Should we respectfully leave the Church

[marywarfield]

The Natural Law is based on the human nature - capability to reason.
How a hundred people can come to the same conclusion about something - what’s moral or what is not moral?
The explanation is quite simple. The Natural Law - the reasoning process is driven by the attributes/properties/aspects/goals of a studied object. The reasoning process has to be strictly logical so all the people can come to an agreement that’s how it is.
The basic foundation of the reasoning process is that if an object is being used for a goal that it was designed for then it’s good.
If an object is being used for goals that it was not designed for then it’s not good, it’s a sin.

I am not talking about “laws of nature”. Trust me, I know what I am talking about.

Really? Really? While your fundamentalist type argument is probably
the best I’ve heard against gay marriage and the
adoption of children by gays it fails at least in your
example of inanimate objects like your knife example.
so if I use a flathead screwdriver instead of a Philips
and it breaks that’s a sin?

 

[marywarfield]

How is using birth control or even NFP to limit the number of children a family has going to prevent Catholic Churches from closing down in record numbers? It would seem to me that Catholics having fewer kids would result in closing Churches and if we had more kids on average we would need more churches.

Extending Shelby’s argument further we might
as well close the doors right now or even yesterday.
If we run the Church based on a nice democratic
system of majority vote and rule?
Well we must allow abortion, gay marriage, adultery,
murder, etc etc.
This is the problem in trying to cater Christianity
to the Populist vote.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Trust me, I know what I am talking about.

Probably the worst logical argument I have ever heard. But I seem to hear it often.

 

[bitterhope]

I’m not sure it means churches closing… But there are lots of people like me who feel the lifestyle expectations are simply untenable. I have to say that ever since this issue became a problem in my life, it’s been harder and harder to want to go to Mass. I just feel unwelcome and uncomfortable there. I don’t feel guilty, I feel sad and disappointed and faithless. I have never in my life been closer to finding another way to worship the Lord.

People and institutions that are very “black and white” tend to be unpopular and unlikeable. As you know, the number of Catholics who fully practice their faith is fairly low, and yet, many sectors of the Protestant movement are exploding. We can chalk it up to lazy, selfish people wanting an “easier road”, but at some point we have to accept that a lot of people are using their reason to say “Even after listening to the convoluted explanations the Church provides, I do not truly think that God has these expectations.” Alternatively, they are staying in the Church and living the way they see fit. There is no doubt that a huge percentage of Catholics ARE using contraception, missing Mass without confessing it, skipping holy days of obligation, accepting communion with mortal sin on their souls, etc.

Let me ask you this then…where do you think the guilty feeling you say you have is coming from? If the majority of Catholics know better then the Church and don’t buy the “convoluted” reasons the Church offers, then why the guilt? If there is no truth to it, and there is no wrong in following whichever path we see fit, then there should be no guilty conscience. If you are feeling guilt then you need to figure out what it is you need to do to ease your conscience. If you are at peace then you need to quit trying to stir up emotions in others by stating things such as “everybody is doing it.” In real life, people that are truly are doing what they know to be the right thing tend to keep quiet and live their own lives, not find ways to justify their choices with generalizations. As I said originally, talk to your priest and others in real life because no one here is going to be able to council you appropriately and you will get lots of advice you are unwilling to take (and maybe shouldn’t). But to say the Church’s “convoluted” reasons against contraception don’t cut it, and to say that most people “can’t” live out the teachings is completely and utterly false. Every single person CAN do it if they so choose and every single person can live a life if grace and holiness. Just because most people don’t, it in no way changes Truth. Haven’t you ever told your kids that just because everyone else is doing something doesn’t mean they should too? For a child it often feels impossible to sit and behave in school all day every day, and for a teen to not have a cell phone seems like torture. But you know, it is possible to behave and to live without those things. It is the same about the Church and her teachings. It is certainly possible to live them out. All the saints have! Those of us that do are not some breed of super human destined for greatness. We are average everyday sinners that choose, one day at a time, moment by moment to do what is right and just for the glory of God.

