Should we tell suffering people these things?

[Kathryn_Ann]

Has this every happened to you: When you are ill, or are going through a serious illness, someone tells you that:

“God has chosen to draw you closer to Him through your suffering.” ?

Perhaps the person feels that the sufferer will feel “special” by being so chosen. But this feels very callous to me. How do they claim to know the specific reason that a person is suffering?

Is this too much like Job’s “friends” who blamed Job’s sins for his suffering? Or is it different?

Is it just insensitive?
Or incorrect? What should a fellow Catholic say to another Catholic friend who is suffering?

Telling a suffering person that God has chosen this suffering for one particular reason may not be accurate. There may be many reasons for God allowing this to happen. Also, it presumes that the person is not as close to God as he or she could be. We could all benefit from being closer to God. Why should someone tell a suffering person that his or her suffering is the one, specific reason they are ill.

Are there not better ways to talk to people who are very ill?

I feel that when a friend is ill, I should offer my heartfelt sorrow, offer prayer, useful help, etc. rather than give my own belief about why the person may be going through a tough illness and imply they need to be closer to God. By their reasoning, we should all pray for illness.

Thoughts? Ideas appreciated. Has this ever happened to you-being told you were chosen to suffer so that you could get closer to God? How did this make you feel?

 

[fred_conty]

Kathryn,
difficult question.

It is a question that can only be answered after other questions are answered.

What is the relationship to the sick person? How well and on what terms do you know them?
What degree of spirituality does the sick person have?
Is the illness life threatening?
Whose in the room?

Just as an example, I had an inlaw die not long ago. The family was mostly protestant, but there were some catholics as well. In the hospital, several tried quietly to give them spiritual thoughts. Which were immediately rejected. Another tried and the person got loud about it rejecting anything about God. Even the doctor suggested that things be put in order.
To no avail.
End of story.

And if they are protestant, I doubt whether they will understand suffering in Catholic terms.
And also from what I have heard on CAF, some catholics are not at ease with it either.

It didn’t use to be that way.

Just thoughts.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Kathryn,
difficult question.

It is a question that can only be answered after other questions are answered.

What is the relationship to the sick person? How well and on what terms do you know them?
What degree of spirituality does the sick person have?
Is the illness life threatening?
Whose in the room?

Just as an example, I had an inlaw die not long ago. The family was mostly protestant, but there were some catholics as well. In the hospital, several tried quietly to give them spiritual thoughts. Which were immediately rejected. Another tried and the person got loud about it rejecting anything about God. Even the doctor suggested that things be put in order.
To no avail.
End of story.

And if they are protestant, I doubt whether they will understand suffering in Catholic terms.
And also from what I have heard on CAF, some catholics are not at ease with it either.

It didn’t use to be that way.

Just thoughts.

Thank you for your kind thoughts and taking the time to respond. I’m mostly speaking of Catholic to Catholic in this case. Proverbs 25:11 suggests that “Whoever speaks a word at an opportune time is like apples of gold on beds of silver.” (Douay Rheims Catholic version.) I wonder how many people like to judge first, and comfort second? I just know that people really welcome someone who truly cares, regardless of their religious orientation. I thank God for all my Catholic friends who are always so caring. They are the golden apples in the too numerous platitudes of life. There will always be those who need to learn how to better respond to people in the midst of suffering.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I feel that when a friend is ill, I should offer my heartfelt sorrow, offer prayer, useful help, etc. rather than give my own belief about why the person may be going through a tough illness and imply they need to be closer to God. By their reasoning, we should all pray for illness.

I absolutely agree.

I remember when I was diagnosed with cancer being told by someone who was a deeply faithful Christian, “now you need to try and understand why God has given you cancer.” And all I could think was along the lines of Jesus spent so much of his ministry healing people. How could you think for one moment that God GIVES cancer to someone? It happens, whether it’s due to genetics or the environment or something else, it happens and God didn’t stop it from happening. But I don’t for one second believe that my loving Abba would inflict a life-threatening disease on me.

