Should we not worship Holy people? (i.e. saints/angels, etc.)

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kdganey1991

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In Revelation 22:8-9: …I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Luke 19:31 also says something about people not listening if somebody rises from the dead. Does this mean people like Mary do not come back to us?

What do we get of this? Does this mean we should not bow down before a Holy figure if they ever do appear to us?

:confused:
 
It would depend on Whom you are expecting.
Bowing does not necessitate worship.
 
Catholics only worship God. Catholics do not worship angels or Saints.
 
Luke 19:31 also says something about people not listening if somebody rises from the dead. Does this mean people like Mary do not come back to us?
When Abraham says, “If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead.”

this is a reference to Jesus rising from the dead. Jesus is saying that even after he rises from the dead many will not believe.

Mary has never risen from the dead. She has appeared to many people but this is considered ‘private’ revelation and is not required to be believed in. In fact the Church will only say that some apparitions are ‘worthy’ of belief. She doesn’t appear in corporeal form like Jesus did.

You may not realize that all Marian dogma points to Jesus and who he is. It’s not really about Mary at all. But scripture does say she is to be called ‘blessed’ by all ages so we should honor her above all other human creatures. She’s not a goddess and doesn’t replace Jesus. She is the main intercessor with her Son who is God.

What good Jewish boy could ever refuse a request from his mother? 😃
 
In Revelation 22:8-9: …I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Luke 19:31 also says something about people not listening if somebody rises from the dead. Does this mean people like Mary do not come back to us?

What do we get of this? Does this mean we should not bow down before a Holy figure if they ever do appear to us?

:confused:
yeah…you are cofused definitely…you are taking passages from the Bible literally, out of context…my suggestion is to read not just a single passage, but read entire sections to get a sense of the meaning of entire passages…what you are doing is proof texting.

And no, we do not worship holy people…we may honor them…but we worship only God alone, and this is during the mass.

Bowing in prayer, is a sign of humility…and there is nothing wrong with that.

If a holy figure is to appear to you…do what would move you to do…and ask that holy figure to utter these words…My Lord Jesus Christ and my God. That way you will know it is from God…👍
 
It was very common to bow before the king in ancient societies. This was not taken to mean a person was worshiping a human. Only in our modern times is it seen that way.
 
We don’t worship Mary, but Catholics seem to have lost an understanding of who Mary really is and that she has very real power and authoritity granted to her by her son Jesus Christ the King.

Mary is a Queen.

Jesus is a king. There is no doubt about this. The whole theme of Matthew’s Gospel is the Kingdom of Jesus - the announcement of the kingdom, descriptions of the kingdom, the establishment of the kingdom, the tearing down of the old kingdom. Jesus spends all of Chapter 13 of Matthews Gospel giving parables about what his kingdom will be like.

When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, “This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world.” Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:14-15)

Jesus is King of kings. That Jesus is a king is undeniable.

And we must always remember that the Old Testament is the story of God preparing his people to accept their Messiah, to accept their King. And when we look at the Kings of the Old Testament, we find a curious fact about who they appointed to be their queens.

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right (1 Kings 2:19)

Bathsheba was King David’s wife but was the Mother of King Solomon. No one in the kingdom was higher than the king, yet Solomon pays homage to his mother and seats her in a throne on his right. This is because Bathsheba is not only Solomon’s mother but she is also the queen.

It makes sense that kings would appoint their mother’s as queen. Wives were often exchanged as part of a military alliance. Each king would give a daughter or a niece to the king with which he was making a military alliance. This was a way for a king to make sure that he had a person in intimate contact with the king with whom he had made an aliiance, someone in his allies inner court. But for a king to make this wife into a queen was to elevate a blood relative of a potential rival to a place of great authority in his kingdom, and this was too great a risk. Kings therefor, did not appoint their wives to be queen but appointed their mother’s to the position of queen instead. That is why we see Solomon bring a throne for and pay homage to his mother Bathsheba. Bathsheba, Solomon’s Mother, is also Solomon’s Queen.

The Hebrew word for queen-mother or literally “Grand lady” is Gebirah. We see references to the Gebirah elswhere in the Old Testament.

Jehu met the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah king of Judah, and he said, “Who are you?” And they answered, "We are the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah, and we came down to visit the royal princes and the sons of the queen mother." (2 Kings 10:13)

This was after King Jeconiah and the queen mother, the court officials, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the artisans and smiths had left Jerusalem. (Jerimiah 29:2)


In fact, the various kings throught he centuries are listed in the Books of Kings and the Books of Chronicals, and with every king, the king’s mother is also listed.

*In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, son of Nebat, Abijam became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah, daughter of Abishalom. (1 Kings 15:1-2)

In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, Abijah became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother was named Micaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. (2 Chronicals 13:1-2)

Uzziah was sixteen years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jecoliah, from Jerusalem. (2 Chronicals 26:3)*

There are dozens of verses like this. God is telling us who the mother of the king was because the mother of the king was a queen.

*A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1) *

We can argue who the woman in Revelation 12 is but the fact that she wears a crown is clear. Only kings and queens wear crowns. The woman is clearly a queen. The woman is described as giving birth to a male child who rules the nations, and this description is consistent with a king and his mother the queen. The fact that the woman’s son in Revelation 12 is “Caught up to God and his throne” leads most Christians to believe that the child is Jesus. The mother can only be Mary, and Mary is Queen.

