Should we respectfully leave the Church

[Jaaanosik]

Contraception in one form or another has been around for thousands of years. The early church fathers opposed contraception, as mentioned in this article from Catholic Answers. Even two of the most prominent Protestant reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin, opposed contraception.

The old contraception was mostly abortive, that’s wrong no argument there.

The rest of the arguments are mostly based on the Onan story. It is interesting one.
There are about 300 words describing the situation, the setup, the command from God what he is supposed to do, …
There are about 7 words how he spilled the semen, the way how he disobeyed God.
Onan was killed because he spilled the semen?

Well, what would happened to Onan if he disobeyed God by NFP?
It’s convenient to overlook what Onan did and blame his death on how he did it.
Really?

It would be interesting to know what all the thinkers would say in current times, with current knowledge, how the reproductive process works, about non-abortive contraception…

There are many families with 3 and more kids. If NFP does not work for them then the Church’s teaching puts them into a very tough situation.
That’s just uncharitable.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

To the OP, please don’t let the appearance of others marriages change your faith. When I first entered an evangelical church everyone is so friendly and helpful and the whole group gets together at socials etc…yet they all talk behind each other’s backs. Appearances can be deceiving,

Regardless of faith; catholic, pagan, Protestant, atheist, mixed marriages etc…all have their stories of great love and long lasting, all have their stories of divorce and sadness.

A friend of mine who is catholic just found out his wife (also catholic) has been having an affair and has moved out the home. I know Protestants who have divorced also. I also know a few (it seems rare these days) long lasting happy marriages of ALL faiths.

 

[marywarfield]

The old contraception was mostly abortive, that’s wrong no argument there.

The rest of the arguments are mostly based on the Onan story. It is interesting one.
There are about 300 words describing the situation, the setup, the command from God what he is supposed to do, …
There are about 7 words how he spilled the semen, the way how he disobeyed God.
Onan was killed because he spilled the semen?

Well, what would happened to Onan if he disobeyed God by NFP?
It’s convenient to overlook what Onan did and blame his death on how he did it.
Really?

It would be interesting to know what all the thinkers would say in current times, with current knowledge, how the reproductive process works, about non-abortive contraception…

There are many families with 3 and more kids. If NFP does not work for them then the Church’s teaching puts them into a very tough situation.
That’s just uncharitable.

Abstinence?

You know this thread is fascinating. Just fascinating.
You know I love my husband and he loves me.
We’ve been married 30 years this August. Sometimes
we abstained and sometimes we didn’t. Simply
because the point of our marriage was not sex. Sex
was only a part of it.

But what I’m reading through these past eleven pages is:
In order to keep on having sex and not get pregnant
Catholics will leave the Church, condemn the Church,
and join happy joyful birth control using Protestants.
Why? Because they don’t believe God would ask
them to suffer anything as SEVERE as no sex for
any length of time.
Or another trend is to state couples with health problems
should either NFP or abstain to avoid bringing kids
into the world who might suffer.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?
None of this is Catholicism. None of it.
We proclaim Christ CRUCIFIED- not Christ
out having a party, doing whatever he wants to do.
The Church proclaims SELF DENIAL. If Catholics
can’t even abstain from sex, obviously they wouldn’t
be able to handle being nailed to a cross without
screaming okay okay I agree to be Baptist, Lutheran
anything but a Catholic with senile, celibate theologians
just UN nail me please and I will renounce my faith.

I’m sorry it sounds like more and more Catholics
don’t understand the meaning of: Christ crucified.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Your question spoke of the well-informed conscience. I answered that (new) information (from a credible source- the Church) might influence one’s conscience. I guess you’re really asking now - should we believe the Church if what’s put before us is not fully understood by us, or not proven. **This could be applied to many parts of the Faith. ** The Immaculate Conception, Resurrection, the Real Presence, the Forgiveness of Sins, the evils of Abortion and so on. Why do Catholics believe these things?

Yes, and there are many people who do not believe.
The Faith is a gift from God. Some people never received it, for whatever reason.
Everybody is different. That’s beautiful.
Somebody is OK when is told it’s like that, someone else needs to understand the logic behind the things.