And I don’t know where Catholic Churches are closing as the one poster pointed out. Each place I have been to (and we move a lot!) the Church is growing. Each RCIA class is overflowing. This Easter alone we had 37 people come into the Church at my current parish in the South. Traditionally this area is very Protestant. Our Masses are standing room only. But it makes no sense to me that in order to prevent the Church from dying we should have fewer kids…

 

[Avocadomom]

Let me ask you this then…where do you think the guilty feeling you say you have is coming from? If the majority of Catholics know better then the Church and don’t buy the “convoluted” reasons the Church offers, then why the guilt? If there is no truth to it, and there is no wrong in following whichever path we see fit, then there should be no guilty conscience. If you are feeling guilt then you need to figure out what it is you need to do to ease your conscience. If you are at peace then you need to quit trying to stir up emotions in others by stating things such as “everybody is doing it.” In real life, people that are truly are doing what they know to be the right thing tend to keep quiet and live their own lives, not find ways to justify their choices with generalizations. As I said originally, talk to your priest and others in real life because no one here is going to be able to council you appropriately and you will get lots of advice you are unwilling to take (and maybe shouldn’t). But to say the Church’s “convoluted” reasons against contraception don’t cut it, and to say that most people “can’t” live out the teachings is completely and utterly false. Every single person CAN do it if they so choose and every single person can live a life if grace and holiness. Just because most people don’t, it in no way changes Truth. Haven’t you ever told your kids that just because everyone else is doing something doesn’t mean they should too? For a child it often feels impossible to sit and behave in school all day every day, and for a teen to not have a cell phone seems like torture. But you know, it is possible to behave and to live without those things. It is the same about the Church and her teachings. It is certainly possible to live them out. All the saints have! Those of us that do are not some breed of super human destined for greatness. We are average everyday sinners that choose, one day at a time, moment by moment to do what is right and just for the glory of God.

And I don’t know where Catholic Churches are closing as the one poster pointed out. Each place I have been to (and we move a lot!) the Church is growing. Each RCIA class is overflowing. This Easter alone we had 37 people come into the Church at my current parish in the South. Traditionally this area is very Protestant. Our Masses are standing room only. But it makes no sense to me that in order to prevent the Church from dying we should have fewer kids…

I specifically said I did not feel guilty.

I think most people do live as they see fit and never worry about conforming to the rules of The Church. I simply hate being hypocritical.

 

[bitterhope]

I specifically said I did not feel guilty.

I think most people do live as they see fit and never worry about conforming to the rules of The Church. I simply hate being hypocritical.

Yes, I apologize. I reread after I posted. I missed the not in front of guilty.

The rest if what I said still stands though. What makes you feel unwelcomed if you believe most Catholics are just doing their own thing anyway? Why would you doing it too make you feel unwelcomed?

 

[shelby_sun]

I’m not sure it means churches closing… But there are lots of people like me who feel the lifestyle expectations are simply untenable. I have to say that ever since this issue became a problem in my life, it’s been harder and harder to want to go to Mass. I just feel unwelcome and uncomfortable there. I don’t feel guilty, I feel sad and disappointed and faithless. I have never in my life been closer to finding another way to worship the Lord.

People and institutions that are very “black and white” tend to be unpopular and unlikeable. As you know, the number of Catholics who fully practice their faith is fairly low, and yet, many sectors of the Protestant movement are exploding. We can chalk it up to lazy, selfish people wanting an “easier road”, but at some point we have to accept that a lot of people are using their reason to say “Even after listening to the convoluted explanations the Church provides, I do not truly think that God has these expectations.” Alternatively, they are staying in the Church and living the way they see fit. There is no doubt that a huge percentage of Catholics ARE using contraception, missing Mass without confessing it, skipping holy days of obligation, accepting communion with mortal sin on their souls, etc.