As Queen of Heaven and earth, Mary has been granted very real power and authority. As a Queen with real authority, we are right to ask her for help, and for protection, and for guidance.

Mary is Queen of Heaven and earth. All the angels in Heaven bow before Mary. All the saints in Heaven bow before Mary. Think about that.

-Tim-
 
The Church’s teachings in writing:
2096 Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.13
2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.
The Church teaches that it’s a grave sin to worship anyone/anything other than God.
 
Catholics only worship God. Catholics do not worship angels or Saints.
If an Angel appears to me, and I KNOW it is an Angel FROM God, I am without a doubt on my knees in the blink of an eye, if not prostrate and trembling. That would not mean I am “worshipping” an Angel, but that I am in complete humility and awe before the power of God.

When you read the stories of the Angelic appearances before people like Abraham, Moses, etc., note that the narratives interchange the Angel (or Angels) with God; in other words, the person sees or knows that the ones appearing before him are Angels (one or more) AND/OR God. So, at a moment like that, I am not taking any chances by trying to distinguish between just an “average” Angel and the Almighty!
 
The Church’s teachings in writing:

The Church teaches that it’s a grave sin to worship anyone/anything other than God.
Yet many of the saints write of worship of Mary and worship of the saints. Yes, we do worship the saints and Mary. I know that this statement will infuriate some and appall others, but it is true, and it is neither incorrect to do so nor is it a sin.

The problem is that we have let non-Catholic Christianity define the word “Worship”, and as Christians, we Catholics have given up ownership of what it means to worship. It is a game of semantics and Catholicism has lost.

Catholic Worship is explained nicely by the Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent.

*There are several degrees of this worship:
  • if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
  • **When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.). **
  • As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent.*

According to this, I worship Mary. I do so in a way that it different fromt he way I worship Jesus, but I do worship. I am not ashamed to say that. I offer Mary the worship of hyperdulia. I offer God the worship of adoration. And in spite of what non-Catholic Christianity tries to tell me, I am savvy enough to know the difference.

I am also not stupid and don’t run around telling my Baptist friends about my wonderful Mary Worship experience. They would not understand and it would cause scandal. Catholics used different terminology when we are together than when we are in mixed company, just as a doctor would use different terminology when speaking with another doctor than he would when speaking to a patient. But the fact is that we have let non-Catholic Christianity steal the word “Worship”, or we have simply given the word away, and that has left our faith weaker.

Scripture says that we are not to worship false gods or idols. Mary is niether a false god nor an idol. Mary is Queen of Heaven and earth. As Queen of Heaven she commands the angels and saints, second only to her Son, Jesus the King. All the angels and saints in heaven bow before Mary. I am not afraid to do the same.

-Tim-
 
The bible specifically Timothy states only Christ is a mediator between man and God. It’s does not say Mary or Saints as a mediator.
 
In Revelation 22:8-9: …I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Luke 19:31 also says something about people not listening if somebody rises from the dead. Does this mean people like Mary do not come back to us?

What do we get of this? Does this mean we should not bow down before a Holy figure if they ever do appear to us?

:confused:
Nope! Worship is for God alone. Does not the Devil tell Jesus he would give Him all the kingdoms of the world,if worships him (Devil). Lucifer wants to be worshiped as God,which is one reason why he is no longer in Heaven.
 
The bible specifically Timothy states only Christ is a mediator between man and God. It’s does not say Mary or Saints as a mediator.
Remember that Christ is fully God and fully man. Christ alone is worthy to mediate salvation between God and man, because Christ alone is both God and man. Christ alone stands in the breach between God and Man which was created by sin, because Christ alone is both God and Man. .

But Mary is full of Grace. Mary is thus the Mediatrix of Grace. Mary dispenses the grace which Christ alone won for mankind on the cross.

There are few Catholic doctrines more traditional than these. As early as the fourth century, Ephram the Syrian wrote of Mary, “After the mediator, the mediatrix of the whole world.”

Pope Pius IX wrote the following in his encyclical Ineffabilis Deus which defined the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854:

All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin – in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints; in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her who, with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world

The Feast of *Mary, Mediatrix of All Grace *is approved and celebrated in Belgium on May 31.

Mary, Mediatrix of Grace will be the fifth Marian Dogma. I hope I live to see the day.

-Tim-
 
Remember that Christ is fully God and fully man. Christ alone is worthy to mediate salvation between God and man, because Christ alone is both God and man. Christ alone stands in the breach between God and Man which was created by sin, because Christ alone is both God and Man. .

But Mary is full of Grace. Mary is thus the Mediatrix of Grace. Mary dispenses the grace which Christ alone won for mankind on the cross.

There are few Catholic doctrines more traditional than these. As early as the fourth century, Ephram the Syrian wrote of Mary, “After the mediator, the mediatrix of the whole world.”

Pope Pius IX wrote the following in his encyclical Ineffabilis Deus which defined the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854:

All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin – in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints; in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her who, with her only-begotten Son, is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world

The Feast of *Mary, Mediatrix of All Grace *is approved and celebrated in Belgium on May 31.

Mary, Mediatrix of Grace will be the fifth Marian Dogma. I hope I live to see the day.

-Tim-
So we should ignore Timothy…sigh.
 
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