And I can only imagine what the response would have been for someone who didn’t believe in God or whose faith was shaky. “You want me to believe in someone who terrorizes people? Why would I want to do that?”

I think someone who is ill (or someone who is grieving the loss of a loved one) needs prayers and support. I think the person needs to know that God is with them in their suffering, that Jesus went through great suffering and understands it. When they’re at their weakest and can’t possibly make it on their own, God will be there to uphold them. And ultimately, God can bring good from their suffering and that’s a hope we need to hold onto.

 

[hazcompat]

The Imitation of Christ
Thomas-a-Kempis

THOUGHTS ON THE MISERY OF MAN
WHEREVER you are, wherever you go, you are miserable unless you turn to God. So why be dismayed when things do not happen as you wish and desire? Is there anyone who has everything as he wishes? No – neither I, nor you, nor any man on earth. There is no one in the world, be he Pope or king, who does not suffer trial and anguish.

Who is the better off then? Surely, it is the man who will suffer something for God. Many unstable and weak-minded people say: “See how well that man lives, how rich, how great he is, how powerful and mighty.” But you must lift up your eyes to the riches of heaven and realize that the material goods of which they speak are nothing. These things are uncertain and very burdensome because they are never possessed without anxiety and fear. Man’s happiness does not consist in the possession of abundant goods; a very little is enough.

Living on earth is truly a misery. The more a man desires spiritual life, the more bitter the present becomes to him, because he understands better and sees more clearly the defects, the corruption of human nature. To eat and drink, to watch and sleep, to rest, to labor, and to be bound by other human necessities is certainly a great misery and affliction to the devout man, who would gladly be released from them and be free from all sin. Truly, the inner man is greatly burdened in this world by the necessities of the body, and for this reason the Prophet prayed that he might be as free from them as possible, when he said: “From my necessities, O Lord, deliver me.”

But woe to those who know not their own misery, and greater woe to those who
love this miserable and corruptible life. Some, indeed, can scarcely procure its necessities either by work or by begging; yet they love it so much that, if they could live
here always, they would care nothing for the kingdom of God.How foolish and faithless of heart are those who are so engrossed in earthly things as to relish nothing but what is carnal! Miserable men indeed, for in the end they will see to their sorrow how cheap and worthless was the thing they loved.

The saints of God and all devout friends of Christ did not look to what pleases the body nor to the things that are popular from time to time. Their whole hope and aim centered on the everlasting good. Their whole desire pointed upward to the lasting and invisible realm, lest the love of what is visible drag them down to lower things.

Do not lose heart, then, my brother, in pursuing your spiritual life. There is yet time, and your hour is not past. Why delay your purpose? Arise! Begin at once and say: “Now is the time to act, now is the time to fight, now is the proper time to amend.” When you are troubled and afflicted, that is the time to gain merit. You must pass through water and fire before coming to rest. Unless you do violence to yourself you will not overcome vice. So long as we live in this fragile body, we can neither be free from sin nor live without weariness and sorrow. Gladly would we rest from all misery, but in losing innocence through sin we also lost true blessedness. Therefore, we must have patience and await the mercy of God until this iniquity passes, until mortality is swallowed up in life.

How great is the frailty of human nature which is ever prone to evil! Today you
confess your sins and tomorrow you again commit the sins which you confessed. One
moment you resolve to be careful, and yet after an hour you act as though you had
made no resolution.

We have cause, therefore, because of our frailty and feebleness, to humble
ourselves and never think anything great of ourselves. Through neglect we may quickly
lose that which by God’s grace we have acquired only through long, hard labor. What,
eventually, will become of us who so quickly grow lukewarm? Woe to us if we presume
to rest in peace and security when actually there is no true holiness in our lives. It
would be beneficial for us, like good novices, to be instructed once more in the
principles of a good life, to see if there be hope of amendment and greater spiritual
progress in the future.