I understand what you are saying. When are grandparents were growing up, nobody spoke of such things. They minded there own business and tried to practice their faith as best they could, not worrying what the people next door were doing, and if they found out they were sinning they certainly didn’t call them out on it. On this site they do, and rightly so because if you post something then the game is on and get ready for what will be said.

Like I said before I was not raised in a community that priest and people said who and who were not going to hell. We were taught what they church teaches, but never were we taught Jews, Protestants, etc. were going to hell. We learned God was all powerful and in the end know human person can tell us exactly what he will do, that is why it is called faith instead of fact.

 

[Avocadomom]

Yes, I apologize. I reread after I posted. I missed the not in front of guilty.

The rest if what I said still stands though. What makes you feel unwelcomed if you believe most Catholics are just doing their own thing anyway? Why would you doing it too make you feel unwelcomed?

Because I am not comfortable participating as a “member” of an organization with which I have fundamental disagreements. If I am going to be a Catholic, I think I should be living the faith 100%. If I’m not doing that, or trying to, I think it is very rude to show up every Sunday and take up a seat. I think it is crude to call myself Catholic, but privately “do my own thing.” I wouldn’t join the Sierra Club and then dump used motor oil down my storm drain, I wouldn’t join the NRA and slink off to an anti-gun rally, I wouldn’t join PETA and then go hunting.

 

[bitterhope]

Because I am not comfortable participating as a “member” of an organization with which I have fundamental disagreements. If I am going to be a Catholic, I think I should be living the faith 100%. If I’m not doing that, or trying to, I think it is very rude to show up every Sunday and take up a seat. I think it is crude to call myself Catholic, but privately “do my own thing.” I wouldn’t join the Sierra Club and then dump used motor oil down my storm drain, I wouldn’t join the NRA and slink off to an anti-gun rally, I wouldn’t join PETA and then go hunting.

I respect you immensely for this. I agree with you on many levels. But maybe you can find comfort in the fact that all of us are sinners and are struggling. None of us are perfect. If you intend to continue striving for understanding and you continue to work on accepting things that are difficult, you should remain a Mass going Catholic that struggles like all of us. If you are not willing to accept, have no intention of ever trying to understand, then I personally would walk away. I also believe in integrity. Only you can make that decision by working with people that you know, trust, and have admiration for. I’m my opinion you are well above many other “faithful” Catholics simply because you realize hypocrisy is wrong. I will continue to pray for you and your family. It isn’t fair what life gives us sometimes. I would like to extend to you an invitation to stay and a warm welcome if you choose to, but I do get it if you opt not to accept.

One more thing, NFP does not work for me. My husband and I have discussed the possibility of one day NEEDING to stop having babies for various scenarios. We feel confident that we would abstain until the reasons no longer exist or until my fertility is over. We are apart a lot so we are pretty used to connecting in many different ways besides sex. If my husband was not willing to live that life with me, I have no idea what I would do. I do not envy you at all. I am so sorry for the situation you are in. Please find someone you can work with and see if you can find the way to stay in the Church.

 

[shelby_sun]

Extending Shelby’s argument further we might
as well close the doors right now or even yesterday.
If we run the Church based on a nice democratic
system of majority vote and rule?
Well we must allow abortion, gay marriage, adultery,
murder, etc etc.
This is the problem in trying to cater Christianity
to the Populist vote.

Hello again Mary, when exactly did I “argue” we should close the doors to the Catholic Church. I believe I said that many Catholic churches were closing. So very nice.

Again, Mary, I direct this to you since you seem intent on using my name so often. I must have struck a nerve, hmmm. I have never said the Church should change anything, nor have I said I was right. Really Mary it is too bad you come across as you do, because you are obviously a devout follower of the Catholic Church who believes deeply in what you say.

Again, no one has commented on what the church teaches about interfering with ones death. I would assume when God is ready to call one home to him, he intended for them to die, yet we have people all the time being revived by different means. How is that different than using BC to prevent a life. Either way are we not interfere with what God may want for us?