 

[MacQ]

Meow… Sorry that I was tired and accidently wrote the wrong word. I’ll let my clients know that I am no longer fit to work with scientific material anymore. I’ll include you in my PhD credits, though.

Anyway, I am aware that genetic issues can manifest differently. For example, the MTFHR gene can cause a wide variety of complications, from the mild to the severe. At its most severe it can cause neural tube defects, miscarriages and heart disease. Yet it may only manifest as a slightly lowered immune system in some people. So yes, I know genetic issues can vary wildy.

Wrestling control of outcomes in this case would involve aborting children or using the BCP. And I clearly never said such things. I am simply saying that some couples wish to use NFP to avoid for these sorts of reasons. Again, you strike me as someone who probably has never had any real experience with ill health (as in chronic conditions that wipe out years of your life). You are implying that wanting to avoid your child having chronic health issues would somehow make you a bad person or someone who is playing God? IMO, God would make his decisions known if a couple conceived despite using NFP.

My post was intended to clarify and inform (since I don’t know you, and the information you provided sounded like you got interested and went to some websites, and that was the basis of your information). It certainly didn’t sound like someone who deals with ‘scientific material’ confused.

**I do understand that it may have seemed condescending, however, and for that I apologize. MEOW CULPA.
**

I certainly did not intend to imply that trying to avoid a pregnancy makes anyone a bad person. I was pointing out the flaws of using genetics to try to predict suffering (and why it is flawed). And it does seem to me that engaging in that pretty much does border on trying to outsmart God.

Enuff said by me…you can have the last word, but I’m over and out, as it’s been aptly pointed out this has strayed from the topic.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Abstinence?

You know this thread is fascinating. Just fascinating.
You know I love my husband and he loves me.
We’ve been married 30 years this August. Sometimes
we abstained and sometimes we didn’t. Simply
because the point of our marriage was not sex. Sex
was only a part of it.

But what I’m reading through these past eleven pages is:
In order to keep on having sex and not get pregnant
Catholics will leave the Church, condemn the Church,
and join happy joyful birth control using Protestants.
Why? Because they don’t believe God would ask
them to suffer anything as SEVERE as no sex for
any length of time.
Or another trend is to state couples with health problems
should either NFP or abstain to avoid bringing kids
into the world who might suffer.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?
None of this is Catholicism. None of it.
We proclaim Christ CRUCIFIED- not Christ
out having a party, doing whatever he wants to do.
The Church proclaims SELF DENIAL. If Catholics
can’t even abstain from sex, obviously they wouldn’t
be able to handle being nailed to a cross without
screaming okay okay I agree to be Baptist, Lutheran
anything but a Catholic with senile, celibate theologians
just UN nail me please and I will renounce my faith.

I’m sorry it sounds like more and more Catholics
don’t understand the meaning of: Christ crucified.

I must admit I find your post a little harsh and can see why people who think and speak like you cause many others to leave the church. After all a tree is judged by the fruit it bears right? You are right, the Catholic Church does teach abstinence, no contraception etc etc… I don’t necessarily agree with it completely hence I’m not catholic at the moment, however it’s not WHAT you have stated that’s the problem it’s HOW It’s the pompous I can manage it, so why can’t you speech! The holier than though mantra, let’s “laugh or cry” at other peoples suffering and struggling. Yes Jesus was crucified, ONLY HE lived a sinless life, we are sinful people who quite frankly don’t deserve the glory he offers us, that what makes it so beAutiful, that He would give His life for all of us lot! No one is perfect…not even you!

Yes people who go against catholic teaching on contraception (according to you guys) will be judged. However, the people who will also be judged are those who think they are perfect! What’s the passage where Jesus turns after people say “lord, lord we have done x y and z” and says “go from me for a do not know you”.

You carry on laughing at other people struggling to follow the rules, but don’t think you are safe from judgement.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Abstinence?

You know this thread is fascinating. Just fascinating.
You know I love my husband and he loves me.
We’ve been married 30 years this August. Sometimes
we abstained and sometimes we didn’t. Simply
because the point of our marriage was not sex. Sex
was only a part of it.