Peace

 

[hazcompat]

The Eleventh Chapter
FEW LOVE THE CROSS OF JESUS
JESUS has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His
cross. He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to
share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few
wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to
the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the
shame of the Cross. Many love Him as long as they encounter no hardship; many praise
and bless Him as long as they receive some comfort from Him. But if Jesus hides
Himself and leaves them for a while, they fall either into complaints or into deep
dejection. Those, on the contrary, who love Him for His own sake and not for any
comfort of their own, bless Him in all trial and anguish of heart as well as in the bliss of
consolation. Even if He should never give them consolation, yet they would continue to
praise Him and wish always to give Him thanks. What power there is in pure love for
Jesus – love that is flee from all self-interest and self-love!
Do not those who always seek consolation deserve to be called mercenaries? Do
not those who always think of their own profit and gain prove that they love
themselves rather than Christ? Where can a man be found who desires to serve God for
nothing? Rarely indeed is a man so spiritual as to strip himself of all things. And who
shall find a man so truly poor in spirit as to be free from every creature? His value is
like that of things brought from the most distant lands.
If a man give all his wealth, it is nothing; if he do great penance, it is little; if he
gain all knowledge, he is still far afield; if he have great virtue and much ardent
devotion, he still lacks a great deal, and especially, the one thing that is most necessary
to him. What is this one thing? That leaving all, he forsake himself, completely renounce
himself, and give up all private affections. Then, when he has done all that he knows
ought to be done, let him consider it as nothing, let him make little of what may be
considered great; let him in all honesty call himself an unprofitable servant. For truth
itself has said: “When you shall have done all these things that are commanded you,
say: ‘we are unprofitable servants.’”
Then he will be truly poor and stripped in spirit, and with the prophet may say:
“I am alone and poor.” No one, however, is more wealthy than such a man; no one is
more powerful, no one freer than he who knows how to leave all things and think of himself as least of all.

Peace

 

[fred_conty]

Kathryn,
I heard a story about someone who pruchased metal rosary rings. It is a ring that will fit on a finger. It has a small cross on the top of the ring, surrounded by 10 little metal beads.

As they visited the sick, they would offer them a rosary ring which was blessed. And the sick just loved them, the protestants as well. It was something to hold onto and had the cross on it. A big hit.

The cross explains suffering in a way nothing else can.

Just a thought.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I absolutely agree.

I remember when I was diagnosed with cancer being told by someone who was a deeply faithful Christian, “now you need to try and understand why God has given you cancer.” And all I could think was along the lines of Jesus spent so much of his ministry healing people. How could you think for one moment that God GIVES cancer to someone? It happens, whether it’s due to genetics or the environment or something else, it happens and God didn’t stop it from happening. But I don’t for one second believe that my loving Abba would inflict a life-threatening disease on me.

And I can only imagine what the response would have been for someone who didn’t believe in God or whose faith was shaky. “You want me to believe in someone who terrorizes people? Why would I want to do that?”

I think someone who is ill (or someone who is grieving the loss of a loved one) needs prayers and support. I think the person needs to know that God is with them in their suffering, that Jesus went through great suffering and understands it. When they’re at their weakest and can’t possibly make it on their own, God will be there to uphold them. And ultimately, God can bring good from their suffering and that’s a hope we need to hold onto.

I really appreciate your response, as I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person who felt this way. Everything you pointed out really helps to clarify the difference between our Loving Father who IS WITH US through everything, yet Who is not punishing us (or as some people might suggest, rewarding us (!) ) with cancer because we are not, in their judgement, close enough to God. Things are allowed to happen, but I love the way you pointed out how much time our Dear Jesus spent healing people! And miracles do happen. Thank you!

 

[Joe_5859]

Yeah, I think it’s theologically imprecise (and a bit dangerous) to imply that God gives suffering to people. God does not cause suffering. He permits it in the sense that he doesn’t always prevent our suffering (if he always prevented everyone from suffering in this fallen world of ours, free will would go out the window).

