Should we take the Mortal Sin dogma seriously?

[sapphire778]

Hi guys.

From my understanding of the Church’s teachings, all who die in the state of mortal sin are not saved and they will spend an eternity in Hell, right?
Now, we know that acts such as lying (even casually) or missing Sunday obligations are considered “mortal sins”.

My point is, it is easy to commit a mortal sin and we are not always conscious to repent of it since most of the time these acts are often overlooked and dismissed.

I can’t imagine someone who’s lived a life worshipping God, suddenly missing a Sunday mass to hang around with friends, die before confessing his sins, and end up in hell.
Same with someone who lies etc.

Do you think that I have interpreted the Teaching wrongly? Maybe ‘to die in the state of mortal sin’ is constituted by something more persistent and severe (like committing many mortal sins out of pure rebellion towards God), which then makes one only a “Catholic” by name and therefore he cannot be saved?

I know God can choose to save, and there are exceptions…But this doctrine just sounds abit difficult for me to swallow.

Any thoughts?

 

[Crumpy]

Ever spend any time studying the Catholic faith?

When you question mortal sin, you are questioning the whole basis of the bible, no? If you read about Adam and Eve, you can read about all the rationalizing they did, too. The fruit of the forbidden tree was good for food, tempting, and all that.

The first lesson about obeying God in the Bible is that He takes little things very seriously.

The first thing the serpent did in the garden was to start questioning the rules, just like the OP is doing here. “Did God really say that you shouldn’t eat of the fruit of that tree?”

And, to the point here, you mean to say that you WON’T take time to worship God on Sunday? It’s not WORTH IT to you?

 

[sapphire778]

Of course I spend time studying the faith, which is why I have a question.

I am in no way undermining the Church’s teacihngs, or trying to encourage people to sin against God by recognising that their sins are not serious.

Can you take it if your brother has been a devout Catholic all of his life, missed one Sunday Mass service, and before he could repent of it, dies? And not only that, but die and banished to Hell for an eternity!

You’re fine with that? And when people asked how could you possibly believed he went to hell, are you going to shrug and say “Well, it’s the church’s teaching and I gotta believe in it.”

Of course, my understanding may have been wrong, and I am seeking correction. Don’t have to be so harsh ya.

 

[jnewaz]

Hey,

I’ll try and answer your question to the best of my ability and understanding. I too have had similar questions regarding the doctrinal teachings regarding mortal sins.

I think first and foremost we should understand the nature of sin. That is far too complicated for this thread, or any thread, but I would direct you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church for a thorough explanation.

That being said, you mention that “we are not always conscious to repent of it since most of the time these acts are often overlooked and dismissed”.

By that definition, these “acts” are not mortal sins. A mortal sin must be a deliberate breach of your relationship with God. If this act is something trivial enough that you can overlook it, it isn’t a deliberate breach of that bond.

For example, I may do things that break the rules of my father’s house (where I currently reside). One example of this is leaving paper towels on the counter. Now these are overlooked and dismissed acts (by your word choice).

In this case, I would be committing a venial sin. An act that is “sinful” and “erroneous” but is not fully deliberate, and definitely did not utilize my complete moral conscience.

In order for me to elevate this venial sin to a mortal sin, and thusly condemn myself. I would have to deliberately and fully decide to leave soiled paper towels on the counter, knowing full well that my father is against this and has explicity instructed me to avoid doing so, and to proceed anyway in full conscience of my act.

This is not nearly as likely as me leaving the towels out by mistake.

A perfect illustration of the gravity of sin is the Original Sin. Which was little more than partaking in the consumption of a piece of fruit. This act was not murder, theft, idolatry, adultery, or anything we might see as mortal in nature.

Why then was the consequence of this action not just a mortal sin, but the Original Sin which set forth the tragedy of all humankind?

It is because it was more than the act itself, it was a deliberate breach of the “Eden” the state of grace God had established with our first family. This deliberate violation of God’s command, with full conscience, and with full understanding of its consequence, is what a Mortal Sin consists of.

I hope that helps, and above all else, do not make the mistake of taking on the burden of Judge. Jesus Christ, the Almighty God made incarnate in the flesh of man, is the one appointed to judge the sins of the world. Only he is capable of truly discerning who deserves damnation and who has accepted his gift of redemption.

No other being, whether human or even the angels, has the qualifications to take on such a mighty role. Trust in God’s mercy, for it is (as generations have said) good.

