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Truth_Faith13
Guest
Now you are just being difficult, I will be praying for you and that your heart softens and you know how to treat people…
Goodbye
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Goodbye
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PaulGH
Guest
Re-reading my earlier posts on this thread, I do want to add one piece of additional advice for the OP:
Since you have a very serious reason to avoid pregnancy, I would recommend that you make sure that you are very well trained in whatever method of NFP that you plan to use (if you choose NFP), and that you use it conservatively (meaning adding extra day(s) of abstinence at the beginning and end of the abstinence period). You may want to see a doctor who teaches the Creighton Model of NFP, since then you could use NFP under the advice of a medical professional. You can find a doctor at fertilitycare.org/. Look under “Find a Medical Consultant.”
Since you have a very serious reason to avoid pregnancy, I would recommend that you make sure that you are very well trained in whatever method of NFP that you plan to use (if you choose NFP), and that you use it conservatively (meaning adding extra day(s) of abstinence at the beginning and end of the abstinence period). You may want to see a doctor who teaches the Creighton Model of NFP, since then you could use NFP under the advice of a medical professional. You can find a doctor at fertilitycare.org/. Look under “Find a Medical Consultant.”
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
I don’t completely agree with you here, but this isn’t the place to discuss the difference we have about sin.
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
This I agree with more…Jesus forgives our sins (or in your case confession), but the chances of any of us staying in that state for long is slim…a cross thought, road rage, etc etc.in that sense none of us can say we are sinless.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I think the other poster was not mean.
If you disagree I think you should point out where.
As for the sin. I ask you again. What kind of God do you worship that asks the impossible of you?
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
I never said God does ask the impossible, that has nothing to do with what I am saying.
My views of sin and whether or not we are sinless etc is a different topic hence I am not responding.
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LongingSoul
Guest
Sex is the means by which the species self perpetuates. In human beings there is a strong natural sense of family units in providing the best environment to nurture and educate the begotten offspring. In service to the unity of family, sex is also unitive. Parental unity is the key to family unity.
Within the creative communion of a man and woman, human beings are naturally drawn to the supernatural creator who has given them life and the great gift of creativity. As far back as anthropology takes us, we are aware of fertility as the highest good of man. People have worshipped gods of fertility, celebrated fertility rituals and made totems of fertility. It is a capacity within a human being that amazes and stretches him with immense gratitude towards his supernatural maker. Man has always said a loving ‘yes’ to his supernatural parent, with both body and mind, as a natural manifestation of his relationship with Him.
The purposes of sexual intercourse are the procreative and the unitive. I may be skipping ahead, but I think you are thinking that ‘unitive’ means pleasure. You are saying why can’t sex be for pleasure alone without including the procreative dimension every time. Aquinas says “for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature.”… and in that same vein the unitive presupposes the procreative.
Think of it this way. The main purpose of eating is food intake for nutrition but there is the pleasurable aspect of chewing and tasting that serves that primary purpose. Would you say then why should the food intake always be necessary to eating? Could we not do the chewing and tasting on its own for the pleasure of it and then spit the food out?
Nature says no to that on a number of levels and that ‘no’ to purposeless pleasure exists inside every person naturally. Human beings view such behaviour as a mental disorder and we don’t tolerate it in a person or in the culture.
It is the same with sexual intercourse. If we make the second purpose… the unitive, only about the pleasure detached from the primary purpose, we are violating our basic nature and messing with a primal equilibrium of the body and the spiritual equilibrium of the soul.
PaulGH has addressed this point for you. The contraceptive mentality has been a scourge probably since the dawn of time. It goes against mans natural esteem of his fertility as one of the highest natural and supernatural goods of life.
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marywarfield
Guest
My hert is nice and soft thank you. It could always
use more though.
I do know how to treat people actually.
We are Catholics discussing a Catholic teaching.
Part of the reason you are objecting to my statements
is we are coming at Christ from two sides of
the spectrum.
I repeat: CATHOLICS proclaim Christ CRUCIFIED
until He comes again.
You and the other Protestants on the thread proclaim
Christ RISEN.
Huge huge difference something most in the
ecumenical movement would like to forget.
Catholics or at least well catechized Catholics are
suspicious of those who claim one can have their
cake and eat it too. We expect suffering and we expect
to engage in self denial. Catholics literally
ARE supposed to follow hard and or inconvenient
teachings. And other Catholics SHOULD be pointing
out the obvious flaws in each other’s views.