I think the impulse to offer prayer and support is a good one. Letting them know that God is there for them is good. We have a God who knows what it means to suffer. And His suffering gives meaning to ours when we unite our suffering to His. We do not suffer in vain.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Kathryn,
I heard a story about someone who pruchased metal rosary rings. It is a ring that will fit on a finger. It has a small cross on the top of the ring, surrounded by 10 little metal beads.

As they visited the sick, they would offer them a rosary ring which was blessed. And the sick just loved them, the protestants as well. It was something to hold onto and had the cross on it. A big hit.

The cross explains suffering in a way nothing else can.

Just a thought.

That is a very beautiful idea indeed. Yes, let our Dear Jesus and His Cross help explain the things that are often inexplicable, not friends who judge us.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Yeah, I think it’s theologically imprecise (and a bit dangerous) to imply that God gives suffering to people. God does not cause suffering. He permits it in the sense that he doesn’t always prevent our suffering (if he always prevented everyone from suffering in this fallen world of ours, free will would go out the window).

I think the impulse to offer prayer and support is a good one. Letting them know that God is there for them is good. We have a God who knows what it means to suffer. And His suffering gives meaning to ours when we unite our suffering to His. We do not suffer in vain.

Yes, and it’s all in the attitude. Job’s “friends” in the Bible judged him severely. Taking up our cross and following Jesus includes being loving to others in need, not implying that the suffering one is less pious. Thank you so much for your thoughtful answer. The Passion of the Cross is all about compassion, not judging others as unworthy just because they are ill.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

The Eleventh Chapter
FEW LOVE THE CROSS OF JESUS
JESUS has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His
cross. He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to
share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few
wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to
the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the
shame of the Cross. Many love Him as long as they encounter no hardship; many praise
and bless Him as long as they receive some comfort from Him. But if Jesus hides
Himself and leaves them for a while, they fall either into complaints or into deep
dejection. Those, on the contrary, who love Him for His own sake and not for any
comfort of their own, bless Him in all trial and anguish of heart as well as in the bliss of
consolation. Even if He should never give them consolation, yet they would continue to
praise Him and wish always to give Him thanks. What power there is in pure love for
Jesus – love that is flee from all self-interest and self-love!
Do not those who always seek consolation deserve to be called mercenaries? Do
not those who always think of their own profit and gain prove that they love
themselves rather than Christ? Where can a man be found who desires to serve God for
nothing? Rarely indeed is a man so spiritual as to strip himself of all things. And who
shall find a man so truly poor in spirit as to be free from every creature? His value is
like that of things brought from the most distant lands.
If a man give all his wealth, it is nothing; if he do great penance, it is little; if he
gain all knowledge, he is still far afield; if he have great virtue and much ardent
devotion, he still lacks a great deal, and especially, the one thing that is most necessary
to him. What is this one thing? That leaving all, he forsake himself, completely renounce
himself, and give up all private affections. Then, when he has done all that he knows
ought to be done, let him consider it as nothing, let him make little of what may be
considered great; let him in all honesty call himself an unprofitable servant. For truth
itself has said: “When you shall have done all these things that are commanded you,
say: ‘we are unprofitable servants.’”
Then he will be truly poor and stripped in spirit, and with the prophet may say:
“I am alone and poor.” No one, however, is more wealthy than such a man; no one is
more powerful, no one freer than he who knows how to leave all things and think of himself as least of all.

Peace

I CORINTHIANS 13, “THE LOVE CHAPTER:”:angel1:

"Though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.

2 And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing.

3 Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess**, and even give up my body to be burned – if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever.**

4 Love is always patient and kind; love is never jealous; love is not boastful or conceited,

5 it is never rude and never seeks its own advantage, it does not take offence or store up grievances.

6 Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but finds its joy in the truth.

7 It is always ready to make allowances, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes.

8 Love never comes to an end. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if tongues, they will fall silent; and if knowledge, it will be done away with.

9** For we know only imperfectly, and we prophesy imperfectly;**

10 but once perfection comes, all imperfect things will be done away with.

