Should we watch Michael Voris?

[Bataar]

Bataar:

Here’s an example. The church teaches that one must be Catholic to be saved. It’s in many dogmatic statements and was even proclaimed by Pope Boniface VIII in an Ex Cathedra statement and is therefore infallible and cannot be changed.

Pope Francis claims that it’s a grave sin to try to convert Jews and the Orthodox. If they’re not converted, according to church doctrine, they cannot be saved. How do you reconcile this contradiction?

I think you may be misunderstanding the Church’s teaching on salvation. The Church does not teach that one needs to be Catholic to be saved.

This is official Catholic teaching from the Infallible document Unam Sanctum written by Pope Boniface VIII:

" …There is one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…"

" …Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

That’s official Catholic teaching that has the guarantee of truth by the Holy Spirit.

 

[TMC]

This is official Catholic teaching from the Infallible document Unam Sanctum written by Pope Boniface VIII:

" …There is one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…"

" …Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

That’s official Catholic teaching that has the guarantee of truth by the Holy Spirit.

Have you read the Catechism? Or anything the Church has put out on this topic in the last 800 years? I prefer not to divert this thread into an argument on Feeneyism, but the Church teaching on salvation is very clear - one need not be Catholic to be saved.

 

[Bataar]

Bataar:

This is official Catholic teaching from the Infallible document Unam Sanctum written by Pope Boniface VIII:

" …There is one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…"

" …Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

That’s official Catholic teaching that has the guarantee of truth by the Holy Spirit.

Have you read the Catechism? Or anything the Church has put out on this topic in the last 800 years? I prefer not to divert this thread into an argument on Feeneyism, but the Church teaching on salvation is very clear - one need not be Catholic to be saved.

That goes back to my point about a pope’s teaching and church teaching contradicting. The teaching in the Infallible document I quoted cannot be changed and will be true for eternity. Anything that contradicts it is heresy by definition.

 

[TMC]

That goes back to my point about a pope’s teaching and church teaching contradicting. The teaching in the Infallible document I quoted cannot be changed and will be true for eternity. Anything that contradicts it is heresy by definition.

I think it supports my point better. The Church has extensively explained the doctrine of EENS and how the current application of that doctrine is consistent with Tradition. I’m sure you have seen those documents and have decided to reject them. If any Catholic, whether you are anyone else, can do their own review of Church history and decide that the Church doesn’t REALLY teach what the Catechism says (what the Council says, what the Bishops say, what the Pope says), but in that person’s view teaches something else, then we are all just Protestants, really.

As I said in a previous post, disagree with the Church if you want, that is up to you and your conscience. When you say that you get to say what the Church really teaches and what is really heresy, not the Pope, not the bishops, not an ecumenical council, but just you (maybe with Voris cheering you on), then you are saying there is no Church.

 

[pnewton]

TMC:

Bataar:

Voris isn’t the one issuing statements and teachings that contradict church doctrine.

Are you sure about that? Seems like the Church things that he is, and that Fr. Martin is not. When it comes to what the Church’s doctrine is and is not, I will stick with the Pope and the Church.

What will you do when the pope and the church contradict each other?

I would spend energy examining my own understanding, operating from the most likely conclusion that my less knowledgeable opinion is faulty.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Pope Francis claims that it’s a grave sin to try to convert Jews and the Orthodox. If they’re not converted, according to church doctrine, they cannot be saved. How do you reconcile this contradiction?

Probably the word “to convert” was meant “to rebaptise”. It could be mistransltated to english.

Most probably he was referring to St. Paul’s epistle

Ephesians 4:4-5
4 There is one body one spirit, just as you were called …
5 One lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

Building the bridge should mean:

1. To teach the people that God can do the impossible. There is hope of healing .
2. Scientifically it is not impossible, because their biological body is normal. And human brain is very malleable. It can learn and unlearn, and being reshaped through therapy as well as spiritual journey.
3. Further scientific studies (long term)
   Is it possible that ssa is a form of “sexual narcissism”? I read about narcissism: a person who is abused as a child, he covers his own emotion, but then he likes to “harvest” others emotion to feed his need for grandiousity. Narcissism does not always caused by abuse. The cause varies and not always known.
   I see somewhat similar spirit in people who watch porn. They “harvest” others feelings to feed their own.

The church knows full well that on top of psychology is Spirit. The church should teach how to discern the Spirit: Its not okay to be entertained by watching other humans being exploited by porn business for the sake of minutes selfish desire. This is a form of idolatry as well as adultery. Our choice in the spirit have consequences.The spirit manifests in our psychology & biology too Romans 1:24-28

1. Prayers in the name of Jesus with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in a Healing Mass.

The above is what I imagine/ my suggestion/ idea what to build the bridge should be. What Fr. James Martin do isn’t building any bridge. Instead of bringing back the lost lambs, he has misled many people.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Have you read Scott Hahn’s classic “Hail Holy Queen?” That book helped me so much when I was a young Catholic, in those first years after Conversion. That book did not once talk about the marital sexual morals of the Church.

I read dozens of Catholic books every month.

They are all written to Catholics and not a one of them has said “do not have sex outside of marriage”. Those books are written to and for an audience, I am not that audience.

 

[angel12]

That goes back to my point about a pope’s teaching and church teaching contradicting. The teaching in the Infallible document I quoted cannot be changed and will be true for eternity. Anything that contradicts it is heresy by definition.

Are you claiming that the Catechism is heretical?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I think the things Michael Voris says are difficult to hear, because of how he says them. It is not so much that what he is saying is not true or wrong. I am right now listening to Al Kresta on EWTN pretty much saying the same things. Maybe just not as loud.

