Should Wicca be illegal?

[Confiteor_Deo]

There’s your first mistake. You’re confusing Wicca/Neopaganism with Satan worship. Wicca may not be Christianity… but it’s not Satanism either.

I didn’t say that they worship Satan. I said that wicca is a subset of witchcraft which is an interaction with the devil since he will deceive those who do witchcraft or give them the future/empower their spells. They are interacting with the devil through witchcraft even if they don’t realize it.

 

[porthos11]

I didn’t say that they worship Satan. I said that wicca is a subset of witchcraft which is an interaction with the devil since he will deceive those who do witchcraft or give them the future/empower their spells. They are interacting with the devil through witchcraft even if they don’t realize it.

That does not justify throwing them in jail.

 

[QuestLove]

Should it?

The Bible is filled with references to how awful Witchcraft is, and “Wiccans” are basically modern day witches.

While “Thou shallt not suffer a witch to live” only applied to the ancient Hebrews, should there be any state action against Wicca, spell-books etc?

I would say NO despite my feelings about Wicca.

The state or government is not a religious body, so they would approach it from a secular point of view.
Even if Wicca was made illegal, how would you punish the practioners? fines or serving time.
Is it worth the money it would take to punish such a crime?
Why is it in the State’s interest to make this illegal?
What right would I have to tell someone the religion the practice is illegal, if they are not causing mental or bodily harm to anyone?

 

[Medawlinno]

wicca is a subset of witchcraft which is an interaction with the devil since he will deceive those who do witchcraft or give them the future/empower their spells. They are interacting with the devil through witchcraft even if they don’t realize it.

To me that’s a bit like saying if you pray for world peace/harmony, you’re interacting with the Buddha even though you’re not aware of it.

The Judeo-Christian concept of Satan will no more deceive or interact with a Wiccan than with a practitioner of Shinto or Native American/First Nations beliefs or whatever other non-Judeo-Christian religion you name.

 

[Peter_J]

I have seen them in Barnes and Noble buying their spellbooks.

Is there nothing they won’t stoop to?

 

[porthos11]

Is there nothing they won’t stoop to?

Exactly.

Barnes and Noble indeed.

 

[QuestLove]

Is there nothing they won’t stoop to?

 

[Crusaderbear]

Expert - a former drip under pressure…where is a plumber when ya need one?

Anything outlawed does not go away, it goes into hiding. The dark places are where evil resides. You are not blocking satan when you outlaw ideas, you are enabling him. You close your mind and society to something, it closes its mind to you. Everything spirals into the abyss from there. It’s the 21st Century, can’t we at least act like we have grown up some?

Sorry for the rant - I would like to think we Catholics are better than Monty Pythons famous witch dunking scene…

Forgive me if I sound crass.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Your quote is about evil in general, not necessarily the practice of false religions, which is tied to the search for truth.
…

Public order is where the line is drawn.

Pope Pius IX condemned complete religious freedom as well.

Pius IX, (December 8, 1864): (The following are condemned propositions.)

no. 77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.

no. 78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.

no. 79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism.7

Thomas Storck from EWTN explains this about Dignitatis Humanæ

What about the repeated declarations in about religious freedom as a personal human right? The Council proclaims, I think, an abstract human right, but a right that is not necessarily fully applicable in any given circumstance or place. Because of the “dignity of the human person” man does indeed have a right to religious liberty, in fact, by giving us a free will God has necessarily given us a kind of religious liberty, including the liberty to err. But this does not mean that this liberty may be exercised without reference to anything else. There are many rights that are contingent upon circumstances. Man, for example, has a right to marry. But what of those who are impotent or who cannot find anyone to marry? The right is a right in the abstract and not necessarily in any given concrete situation. Furthermore, even in a Catholic confessional state there is a certain religious liberty, that is, a liberty to privately exercise one’s non-Catholic faith, to meet corporately but privately with one’s co-religionists. This is a real liberty, occasioned by the “dignity of the human person,” but also restricted within “the just requirements of public order.”…

states, as I quoted above, that it “leaves intact the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of . . . societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ.” The moral duty of societies toward the true faith and Church, however, is precisely those propositions found in the traditional papal teaching supposedly at variance with . In other words, if an interpretation of the declaration is insisted upon that conflicts with Gregory XVI, Pius IX, <et al,> then conflicts with itself, for, as I just quoted, the earlier teaching, far from being changed, is explicitly left intact.

The complete article from EWTN, from which I got both quotes, can be read here. Wiccans should not be allowed to publicly practice their faith or preach it.

 

[porthos11]

Pope Pius IX condemned complete religious freedom as well.