11 When I was a child, I used to talk like a child, and see things as a child does, and think like a child; but now that I have become an adult, I have finished with all childish ways.
12 Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles, but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known.

13 As it is, these remain: faith, hope and love, the three of them; and the greatest of them is love."

And as someone just reminded us, Jesus spent a great deal of His holy ministry healing people. To tell a suffering person that the precise reason for their suffering is to correct their falling away from God or not carrying their cross, or because they are not close enough to God, is not loving or compassionate.

**Carrying *one’s own ***cross includes extending compassion,

not pronouncing judgements:dts: about how well or not the other is at carrying** his or her *** cross.*

We are to carry our OWN cross, not make others’ paths more painful.

This is a different kind of peace altogether for all.
Peace:angel1:

 

[hazcompat]

APOSTOLIC LETTER
SALVIFICI DOLORIS…

CONCLUSION

1. This is the meaning of suffering, which is truly supernatural and at the same time human. It is supernatural because it is rooted in the divine mystery of the Redemption of the world, and it is likewise deeply human, because in it the person discovers himself, his own humanity, his own dignity, his own mission.

Suffering is certainly part of the mystery of man. Perhaps suffering is not wrapped up as much as man is by this mystery, which is an especially impenetrable one. The Second Vatican Council expressed this truth that “…only in the mystery of the Incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light. In fact…, Christ, the final Adam, by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and his love, fully reveals man to himself and makes his supreme calling clear”(100). If these words refer to everything that concerns the mystery of man, then they certainly refer in a very special way to human suffering. Precisely at this point the “revealing of man to himself and making his supreme vocation clear” is particularly indispensable. It also happens as experience proves—that this can be particularly dramatic. But when it is completely accomplished and becomes the light of human life, it is particularly blessed. “Through Christ and in Christ, the riddles of sorrow and death grow meaningful”(101).

I now end the present considerations on suffering in the year in which the Church is living the extraordinary Jubilee linked to the anniversary of the Redemption.

The mystery of the Redemption of the world is in an amazing way rooted in suffering, and this suffering in turn finds in the mystery of the Redemption its supreme and surest point of reference.

We wish to live this Year of the Redemption in special union with all those who suffer. And so there should come together in spirit beneath the Cross on Calvary all suffering people who believe in Christ, and particularly those who suffer because of their faith in him who is the Crucified and Risen One, so that the offering of their sufferings may hasten the fulfilment of the prayer of the Saviour himself that all may be one(102). Let there also gather beneath the Cross all people of good will, for on this Cross is the “Redeemer of man”, the Man of Sorrows, who has taken upon himself the physical and moral sufferings of the people of all times, so that in love they may find the salvific meaning of their sorrow and valid answers to all of their questions.

Together with Mary, Mother of Christ, who stood beneath the Cross(103),we pause beside all the crosses of contemporary man.

We invoke all the Saints, who down the centuries in a special way shared in the suffering of Christ. We ask them to support us.

And we ask all you who suffer to support us. We ask precisely you who are weak to become a source of strength for the Church and humanity. In the terrible battle between the forces of good and evil, revealed to our eyes by our modern world, may your suffering in union with the Cross of Christ be victorious!

To all of you, dearest brothers and sisters, I send my Apostolic Blessing.

Given at Rome, at Saint Peter’s, on the liturgical Memorial of Our Lady of Lourdes, 11 February 1984, in the sixth year of my Pontificate.

JOHN PAUL II

 

[Sarcelle]

Has this every happened to you: When you are ill, or are going through a serious illness, someone tells you that:

“God has chosen to draw you closer to Him through your suffering.” ?

Perhaps the person feels that the sufferer will feel “special” by being so chosen. But this feels very callous to me. How do they claim to know the specific reason that a person is suffering?

Is this too much like Job’s “friends” who blamed Job’s sins for his suffering? Or is it different?

Is it just insensitive?
Or incorrect? What should a fellow Catholic say to another Catholic friend who is suffering?