 

[thistle]

Of course I spend time studying the faith, which is why I have a question.

I am in no way undermining the Church’s teacihngs, or trying to encourage people to sin against God by recognising that their sins are not serious.

Can you take it if your brother has been a devout Catholic all of his life, missed one Sunday Mass service, and before he could repent of it, dies? And not only that, but die and banished to Hell for an eternity!

You’re fine with that? And when people asked how could you possibly believed he went to hell, are you going to shrug and say “Well, it’s the church’s teaching and I gotta believe in it.”

Of course, my understanding may have been wrong, and I am seeking correction. Don’t have to be so harsh ya.

The Church teaching is very clear. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
By the way such a person is not banished to Hell. They banish themselves by using their freewill to reject God’s love by committing a mortal sin. It is not God who sends people to Hell. People freely choose to go there by committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentent. Yes it only takes one mortal sin.

To take an extreme example, if a person who has spent their whole lives committing crimes and continuously sinning sincerely repents on their deathbed they would be saved whereas a person who has spent their lives doing good deeds and trying to live a holy life but commits one mortal sin and dies unrepentent then they damn themselves.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Yes, I do believe one mortal sin will send you to hell.

Rather then view that as harsh, see it as incredibly merciful. Why? Because 1 VENIAL sin is enough to DESERVE hell. But God has mercy on us. He also has mercy on us by offering us the sacraments.

It is also possible to be forgiven of your sins without going to the sacrament of confession, by making a perfect contrition. The beaty of sacramental confession (or at least one of its many beauties) is that we KNOW our sins are forgiven. If we attempt to make a perfect contrition on our own, there is the question of how do we know it truly was perfect.

Pax.

You also may want to look into what constitutes a mortal sin. There are 3 conditions:

1. The sin must have a grave matter (this is what you mentioned, a specific act (or failure to act))
2. It must be commited with full knowledge
3. It must be commited willingly, with full consent

So if you are on your way to Mass and you get in a car crash and spend the rest of the day in the hospital, and miss Mass, you have not commited a mortal sin, because you did know willingly miss Mass.

If you miss Mass because you’d rather watch football that Sunday or because your best friend from across the country is in town for the first time in years and you just want to hang out- yes in either of those cases it would be a mortal sin, and you would go to hell if was not forgiven before you died.

 

[jnewaz]

Can you take it if your brother has been a devout Catholic all of his life, missed one Sunday Mass service, and before he could repent of it, dies? And not only that, but die and banished to Hell for an eternity!
.

I would like to take an additional step to discuss this specific quote. As I said in my previous post, a mortal sin requires a full and complete understanding of the gravity of a person’s decision, and then the full and complete motivation to carry out that decision in spite of that understanding.

As for missing Sunday Mass. We must realize that participation in Mass is similair to being called to appear before a King. You are summoned to kneel before the living Christ, who sacrificed himself upon the altar of calvary for our sins. The Old Testament has far stricter rules and requirements for the Jewish faithful, in today’s world, we have only the requirement of attending the Lord’s Supper on His Day.

“Do this is commemoration of me.”

If you were present at his final meal, and then witnessed the events that would soon follow. You would know that Christ made two requests for mankind before his death. He requested that we remember him whenever we partake in his Cup, and he told the apostle John to take care of his Mother.

Focusing on the first, we have to realize that participation in the Mass is not a spiritual exercise. It is a spiritual duty, an obligation. We are called to experience the sacrifice of calvary, renwed upon the altar of our Church.

So, if your brother misses this mass to hang out with friends, we once again must examine the specifics of his situation. Is he fully aware of the gravity of playing hooky with the Mass? If not, than the sin is not mortal.

If he is however aware of this gravity, and decides to deliberately disobey the commands of our Soverign Lord, and choses to benefit himself in the 1 and a half hours he could have spent before the Real Presence of Christ, then yes, he has sinned mortally.

Your next step was to suggest that he might die before getting a chance to repent. Once again I would like to direct you to the Catechism, but I’ll throw in my two cents.

1. The Catechism teaches that there is a Baptism by Desire. This theology, though specifically applicable to baptism and not confession, shows the mindset of our God in regards to those who die before obtaining sacramental forgiveness. The desire to be forgiven, can, if it is genuine, obtain the forgiveness the person “desires” should he die before being able to receive it.