 

[gracepoole]

The problem with Voris as I see it is this: he may well exaggerate the negative in order to support his business. I don’t really remember ever seeing a positive “Vortex” episode – that is, one that doesn’t disparage some aspect of the hierarchy, the “Church of Nice,” or “lukewarm Catholics.” A former employee of CM has said the same, sadly.

I was told to write an article on Cardinal Dolan and his Making All Things New pastoral initiative. In it, many dying parishes were being closed down to save the Archdiocese of New York money. I added several quotes from distraught and sad parishioners, as the angle was clearly to portray Cardinal Dolan as a bad person. However, I made a mistake in the writing of it: I added a quote from Dolan saying how sorry he was for having to close down the parishes, and that he felt for the parishioners who were losing their parish communities.

I was told by my editor that overall the article was good, but the quote was taken out. When I asked why, I was given a shocking answer: “It made him look good, and that’s not what we want.”

Inquisitive Inquisitors: From Vorisite to Barronite: Why I Left Church Militant

 

[francisca.chapter3]

The problem with Voris as I see it is this: he may well exaggerate the negative in order to support his business. I don’t really remember ever seeing a positive “Vortex” episode – that is, one that doesn’t disparage some aspect of the hierarchy, the “Church of Nice,” or “lukewarm Catholics.

I usually watch Headlines and Download by Church Militant. The two are Michael Voris Teamwork.

The Vortex uses the typical hard language of Michael Voris, sometimes can be overly stated in a way much more than we prepare to hear.

Eventhough I prefer to watch Download and Headlines than Vortex, I believe Michael Voris is the driving force of the team and is the key person to push bravely the difficult cases that most investigative journalists would have given up. The work also requires certain skills such as latin and church language and most of all his experience as a former young seminarian who was exposed to things he heard and experience first hand from the inside makes him the man for the job.

 

[TheLittleLady]

most of all his experience as a former young seminarian who was exposed to things he heard and experience first hand from the inside

makes him an expert on the things he heard and experienced.

There is not a “franchise model” for seminaries. Each nation, each Diocese, has a different process. Each seminary has their own curriculum, culture, instructors, etc. That one seminary will change over the years.

One man’s experience is one man’s experience. Mr Voris does not seem to understand that he is not an expert on every seminary across the nation, nor around the world.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

I did not say he is a seminary expert

I am saying his background as a former seminarian, he was also exposed to gay lifestyle before, and was one of them, plus his life time work as journalist makes him the right person for the job

 

[Uriel1]

When has he called Martin “unchaste”?

1. He calls him a “homosexualist”

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

It’s a sad thing what Bishop Vignaron did to his pastor.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I usually watch Headlines and Download by Church Militant. The two are Michael Voris Teamwork.

The Vortex uses the typical hard language of Michael Voris, sometimes can be overly stated in a way much more than we prepare to hear.

I, aslo when watching ChurchMilitant prefer Headlines and the Download. Sometimes the Vortex is a little difficult to hear. Headlines can be occasionally difficult also.

Eventhough I prefer to watch Download and Headlines than Vortex, I believe Michael Voris is the driving force of the team and is the key person to push bravely the difficult cases that most investigative journalists would have given up.

This I agree with also. As I said in my earlier post about listening to Al Kresta (who is very good) on EWTN, he and a guest were discussing problems in the Church. They were saying very similar things about the situation in the Church today that you hear on ChurchMilitant. They just did not seem to have a drive behind them. It was a very, “yep, there is a problem” discussion.

Michael Voris and his team seem to not only want to discuss the problems in the Church today as a news media but, I believe, are hoping that as the laity come to understand the seriousness of the situation and the souls that are at stake (which could be our families), will step up pray and speak out also.

 

[Finn]

Have you read Scott Hahn’s classic “Hail Holy Queen?” That book helped me so much when I was a young Catholic, in those first years after Conversion. That book did not once talk about the marital sexual morals of the Church.

No, I haven’t read it and nor am I claiming that all Catholic books need to deal with such subject matter.

I’m stating that Fr. Martin has centred his ministry in an area where he assiduously avoids affirming key Church teachings. He does this because he holds different beliefs - to the extent that when asked, he publically refuses to affirm Church teachings and expresses a desire to change them.

This makes him a danger to those he claims to minister to, as he does not deal in the fullness of truth. You seem very keen to recommend his works and extremely quick to dismiss genuine criticism (based on source, rather than content) so I’ll ask you again: do you genuinely think that Fr. Martin’s beliefs and teachings on sexuality are in alignment with the Church’s?

 

[TheLittleLady]

He does this because he holds different beliefs - to the extent that when asked, he publically refuses to affirm Church teachings

If you could please cite your source, I’d appreciate it.

Having read much of his work, his catechesis is excellent. I recommend his book “The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything” to everyone.

do you genuinely think that Fr. Martin’s beliefs and teachings on sexuality are in alignment with the Church’s?

As I have said over and over and over, I have never read one word of Fr Martin’s catechesis that were contrary to Church teachings

 

[Finn]

He does this because he holds different beliefs - to the extent that when asked, he publically refuses to affirm Church teachings

Jonathan Merritt’s RNS interview - refer to Merritt’s question as to whether Fr. Martin will affirm and agree with the teachings of the CCC. This Vatican adviser is moving Catholics toward LGBT inclusion

As I have said over and over and over, I have never read one word of Fr Martin’s catechesis that were contrary to Church teachings

You’ve read and are recommending Building a Bridge? Doesn’t this book deal with Fr. Martin’s objection to the wording of the CCC? His direct opposition to the teaching of the Church that uses the words ‘objectively disordered’?