Telling a suffering person that God has chosen this suffering for one particular reason may not be accurate. There may be many reasons for God allowing this to happen. Also, it presumes that the person is not as close to God as he or she could be. We could all benefit from being closer to God. Why should someone tell a suffering person that his or her suffering is the one, specific reason they are ill.

Are there not better ways to talk to people who are very ill?

I feel that when a friend is ill, I should offer my heartfelt sorrow, offer prayer, useful help, etc. rather than give my own belief about why the person may be going through a tough illness and imply they need to be closer to God. By their reasoning, we should all pray for illness.

Thoughts? Ideas appreciated. Has this ever happened to you-being told you were chosen to suffer so that you could get closer to God? How did this make you feel?

I agree.

This is one the main difficulties I have with Catholicism. It seems that we are all supposed to be masochists. This comes out in full force when I read of the Saints and their trials and how we are supposed to love suffering.

As a child, I have seen abused wives encouraged to stay with their abuser and just “offer it up.” Sure.

My atheist father would often point to these examples and say, “See, I told you, something is wrong with Catholicism.”

Now before you accuse me of anti-Catholicism, I agree suffering can have redemptive purposes but when confronted with a suffering person, the best reaction would be compassion not platitudes.

 

[hazcompat]

In the first year good inentions wane. After 5 only immediate family remain. In ten, your spouse and children have sustained but cannot comprehend. Without the “Man of Sorrows” life becomes a senseless meaningless nightmare. Jesus Christ Is Lord.

Peace

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I agree.

This is one the main difficulties I have with Catholicism. It seems that we are all supposed to be masochists. This comes out in full force when I read of the Saints and their trials and how we are supposed to love suffering.

As a child, I have seen abused wives encouraged to stay with their abuser and just “offer it up.” Sure.

My atheist father would often point to these examples and say, “See, I told you, something is wrong with Catholicism.”

Now before you accuse me of anti-Catholicism, I agree suffering can have redemptive purposes but when confronted with a suffering person, the best reaction would be compassion not platitudes.

Sarcelle, I am sorry you went through these things and also that you saw people being abused who were not given any compassion or help in their distress. Also, please know that there is just as much guilt if not more, in the protestant sects. I have over thirty years experience with that.I think it’s a major misunderstanding, this thing about Catholic guilt. In some ways, guilt can lead us to feel the need to confess, which is good. But we’re called to peace and love and compassion in all things.

When I quoted First Corinthians a few posts above, it was to show that although we do each have to carry our own cross, that the scripture teaches that “although I give my body to be burned” (in sacrifice) “and have no love, it profits me nothing.”

To me, this means that we don’t buy our way into Heaven or become more righteous by a show of martyrdom. Love proceeds real martyrdom. Love has to proceed everything.

Also, I’m convinced that real Catholic teaching promotes this love. We carry our own cross, but that cross is founded on love, so that we don’t trespass and judge how someone else is carrying his or her own cross. This is crucial.

Love, God’s Divine first intent, makes us want to lessen other’s distress, the opposite of blithely telling others “Just offer it up.” That’s so callous, and not Catholic teaching. Part of the cross we carry is to let God’s compassion and love come forth even as we may be burdened ourselves. I really thank you for your kind reply. As a Catholic convert, I am so comforted by all the love other Catholics have shown me and my family. Now and then, we come across attitudes that don’t seem in line with true Catholic teaching. Suffering is certainly a mystery. But Love will remain after all knowledge passes away. Even if we try to understand everything, only Love, “that which is perfect, will remain.” I’m so glad of that!

 

[MarkInOregon]

Has this every happened to you: When you are ill, or are going through a serious illness, someone tells you that:

“God has chosen to draw you closer to Him through your suffering.” ?

Perhaps the person feels that the sufferer will feel “special” by being so chosen. But this feels very callous to me. How do they claim to know the specific reason that a person is suffering?

Is this too much like Job’s “friends” who blamed Job’s sins for his suffering? Or is it different?