The Jesus who simply “understands how hard”
it is for us, the Jesus who justifies sin and says
hey don’t worry, you don’t need to be unhappy,
deny yourself anything, cause I did it all for you so
run off and have a good time- Ive justified your actions-
that is not the
Catholic Jesus. Ours is not a once saved always
saved Jesus. Our Jesus does not lack justice.
Yes He is merciful. But He is also just. He is not
JUST mercy. And yes- He has definate expectations of
every Catholic ever slapped in the face by their
Bishop at Confirmation.
Now I understand that in Vatican II that practice
stopped in some parishes. But it still occurs
in INTENTION. Never stopped.
If one cannot handle humiliation, self deprivation,
fine. Say so. But don’t blame the Catholics such as
Hoosier Daddy, or me, or Bucket who say to you
“been there, done that, tried this, gave up that, it
can and should be done and this is what we found out
in our ten year twenty year thirty year forty years of
Catholic living”.
For a Catholic with truthful intentions to hear
that- it’s strengthening and encouraging.
For a Catholic however who is trying to rationalize
his sin or for a Protestant who proclaims only
a Risen Christ or empty Cross?
It sounds mean, heartless, and something Jesus
would never do.
But again we are Catholics. We don’t ask just what
would Jesus do? We also ask what would Mary do?
What would St. Joseph do?
You know St Joseph? That celibate old man who
ABSTAINED from sex with his wife cause she
was a perpetual virgin giving birth to the Son of
God who didn’t have time for sex either?
From a Protestant point of view wow what a family
of totally sexually repressed odd balls!!!
And that is why so many Protestant theologies claim
Jesus had tons of brothers and sisters, or Jesus was
married on the sly.
But Catholics don’t see it that way.
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shelby_sun
Guest
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marywarfield
Guest
Clearly it’s the Church that sucks, not life.
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shelby_sun
Guest
Do you read your post before posting. You seem to get off on calling people liar when you have no way to prove anything. Are you a lawyer? Arrogance spews from every word you write, maybe it is time for you to get honest.
I never said I could not handle not having sex, I chose not to go without it. Don’t sit here and try to convince us that you would be the first one with your hand up if God asked for volunteers to die on the cross just in the way Christ did, whippings and all. Serious doubt that!
Let me ask you this. If you husband, that you love so, much flat lined in the hospital, would you have the doctor uses paddles to save him, give him adrenaline, CPR, or merely go with God’s plan and let him die as God intended. Two thousand years ago he would have died. Could you simple not go with God’s plan and forget extra means to keep him alive rather than letting go live with God, since your faithful Catholics. Is that a cross your willing to bare or would you go with the new things God has shown us in over the last two hundred years to save life, even if they our keeping them from God.
Yes in one issue we are preventing a life, in the situation a brought up you would be playing God and keeping your husband from going to be with His maker because you don’t want to live without him. I have no idea what the Church’s teaching is but, if it is to use artificial means to save his life then I find that also playing God, to prevent someones suffering.
FYI, I have a DNR for exactly that reason. I will not question when God feels like I should die. I am pretty sure what you will do with that question, but I threw it out there anyway. Maybe someday we can all come around and be as perfect a Catholic as you seem to tell us you are. We can only hope. Until than I guess you are just going to see me as a weak liar as a good Catholic would, right.
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marywarfield
Guest
Certainly. Catholic marriage is between THREE
persons, not just two.
Therefore the procreative AND unitive factors must
exist for all THREE.
When the marriage consists of only two persons
engaged ONLY in giving pleasure to each other
to the exclusion of the THIRD PERSON, it is
in that action not truly Catholic in its covenant.
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marywarfield
Guest
I dont remember calling you a liar. Lol.
I don’t remember saying I was a good or perfect
Catholic.
I DO remember trying to give the benefit
of being a Catholic who already went through ALL
these permutations: not fair, possibly needing to leave
Church is unreasonable and Catholics are mean.
How do you think I recognize so well what’s
happening here?
I don’t think telling you or the other posters that
after going through all the questions, rationalizations,
self justifications, denials of facts, I arrived at the
conclusion that the fault, that most grievous fault,
was all mine and mine alone is: pompous, arrogant
judgemental and blah blah blah.
Now as far as end of life issues and DNRs go I’m at
an age where I have had to make that decision
already for myself, my husband, and four other
close family members.
I choose not to discuss it with you since you seem
to believe you can receive no benefit from any of
my experiences and will use my experiences to
trash my statements and intentions even more.