The doctrine of Purgatory, also assits in our understanding of those who die before achieving full sacramental “benefits”. Nothing unclean ever enters heaven, but not everyone dies in a state of purity. God in his Mercy has provided many means for us to achieve salvation, and do not doubt that these means will be available to all who die before being “able” to recieve the sacraments.

1. We do not know the nature of death. We do not know how it happens, and exactly what happens thereafter. Once death happens, time becomes irrelevant. Our understanding of time is based on when the sun rises and sets, a twenty-four hour day. Do you think there’s time in the afterlife? No, there isnt.

We do not know that after one dies, they are simply processed like an application (Saved/Condemned). I for one, highly doubt it is done that way. Christ himself after he died descended into “Hell” to preach the gospel to the dead of the Old Covenant.

God’s Mercy and plan is infinite in proportion. He is not out to “get you” in some legal or doctrinal loophole. ***He desires the salvation of his children. ***If anyone is ever condemned, it is because they chose it, not because they were caught up in the legal framework of His Church’s laws.

God above all else, wishes nothing more than for his children to die in a state of Grace.

Hope that helps.

 

[ANNE_2]

Lying is not always a “mortal sin”. (But lying is a bad habit, and venial sins can lead to mortal sins, so casual lying should be confessed and avoided.)

Missing Mass on Sunday (through one’s own fault) is a “mortal sin”, and violates one of God’s 10 Commandments and one of the Precepts of the Church.

For more detailed info, read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

The Church teaching is very clear. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
By the way such a person is not banished to Hell. They banish themselves by using their freewill to reject God’s love by committing a mortal sin. It is not God who sends people to Hell. People freely choose to go there by committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentent. Yes it only takes one mortal sin.

To take an extreme example, if a person who has spent their whole lives committing crimes and continuously sinning sincerely repents on their deathbed they would be saved whereas a person who has spent their lives doing good deeds and trying to live a holy life but commits one mortal sin and dies unrepentent then they damn themselves.

Wrong!

The Church teaches that anyone who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin goes to Hell. There are two ways of genuinely repenting - The easiest and surest way is to go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession).

The second and more risky way is to make an Act of Perfect Contrition, where you confess your sins mentally/vocally out of the love of God than out of mere emotions such as the fear of Hell or the heinousness of the sin.

Therefore, someone who missed Mass and then dies does not necessarily go to Hell. He/she may have confessed with perfect contrition before his/her last breath, as we know anything can happen even in a split second. It’s for that reason the Church doesn’t make inferences on whether someone in Hell based on the fact we don’t know the heart or mind of the person discussed.

Typical brimstone preaching of CAF users as usual, twisting Church teaching to fit their own warped perception of reality.

 

[Mijoy2]

The Church teaching is very clear. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
By the way such a person is not banished to Hell. They banish themselves by using their freewill to reject God’s love by committing a mortal sin. It is not God who sends people to Hell. People freely choose to go there by committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentent. Yes it only takes one mortal sin.

To take an extreme example, if a person who has spent their whole lives committing crimes and continuously sinning sincerely repents on their deathbed they would be saved whereas a person who has spent their lives doing good deeds and trying to live a holy life but commits one mortal sin and dies unrepentent then they damn themselves.

We are taught faith and reason are not contradictory. This is extremely unreasonable.
I do not necassarily question your doctrine though. However it does make me think the entire thing just may be horse manure. In the atheist vs theist debate, this issue is a whopping 1 point for the athiest.

 

[jnewaz]

We are taught faith and reason are not contradictory. This is extremely unreasonable.
I do not necassarily question your doctrine though. However it does make think the entire thing just may be horse manure. In the atheist vs theist debate, this issue is a whopping 1 point for the athiest.

Can you expand on what exactly you find is horse manure? I’m not questioning it, I just don’t see exactly what you’re referring to. If there’s something in Roman Catholic theology that gives one point to the atheists, I’d like to give a shot at evening the score.

 

[Jim_Roberts]

Hi guys.

From my understanding of the Church’s teachings, all who die in the state of mortal sin are not saved and they will spend an eternity in Hell, right?
Now, we know that acts such as lying (even casually) or missing Sunday obligations are considered “mortal sins”.

My point is, it is easy to commit a mortal sin and we are not always conscious to repent of it since most of the time these acts are often overlooked and dismissed.

I can’t imagine someone who’s lived a life worshipping God, suddenly missing a Sunday mass to hang around with friends, die before confessing his sins, and end up in hell.
Same with someone who lies etc.