You have received some good responses. I just want to comment on you Job question. I don’t think it is at all like Job’s friends. Job’s friends, as you point out, blaimed Job for his suffering. They said that Job must have done something wrong and that is what caused his suffering. I don’t think this is what you example shows. At least that is not how I read it.

I think in this society we are all to easily offended and to quick to draw negative conclusions. We fail to accept peoples feeble attempts at comfort (and all attempts are feeble) in the spirit in which they are offered. Instead of graciously accepting them–we look to critique them, and paint them in the worst possible light. I don’t find that statement callous. I think that is may not be well framed but I don’t jump to the conclusion that the person is trying to tell me that God chose me, picked me, to suffer. I think it is uncharitalbe to read it as if the person is saying: “God looked down at all 6 billion people and he chose you.” We all know, or should know. that’s not how it works. But shouldn’t all suffering draw us closer to God? Isn’t that all the person is trying to remind the person of? When we are suffering it is hard to see that or remember that and we do need to be reminded that our suffering can and should draw us closer to God, that we can offer it up with Christs suffering and that some good may come from it–in the midst of our suffering it is all to easy to lose sight of that.

Anyway–I didn’t read the phase at all as you did.

Peace,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

Telling a suffering person that God has chosen this suffering for one particular reason may not be accurate. There may be many reasons for God allowing this to happen. Also, it presumes that the person is not as close to God as he or she could be. We could all benefit from being closer to God. Why should someone tell a suffering person that his or her suffering is the one, specific reason they are ill.

This is what I don’t get from the statement you gave us. I don’t see the statement as saying this is the one, the only, the definitive reason for the suffering. Does the suffering not provide us this opportunity though? Are any of us as close to God as we can be? As we should be? I know that I am not (and you’re probably thinking to yourself “Boy that’s for sure.”), and I don’t think you’d find any saint who thought that they were (and no this doesn’t imply I am a saint–not even in the same country). Why should we take offense at the suggestion that the situation we find ourselves in offers us the opportunity to draw closer to God? Why should we interpret it as a put down? As someone telling us we are not as close God as we should be? Why should we take it that way?

Are there not better ways to talk to people who are very ill?

There may be better ways of conveying what you mean but I find all words to be inadequate.

I feel that when a friend is ill, I should offer my heartfelt sorrow, offer prayer, useful help, etc. rather than give my own belief about why the person may be going through a tough illness and imply they need to be closer to God. By their reasoning, we should all pray for illness.

I have seen people offended and irritated by the offer of prayers and sorrow and who rebuff offers of help. “Why should you feel sorry me?” “I don’t need your pitty or your prayers?” etc.

And, again, I fail to see why you take the statement you provided as implying the person “needs” to be closer to God–do you think they’re saying that if the person had just been close enough to God–they wouldn’t have gotten ill–is that it? I just don’ t see that. Isn’t it really just a statement that this suffering provides an opportunity to draw closer to God–which is something we all need to do? I just can’t read it as an attack or as something indicating anything at all about the persons closeness to God. Their reasoning in no way implies we should pray for illness. It may imply that we all need to be closer to God and that we should take advantage of the opportunities we receive or have to get closer to God, but anything beyond that is, in my opinion, reading into the statement something that isn’t there.

I’d like to see us all step back and accept peoples inadequate attempts at comfort without judgment of offense.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

You have received some good responses. I just want to comment on you Job question. I don’t think it is at all like Job’s friends. Job’s friends, as you point out, blaimed Job for his suffering. They said that Job must have done something wrong and that is what caused his suffering. I don’t think this is what you example shows. At least that is not how I read it.