What I DO believe is you have not yet exercised
one single post on the thread yet that could even
begin to be called charitable. Not yet.
When you decide to be charitable let me know.
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shelby_sun
Guest
The other poster was not mean, but she wasn’t charitable or right to manipulate that people are lying with our post. You obliviously agree with her which is great, but do not let that taint how she writes her post.
From what I gather she is trying to guilt us into see things her way and she is get her way so she is manipulating things more and more.
This post didn’t throw a fit in the least, she didn’t, she didn’t rant, she was not ugly, and how Mary has portrayed her and others if very unfair and not Christ like. She simply wants to make us out as weak and not loving God enough to suffer. She has not idea what we have suffered in out lives to this point, NO idea.
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The_Bucket
Guest
And here is where I take issue. I think it would be far more respectable/defensible/excusable to say: “This teaching is hard. I could not bear it.” You instead say, “I know what the teaching is, and I could do it, but I won’t.” How is that better? Because that makes you strong instead of weak?
Let’s bring up other teachings of the Church that are also difficult. For instance, I frequently come across people who are homeless or purport to be homeless, asking for money. Now as a Christian, I shouldn’t just try to do something for the poor. I am ordered to do something for the poor. It is not a suggestion. Caring for the poor is a central mission for Christians. Failing to help the poor is a sin of omission.
And yet what do I do? I pass on by, either out of fear or disgust. I fear the consequences of interacting with someone who is homeless as my personal safety might (but probably not) be in jeopardy. I tell myself that these people don’t deserve my help because they are not availing themselves of shelters or charities or government programs.
Even if I don’t have money on me or think that a person is drunk and my giving them money would hurt them… I still should respond to their pleas. I should treat them humanely and like a Christian. I should say something like “I don’t have any money, but I will pray for you.” And yet I do not.
Caring for the poor, actually caring for them as opposed to paying lip service and saying “someone should do something” is hard.
And yet we are called to do just that. To die to our own desires, to die to our own will and replace it with the will of God. I’ll raise my hand and be the first to say “I do not want to do that. That is hard.”
There’s been plenty of uncharitable tone here, but also some, well, hard truths. Christ’s yoke is easy and His burden is light… but only if our will is the same as His. And you know what? My will isn’t His! I don’t want to do what He wants! I can barely ask Him to make me want what He wants. It’s a lifetime process to be sure.
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LongingSoul
Guest
Your vitriol is off putting, way out of proportion and there’s no excuse for it.
The fact is that contraception is ungodly and unnatural. The goal is to eliminate the mentality from the world altogether and return to respecting our fertility for the the sake of humanity. Many people use it out of modern ignorance and culpability may be reduced. Many people reject the Church teaching and conform to a modern individualistic concept of man and his purpose. But the worst of all are those who sneak it through a loophole in Catholic teaching thinking that they put themselves beyond Gods judgement. They not only dice with their own salvation but contribute to the culture of death and the legacy left for the next generation.
That is a reality that needs addressing and it comes up in a thread question like this as a priority. It does not mean that either the OP or you have done this (although the OP has admitted to not believing in that contraception is evil)… so I don’t know why, unless you are struggling with conscience, you would take everything onto yourself personally to justify your inordinate vitriol. That is not an invite to discuss either me or you. It is just something very noticable about your strange violent posts.
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mommamaree
Guest
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Jaaanosik
Guest
If I understand it correctly then in my example a few pages ago you would say that listening to music for one’s pleasure is a mental disorder.
Is that the Natural Law?
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marywarfield
Guest
Hahaha! You are not a victim here really.
I believe I and the others have exercised
extraordinary charity in listening to you and the OP
and the other poster state variously:
Our Church is anachronistic in it’s teaching, put
forth by senile celibate old men. Is that statement
a sign of good intention on the part of the OP?
Calling everyone who says the Church is correct in its
teachings and our experiences have borne that out
is responded to with threats, name calling, and insults
by you or the others?
Accusations that you have been called named or
treated unkindly are simply false.
How is any of this a sign of reasonable thinking on
your part? You have now claimed three people called
you a liar. Fact: no one called you a liar. Not once.
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shelby_sun
Guest
No you didn’t come out and call me a liar, you didn’t call me week directly, you used your manipulative style writing style so you would not be called out by abusing forum rules. Yes you know exactly what is going on here.
As seem to know nothing about being charitable yourself, so we are done. I am sure if you were more a Christ like person I might I something to learn, but you simply are not.
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