But what I’m reading through these past eleven pages is:
In order to keep on having sex and not get pregnant
Catholics will leave the Church, condemn the Church,
and join happy joyful birth control using Protestants.
Why? Because they don’t believe God would ask
them to suffer anything as SEVERE as no sex for
any length of time.
Or another trend is to state couples with health problems
should either NFP or abstain to avoid bringing kids
into the world who might suffer.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry?
None of this is Catholicism. None of it.
We proclaim Christ CRUCIFIED- not Christ
out having a party, doing whatever he wants to do.
The Church proclaims SELF DENIAL. If Catholics
can’t even abstain from sex, obviously they wouldn’t
be able to handle being nailed to a cross without
screaming okay okay I agree to be Baptist, Lutheran
anything but a Catholic with senile, celibate theologians
just UN nail me please and I will renounce my faith.

I’m sorry it sounds like more and more Catholics
don’t understand the meaning of: Christ crucified.

When a young married couple goes to bed and it’s time for abstinence then they are forbidden to express their love for each other because ‘too much kissing or touching’ might lead to something that is not in line with the Church’s teaching.
That’s a torture.
People have enough crosses in their lives and it’s not enough for the Church so they decided to add another one. Uncharitable.

 

[marywarfield]

I must admit I find your post a little harsh and can see why people who think and speak like you cause many others to leave the church. After all a tree is judged by the fruit it bears right? You are right, the Catholic Church does teach abstinence, no contraception etc etc… I don’t necessarily agree with it completely hence I’m not catholic at the moment, however it’s not WHAT you have stated that’s the problem it’s HOW It’s the pompous I can manage it, so why can’t you speech! The holier than though mantra, let’s “laugh or cry” at other peoples suffering and struggling. Yes Jesus was crucified, ONLY HE lived a sinless life, we are sinful people who quite frankly don’t deserve the glory he offers us, that what makes it so beAutiful, that He would give His life for all of us lot! No one is perfect…not even you!

Yes people who go against catholic teaching on contraception (according to you guys) will be judged. However, the people who will also be judged are those who think they are perfect! What’s the passage where Jesus turns after people say “lord, lord we have done x y and z” and says “go from me for a do not know you”.

You carry on laughing at other people struggling to follow the rules, but don’t think you are safe from judgement.

Like I said: we preach Christ CRUCIFIED.
That includes not allowing yourself to go into fits
when you misunderstand a post.
Sorry- truth hurts but it is not pompous.
I judged no one. I judged an obvious conflict between
faith views. One you can have it all without suffering
anything or you are expected after Confirmation
to pick up your cross and carry it.
I personally think its pitiful and as you so glibly skipped
over said I don’t know whether to laugh or CRY over
this.
Is this where Catholicism is today? If we have to
abstain from sex for a period of time we are outta
here? And every single person on this thread
who has reiterated actual Church teaching to anyone
has been accused if being: arrogant, judgmental, pompous,
uncharitable, cruel, unfeeling, a liar, or a hypocrite.

Like I said earlier this is all completely dishonest.
The honest approach all Catholics here could understand
is:" hey this cross of no sex is too heavy for me. I don’t
refute Church teaching, I don’t accuse the Church of
being filled with celibate old men forcing old fashioned ideas
down our throats. I don’t understand why the Church says this
and I just can’t suffer this cross. I’m leaving the garden
of agony because I’m a weak human being."

Saying one is leaving cause they can’t stand the
agony of abstinence is an honest approach.

Saying one is leaving because they want birth control
and everyone who disagrees is a raving judgmental jerk
is dishonest, self justifying.

And pathetic. If people want to leave they could
have the decency as adults to take the responsibility
on themselves instead of claiming they are being forced out.
That’s absurd.

 

[marywarfield]

When a young married couple goes to bed and it’s time for abstinence then they are forbidden to express their love for each other because ‘too much kissing or touching’ might lead to something that is not in line with the Church’s teaching.
That’s a torture.
People have enough crosses in their lives and it’s not enough for the Church so they decided to add another one. Uncharitable.