I think in this society we are all to easily offended and to quick to draw negative conclusions. We fail to accept peoples feeble attempts at comfort (and all attempts are feeble) in the spirit in which they are offered. Instead of graciously accepting them–we look to critique them, and paint them in the worst possible light. I don’t find that statement callous. I think that is may not be well framed but I don’t jump to the conclusion that the person is trying to tell me that God chose me, picked me, to suffer. I think it is uncharitalbe to read it as if the person is saying: “God looked down at all 6 billion people and he chose you.” We all know, or should know. that’s not how it works. But shouldn’t all suffering draw us closer to God? Isn’t that all the person is trying to remind the person of? When we are suffering it is hard to see that or remember that and we do need to be reminded that our suffering can and should draw us closer to God, that we can offer it up with Christs suffering and that some good may come from it–in the midst of our suffering it is all to easy to lose sight of that.

Anyway–I didn’t read the phase at all as you did.

Peace,
Mark

Hi, and thank you for taking the time to make such a kind and thoughtful response.

One of the posters here reminded us that Jesus spent so much of His very precious time on earth healing people. Of course sometimes we are healed and sometimes we are not. “Neither life or death…” or myriad other things “can separate us from the love of God.” I certainly understand how awkward people often feel when they just don’t know what to say. Perhaps they fall back on this “God has chosen to draw you closer to Him through suffering,” response because they just don’t know how to respond and are shy.

My question in the title box is “Should we tell suffering people these things?” In other words, we might want to take just as much time in thinking about how we treat suffering people as we do giving pat responses.

There is much in the tone of voice, or the words of the written letter, that speaks to people who are in distress. One person can say the exact same words with such great compassion (and a follow up visit or card) as another person, but it feels different to the recipient. No one should be irritated by another offering prayer, but I think there are ways to offer help that don’t include presuming that someone else hasn’t quite reached their goal.

But I do think that it is a bit like Job’s friends. While they blamed Job’s sinfulness for causing his situation, people can often sound uncaring when all they offer is their brief judgement that God has chosen to use this to bring us closer to Him, as if they assume we are just not close enough. As I mentioned earlier, I feel that we all carry our own cross. We are not to make other’s harder to bear. My question is about what it is that we should be telling suffering people.

To determine that someone could be brought closer to God through some ordeal might be technically correct. Of course everyone could be closer to God.

To determine another person’s heart, their cross, that the challenges they bear in life are always gifts directly from God is not correct. Many suffer due to war, famine, despotic rule, rape, crime, etc. God can work miracles through any situation. But we shouldn’t presume to tell another person where they are in God’s estimation or to determine which of their burdens are gifts of God, because that is not for them to decide. They should bear their own crosses, not make others harder to bear.

To say that another can draw closer to something means they have not reached that goal. People are to bear their own cross and “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.” They are not to judge exactly how another person carries his or her own cross.

I think we can offer more comfort to suffering people than what is found in platitudes and in presumptions about their walk with God.

Thank you very much for your caring enough to give your insight. We can certainly all learn from one another. I do find great comfort in our Holy Church, through the Blessed Virgin Mary and her wonderful example.

I can learn, from my own suffering, and hope that when someone else is in distress that if I truly do not have the right words to say to them, I will simply be there for them with compassion and prayer. It might be the greatest gift of all to ask questions at these times, rather than make rash judgements or offend. "How are you getting along? How do you feel? What can I do? " would be welcome, I’m sure. Remember, wounds make people especially sensitive, quite literally and emotionally. The world is sometimes harsh enough, and we all need gentleness at times.

 

[mlz]

Kathryn,
difficult question.

It is a question that can only be answered after other questions are answered.

What is the relationship to the sick person? How well and on what terms do you know them?
What degree of spirituality does the sick person have?
Is the illness life threatening?
Whose in the room?

Just as an example, I had an inlaw die not long ago. The family was mostly protestant, but there were some catholics as well. In the hospital, several tried quietly to give them spiritual thoughts. Which were immediately rejected. Another tried and the person got loud about it rejecting anything about God. Even the doctor suggested that things be put in order.
To no avail.
End of story.

And if they are protestant, I doubt whether they will understand suffering in Catholic terms.
And also from what I have heard on CAF, some catholics are not at ease with it either.

It didn’t use to be that way.

Just thoughts.

I agree, it is difficult and depends on the person. We must be sensitive to the Holy Spirit.
mlz