Do you think that I have interpreted the Teaching wrongly? Maybe ‘to die in the state of mortal sin’ is constituted by something more persistent and severe (like committing many mortal sins out of pure rebellion towards God), which then makes one only a “Catholic” by name and therefore he cannot be saved?

I know God can choose to save, and there are exceptions…But this doctrine just sounds abit difficult for me to swallow.

Any thoughts?

---

I do not believe this question can be answered by anyone. It will have to be left in the hands of God. Only He will give judgment.

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU

 

[Mijoy2]

Can you expand on what exactly you find is horse manure? I’m not questioning it, I just don’t see exactly what you’re referring to. If there’s something in Roman Catholic theology that gives one point to the atheists, I’d like to give a shot at evening the score.

Yes I can expand on this. Take Thistles dogmatic stance on this to its logical conclusion.

I obvioulsy cannot speak for you but I would venture a guess that your life relationships (family friends aquantinces and the like) are much like mine (and hence everyone elses), We as a people are not all that different. Now consider all these people one at a time and draw a conclusion of the ratio of people in heaven to hell.

How many people fit a standard such as the one Thistle professes? Virtually all non-catholics would be damned. Then virtually all Catholics. Even amongst the Catholics I know, I know only a relatively few who attend Mass regularly without exception. Add some of other favorite mortal sins in the mix, self-pleasure, contraception…many many more, then I think it is safe to conclude heaven is a very empty place and hell is more crowded then Time Square at midnight New Years Day.

Any other take on this is simply a dance around the reality of Thistles strong stand. Unless of course Thistle’s (and by the way I am only using Thistle’s stance as an example, there are many many people in these forums who agree with him) is nothng more than a dance around this proposed reality.

It simply cannot be both ways. Either what Thistle (and those who agree with him) says is true and nearly everone goes to hell, of there is a great deal wrong with this interpretation. I am not attempting to debate this dogmatic stance. I am simply stating the reality that if it is true, there is no joy on our fath indeed. Nothing but reason for despair.

It can’t be both.

 

[jfoges]

Hi guys.

From my understanding of the Church’s teachings, all who die in the state of mortal sin are not saved and they will spend an eternity in Hell, right?
Now, we know that acts such as lying (even casually) or missing Sunday obligations are considered “mortal sins”.

My point is, it is easy to commit a mortal sin and we are not always conscious to repent of it since most of the time these acts are often overlooked and dismissed.

I can’t imagine someone who’s lived a life worshipping God, suddenly missing a Sunday mass to hang around with friends, die before confessing his sins, and end up in hell.
Same with someone who lies etc.

Do you think that I have interpreted the Teaching wrongly? Maybe ‘to die in the state of mortal sin’ is constituted by something more persistent and severe (like committing many mortal sins out of pure rebellion towards God), which then makes one only a “Catholic” by name and therefore he cannot be saved?

I know God can choose to save, and there are exceptions…But this doctrine just sounds abit difficult for me to swallow.

Any thoughts?

There are two things here.

1. for a sin to be mortal it takes more than just a “grave act” there also has to be full consent. Some people say that when one doesn’t intend to do the act in order to offend God, there is no full consent and it’s not a mortal sin.
2. When one goes to confession any sins that one forgets to mention are absolved.

 

[NeedImprovement]

The Church teaching is very clear. Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell.
By the way such a person is not banished to Hell. They banish themselves by using their freewill to reject God’s love by committing a mortal sin. It is not God who sends people to Hell. People freely choose to go there by committing a mortal sin and dying unrepentent. Yes it only takes one mortal sin.

To take an extreme example, if a person who has spent their whole lives committing crimes and continuously sinning sincerely repents on their deathbed they would be saved whereas a person who has spent their lives doing good deeds and trying to live a holy life but commits one mortal sin and dies unrepentent then they damn themselves.

I can’t find any horse manure here at all … (not even any peat moss )

The second paragraph presents us with a good working example of God’s Mercy . What is repeated twice in the post , is the case of a sinner " dying unrepentant" , who “dies unrepentant.”

The key word is “unrepentant”. If we die unrepentant, it means we die hardened to the point where we will refuse God’s Mercy if He were to offer it ; but how could God even offer His Mercy to a soul who has chosen eternally not to repent ?

 

[jnewaz]

Yes I can expand on this. Take Thistles dogmatic stance on this to its logical conclusion.