This is a trivialization of the marriage covenant, you
know that? A complete trivialization.
Maybe you need to sit back and decide: are you
and your spouse on a faith journey together?
Are you on a road to a particular destination? Is reaching
that destination the POINT of your marriage?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Like I said: we preach Christ CRUCIFIED.
That includes not allowing yourself to go into fits
when you misunderstand a post.
Sorry- truth hurts but it is not pompous.
I judged no one. I judged an obvious conflict between
faith views. One you can have it all without suffering
anything or you are expected after Confirmation
to pick up your cross and carry it.
I personally think its pitiful and as you so glibly skipped
over said I don’t know whether to laugh or CRY over
this.
Is this where Catholicism is today? If we have to
abstain from sex for a period of time we are outta
here? And every single person on this thread
who has reiterated actual Church teaching to anyone
has been accused if being: arrogant, judgmental, pompous,
uncharitable, cruel, unfeeling, a liar, or a hypocrite.

Like I said earlier this is all completely dishonest.
The honest approach all Catholics here could understand
is:" hey this cross of no sex is too heavy for me. I don’t
refute Church teaching, I don’t accuse the Church of
being filled with celibate old men forcing old fashioned ideas
down our throats. I don’t understand why the Church says this
and I just can’t suffer this cross. I’m leaving the garden
of agony because I’m a weak human being."

Saying one is leaving cause they can’t stand the
agony of abstinence is an honest approach.

Saying one is leaving because they want birth control
and everyone who disagrees is a raving judgmental jerk
is dishonest, self justifying.

And pathetic. If people want to leave they could
have the decency as adults to take the responsibility
on themselves instead of claiming they are being forced out.
That’s absurd.

Where did I go into fits?

You say you don’t judge, but your posts say otherwise. Truth (ie what the church teaches) isn’t pompous, the way you present it…is

“I’ve been married for 30years, I’ve abstained, why can’t you just carry your cross instead of being pathetic and leaving the church”

How about saying " I know it’s tough, I’ve been there, I’ve struggled, but you know what Jesus died for us. Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me"

See the difference?

 

[Jaaanosik]

This is a trivialization of the marriage covenant, you
know that? A complete trivialization.
Maybe you need to sit back and decide: are you
and your spouse on a faith journey together?
Are you on a road to a particular destination? Is reaching
that destination the POINT of your marriage?

Well, then let’s not make it trivial.
Please, explain to me the requirement of the AND between the unitive and procreative aspects of the marital act for every single one of them based on the Natural Law.

 

[The_Bucket]

You say you don’t judge, but your posts say otherwise. Truth (ie what the church teaches) isn’t pompous, the way you present it…is

“I’ve been married for 30years, I’ve abstained, why can’t you just carry your cross instead of being pathetic and leaving the church”

How about saying " I know it’s tough, I’ve been there, I’ve struggled, but you know what Jesus died for us. Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me"

See the difference?

It might not be a matter of judgment, but of tone. I like to think the best of people until I’m proven wrong. In this case I think there’s plenty of room to assume that marywarfield is just trying to present the truth and push for honesty and really isn’t judging anyone… while you have made a fine case for “best practices” when it comes to how to get that message across. It’s very helpful given your non-Catholic background.

If we want to evangelize to the world, we have to make sure we are speaking a language that starts with love and then moves into the teaching. Christ said “neither do I condemn you” BEFORE he said “go and sin no more.”

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I must admit I find your post a little harsh and can see why people who think and speak like you cause many others to leave the church. After all a tree is judged by the fruit it bears right? You are right, the Catholic Church does teach abstinence, no contraception etc etc… I don’t necessarily agree with it completely hence I’m not catholic at the moment, however it’s not WHAT you have stated that’s the problem it’s HOW It’s the pompous I can manage it, so why can’t you speech! The holier than though mantra, let’s “laugh or cry” at other peoples suffering and struggling. Yes Jesus was crucified, ONLY HE lived a sinless life, we are sinful people who quite frankly don’t deserve the glory he offers us, that what makes it so beAutiful, that He would give His life for all of us lot! No one is perfect…not even you!

Yes people who go against catholic teaching on contraception (according to you guys) will be judged. However, the people who will also be judged are those who think they are perfect! What’s the passage where Jesus turns after people say “lord, lord we have done x y and z” and says “go from me for a do not know you”.

You carry on laughing at other people struggling to follow the rules, but don’t think you are safe from judgement.

No one is laughing. Sin and damnation are not laughing matters. however I wish to address your post in general.

