you can appreciate them or emulate them or perhaps find something loveable in someone you don’t feel loveable towards. Trying to find the good in a demon (a spiritual creature of power) would hold the same possibility of finding something to emulate and possibly empathize with. This is a dangerous path. They may well be intelligent and crafty but they weild their powers with the sole purpose of turning you away from God. You can find these same qualities in the angels and saints, who also have the added quality of loving God with all their being. They should be your role models.

It’s been said that Satan’s greatest trick is convincing people that he doesn’t exist. I think second to that is convincing people that he’s someone to admire and sympathize because he’s really not that bad.

I’ve come around to this position too -I figure everything has something good about it but one must judge with proportionality (and from a certain point-of-view) and in relation to so many things and so many highest values, the devil is so bad, the only reasonable attitude would be to reject him.

 

[seagal]

I’ve come around to this position too -I figure everything has something good about it but one must judge with proportionality (and from a certain point-of-view) and in relation to so many things and so many highest values, the devil is so bad, the only reasonable attitude would be to reject him.

I have to say I’m very relieved to hear you say that (so to speak)