I obvioulsy cannot speak for you but I would venture a guess that your life relationships (family friends aquantinces and the like) are much like mine (and hence everyone elses), We as a people are not all that different. Now consider all these people one at a time and draw a conclusion of the ratio of people in heaven to hell.

How many people fit a standard such as the one Thistle professes? Virtually all non-catholics would be damned. Then virtually all Catholics. Even amongst the Catholics I know, I know only a relatively few who attend Mass regularly without exception. Add some of other favorite mortal sins in the mix, self-pleasure, contraception…many many more, then I think it is safe to conclude heaven is a very empty place and hell is more crowded then Time Square at midnight New Years Day.

Any other take on this is simply a dance around the reality of Thistles strong stand. Unless of course Thistle’s (and by the way I am only using Thistle’s stance as an example, there are many many people in these forums who agree with him) is nothng more than a dance around this proposed reality.

It simply cannot be both ways. Either what Thistle (and those who agree with him) says is true and nearly everone goes to hell, of there is a great deal wrong with this interpretation. I am not attempting to debate this dogmatic stance. I am simply stating the reality that if it is true, there is no joy on our fath indeed. Nothing but reason for despair.

It can’t be both.

Will you read my post above? Its a few posts above. Instead of regurgitating it here, I’m just going to ask you to read it. In that scenario, isn’t it possible that mortal sins do condemn people, and yet heaven is still a densely populated place?

 

[jnewaz]

Mijoy,

It is post #7, for your reference.

 

[Mijoy2]

Mijoy,

It is post #7, for your reference.

I read your post. Well written and well worded especially when I consider your age. I looked at you profile and saw you are quite young.

I agree with your post. I do have reservations though about the afforded grace to have a last chance (in a sense) to repent of sins at the last moment of death. Another poster NeedsImprovement, eludes to the same principle. I need to ask myself if this is a component of the “dance” I refer to. Is this principle of last moment repentance a Catholic teaching or is it a fabricated way to dance around the issue of dying in a state of mortal sin.

I am in a pretty bad state of mind because of some personnal issues I am dealing with. I regret my earlier post because I do not desire to dash anyones hope.

I’ll leave this, at that.

 

[smichhertz]

Hi sapphire778,

Great question! I’ll take a crack at it.

From my understanding of the Church’s teachings, all who die in the state of mortal sin are not saved and they will spend an eternity in Hell, right?

Correct.

Now, we know that acts such as lying (even casually) or missing Sunday obligations are considered “mortal sins”.

Deliberately missing Sunday mass without serious reason is a mortal sin. I don’t think lying is a mortal sin. Lying is an intrinsic evil (always wrong) but not grave in and of itself. There are probably cases where it can be mortal sin, but I don’t think all lying is mortal sin.

My point is, it is easy to commit a mortal sin and we are not always conscious to repent of it since most of the time these acts are often overlooked and dismissed.

If we aren’t conscious of it then it wasn’t a mortal sin. You have to KNOWINGLY and DELIBERATELY commit a mortal sin. So if it is something that was “overlooked” than you didn’t have sufficient reflection prior to the act for it to be a mortal sin.

I can’t imagine someone who’s lived a life worshipping God, suddenly missing a Sunday mass to hang around with friends, die before confessing his sins, and end up in hell.

Remember, we’re talking about a relationship here. If a man is the perfect husband to his wife, but then cheats on her, the fact that he was a perfect husband prior to cheating doesn’t justify the cheating.

Also remember, that if the man repents of this sin before he dies, than he stands a good chance at Heaven, even if he didn’t get to confession before his death.

Do you think that I have interpreted the Teaching wrongly? Maybe ‘to die in the state of mortal sin’ is constituted by something more persistent and severe (like committing many mortal sins out of pure rebellion towards God), which then makes one only a “Catholic” by name and therefore he cannot be saved?

The phrase “die in the state of mortal sin” has several preconditions:

1. The act committed was grave, done with deliberate intent and full knowledge
2. The person in question is unrepentant of it when they die

Remember, no one in Hell is there because of unfortunate circumstance outside of their control. They freely chose to separate themselves from God.

 

[Jeffe]

If you miss Mass because you’d rather watch football that Sunday or because your best friend from across the country is in town for the first time in years and you just want to hang out- yes in either of those cases it would be a mortal sin, and you would go to hell if was not forgiven before you died.

True, however if one understands that what they have done is a mortal sin, says an Act of Contrition, and has the intent to go to confession BUT they die before they make it is not necessarily without God’s forgiveness.