1. We Catholics do not believe that only Jesus did not sin. Mary did not have Original Sin and did not commit Actual Sin. Not only that but tradition holds that there were others who did not sin as well. The difference is that they had Original Sin.
2. There is a huge difference between Mortal and Venial Sin. We are ALL called to be free from Mortal Sin. Sometimes we fall. The Church has a remedy for that through the sacrament of Reconciliation in which Jesus, who died for our Sins" Forgives us. But we are called to live a life of Holiness. And if one dies in unrepented Mortal Sin. Hell is the only destination.
3. The mantra of hurting others feelings with the Truth is demolished in Bible. Jesus spoke the Truth and in John Chapter 6 his followers said that it was a hard teaching and walked away. Only the Apostles remained. Jesus did not say “wait wait, I am sorry your feel this way, come back, I did not mean what I said.” The Church has a duty to follow the Truth even if others may not “feel” good about it. Someone always has a reason to not follow the Church. Especially when the teaching is hard.
4. Jesus told the woman to go forth and sin no more. What kind of God would ask someone to do the impossible. What kind of God would forgive someone and cleanse their soul but then ask them to do something that is impossible so will lead to their damnation.

Answer: Not our God. If he asks for sinlessness that is what we owe Him. If we fail, in His Mercy he will forgive us time and time again. But we must conform our wills to His. The concept of protestant sin and that “we are all sinners” is not at all Catholic. I was born a sinner. I was baptized to remove the sin. I commited sins, and I have been forgiven by Jesus for them. When I am in a state of Grace. And do not have the inclination to sin, I am indeed sinless.

 

[The_Bucket]

Well, then let’s not make it trivial.
Please, explain to me the requirement of the AND between the unitive and procreative aspects of the marital act for every single one of them based on the Natural Law.

So you’re saying that there’s an OR built in? Or are you saying that “each and every act” need not apply?

If the latter, why does Christ Himself have to be present each and every time when a priest says some magic words over some bread and wine? Why not just most of the time? Or even some of the time? Why am I required to be charitable in all that I do lest I sin? Why not just some of the time? Why do I have to put God’s will before my own all of the time lest I sin? Why not just some of the time?

Why can’t I hold onto anger sometimes? Why can’t I be envious of my neighbor sometimes?

 

[marywarfield]

When a young married couple goes to bed and it’s time for abstinence then they are forbidden to express their love for each other because ‘too much kissing or touching’ might lead to something that is not in line with the Church’s teaching.
That’s a torture.
People have enough crosses in their lives and it’s not enough for the Church so they decided to add another one. Uncharitable.

Where did I go into fits?

You say you don’t judge, but your posts say otherwise. Truth (ie what the church teaches) isn’t pompous, the way you present it…is

“I’ve been married for 30years, I’ve abstained, why can’t you just carry your cross instead of being pathetic and leaving the church”

How about saying " I know it’s tough, I’ve been there, I’ve struggled, but you know what Jesus died for us. Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me"

See the difference?

Well I might have seen the difference if you quoted
me accurately but since you paraphrased me to suit
your purposes- no

 

[The_Bucket]

Answer: Not our God. If he asks for sinlessness that is what we owe Him. If we fail, in His Mercy he will forgive us time and time again. But we must conform our wills to His. The concept of protestant sin and that “we are all sinners” is not at all Catholic. I was born a sinner. I was baptized to remove the sin. I commited sins, and I have been forgiven by Jesus for them. When I am in a state of Grace. And do not have the inclination to sin, I am indeed sinless.

Quite right. When I personally as a Catholic say “I too am a sinner,” I mean that literally “I have committed sins.” But I am actually not a sinner anymore when I go to confession and have the slate wiped clean. Chances are I will become a sinner again when I drive out of the parking lot, but for those moments, no I am not “a sinner.”

 

[PaulGH]

The old contraception was mostly abortive, that’s wrong no argument there.

Abortion and contraception are not the same thing. If I had meant to point out that abortion was used in ancient times (which it was), that is what I would have said. There is a long history of non-abortive contraception use, going back hundreds and even thousands of years. Wikipedia, while not always reliable, has some details here, with references that you can check if you wish:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control

There are many families with 3 and more kids. If NFP does not work for them then the Church’s teaching puts them into a very tough situation.
That’s just uncharitable.

A man whose wife is in a coma must abstain for as long as she is in the coma, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

A woman whose husband is on a long military deployment must abstain for the entire time that he is away, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

An unmarried man or woman must abstain for as long as he or she remains unmarried, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

A man or woman whose spouse refuses to be intimate must abstain for as long as the spouse continues to refuse, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

Do you reject the church’s teaching in these tough situations? Is the church being uncharitable in these tough situations?

 

[Jaaanosik]

So you’re saying that there’s an OR built in? Or are you saying that “each and every act” need not apply?

If the latter, why does Christ Himself have to be present each and every time when a priest says some magic words over some bread and wine? Why not just most of the time? Or even some of the time? Why am I required to be charitable in all that I do lest I sin? Why not just some of the time? Why do I have to put God’s will before my own all of the time lest I sin? Why not just some of the time?

Why can’t I hold onto anger sometimes? Why can’t I be envious of my neighbor sometimes?

Is this the Natural Law?
It appears you are talking about about the Revealed Law.

 

[The_Bucket]

A man whose wife is in a coma must abstain for as long as she is in the coma, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

A woman whose husband is on a long military deployment must abstain for the entire time that he is away, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

An unmarried man or woman must abstain for as long as he or she remains unmarried, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

A man or woman whose spouse refuses to be intimate must abstain for as long as the spouse continues to refuse, according to church teaching, even though that is a very tough situation.

Do you reject the church’s teaching in these tough situations? Is the church being uncharitable in these tough situations?

Clearly it’s the Church that sucks, not life.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

No one is laughing. Sin and damnation are not laughing matters. however I wish to address your post in general.

1. We Catholics do not believe that only Jesus did not sin. Mary did not have Original Sin and did not commit Actual Sin. Not only that but tradition holds that there were others who did not sin as well. The difference is that they had Original Sin.
2. There is a huge difference between Mortal and Venial Sin. We are ALL called to be free from Mortal Sin. Sometimes we fall. The Church has a remedy for that through the sacrament of Reconciliation in which Jesus, who died for our Sins" Forgives us. But we are called to live a life of Holiness. And if one dies in unrepented Mortal Sin. Hell is the only destination.
3. The mantra of hurting others feelings with the Truth is demolished in Bible. Jesus spoke the Truth and in John Chapter 6 his followers said that it was a hard teaching and walked away. Only the Apostles remained. Jesus did not say “wait wait, I am sorry your feel this way, come back, I did not mean what I said.” The Church has a duty to follow the Truth even if others may not “feel” good about it. Someone always has a reason to not follow the Church. Especially when the teaching is hard.
4. Jesus told the woman to go forth and sin no more. What kind of God would ask someone to do the impossible. What kind of God would forgive someone and cleanse their soul but then ask them to do something that is impossible so will lead to their damnation.

Answer: Not our God. If he asks for sinlessness that is what we owe Him. If we fail, in His Mercy he will forgive us time and time again. But we must conform our wills to His. The concept of protestant sin and that “we are all sinners” is not at all Catholic. I was born a sinner. I was baptized to remove the sin. I commited sins, and I have been forgiven by Jesus for them. When I am in a state of Grace. And do not have the inclination to sin, I am indeed sinless.

Actually the poster said she didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.

I was actually thinking about your first point when I wrote it, but my point was WE are sinful, all of us have sinned, otherwise why would the church have confession.

Again, it’s not about the truth hurting, the truth being told is fine…the way in which it is said makes a whole difference especially when none of you are Jesus.

There are some catholics who can justify being mean, having a bad tone…telling the truth is one thing, yeah some truth does hurt especially when it’s hard to follow but being mean, having a bad tone or holier than though attitude (ie I can do it so why can’t you) is never acceptable.

Again, the poster could have said “you know what, it is hard, we all struggle, but unfortunately this is the churches teaching on the matter” followed by a reference to church teaching. If they don’t agree, they could help them to understand the teaching. Maybe there is something they hadn’t considered which could be helpful to them. What is not right is “I can do it, suck it up , stop being pathetic and get on with it”

None of you are Jesus, none of you are sinless.