Thomas Storck from EWTN explains this about Dignitatis Humanæ

The complete article from EWTN, from which I got both quotes, can be read here. Wiccans should not be allowed to publicly practice their faith or preach it.

I see nothing there that allows you to jail Wiccans, which is pretty much what needs to be done if it’s made illegal.

Dignitatis humanae is clear and does not need a lot of doublespeak. No one is denying the state’s obligations towards the Catholic faith, even of those obligations are not met. This does not contradict the right towards religious liberty. Favouring the Catholic faith does not mandate the persecution of religious minorities.

Wiccans do not disturb the public order. They should therefore be left in peace. Thus says the Catholic Church.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I see nothing there that allows you to jail Wiccans, which is pretty much what needs to be done if it’s made illegal.

Dignitatis humanae is clear and does not need a lot of doublespeak. No one is denying the state’s obligations towards the Catholic faith, even of those obligations are not met. This does not contradict the right towards religious liberty. Favouring the Catholic faith does not mandate the persecution of religious minorities.

Wiccans do not disturb the public order. They should therefore be left in peace. Thus says the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church also says what Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII said. The Second Vatican Council’s Dignitatis Humanæ wasn’t a novel teaching, but states therein that it is in compliance with the traditional teaching of the Church regarding religious liberty as was taught by the previous Holy Fathers. As long as they don’t practice publicly or preach, they are allowed to live in their error as they wish.

Wiccans do disrupt the public order since witchcraft is very dangerous and this would be especially true in a Catholic nation in which the proselytizing or public practice of a different religion could cause problems. They endanger the salvation of others and spread false teachings, which can’t be tolerated and must be stopped for the sake of the salvation of souls. However, some circumstances may make the prohibition of certain religions unwise and so I don’t advocate for it as an absolute.

 

[Peter_J]

Thomas Storck from EWTN explains this about Dignitatis Humanæ

I read the quotation from Thomas Storck. I cannot see how he supports the claim that “wicca should be outlawed and all of their books should be censored” … but it wouldn’t really matter if he did. Being hired by EWTN does not make a person infallible – if it did then we would have a *lot *of infallible people.

 

[porthos11]

The Catholic Church also says what Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII said. The Second Vatican Council’s Dignitatis Humanæ wasn’t a novel teaching, but states therein that it is in compliance with the traditional teaching of the Church regarding religious liberty as was taught by the previous Holy Fathers. As long as they don’t practice publicly or preach, they are allowed to live in their error as they wish.

Wiccans do disrupt the public order since witchcraft is very dangerous and this would be especially true in a Catholic nation in which the proselytizing or public practice of a different religion could cause problems. They endanger the salvation of others and spread false teachings, which can’t be tolerated and must be stopped for the sake of the salvation of souls. However, some circumstances may make the prohibition of certain religions unwise and so I don’t advocate for it as an absolute.

That’s right. Dignitatis Humanae affirms traditional teaching while upholding a basic human right. Moral freedom is not the same as civil freedom, and Dignitatis humanae insists the civil freedom of every man to practice his religion, even if false, within the limits of public order. It does not render him morally free to do the same, which is why heresy remains wrong. But the State cannot and should not stop a person from falling into that error.

Endangering the salvation of others does not disrupt the public order. Otherwise, you should be arresting JW’s and Mormons too.

Once they begin sacrificing virgins or stealing pet cats for ritual slaughter, that’s another story. Even the JW practice of refusing blood can be argued as crossing the line of public order. But outside of that, you’re just advocating religious persecution, something the Church condemns wholesale.

 

[HelenRose]

Should it?

The Bible is filled with references to how awful Witchcraft is, and “Wiccans” are basically modern day witches.

While “Thou shallt not suffer a witch to live” only applied to the ancient Hebrews, should there be any state action against Wicca, spell-books etc?

Of course not. I want religious freedom for me. I can’t have that and deny it for others.

 

[TheAtheist]

I find this thread to be absolutely interesting - probably because I lack the…cultural background… when it comes to this debate over Wicca.

One of the ideas often purported by the “New” Atheists is that a much more, shall we say “strident,” tone is necessary to defend what they often feel to be the erosion of Liberty against a “tidal wave of unreason, superstition, and barbarism” of which censorship tends to be of the highest concern.

See: Charlie Hebdo

When i question them about whether or not they are perhaps doing a little “ad reductio absurdum” regarding the positioning of religious belief as an originating point to that so-called “tidal wave” - i’m often greeted by I guess you can call the “party-line”

One of which tends to be: "These people are only Conciliatory/Kind and speak of Democracy and Rights and Respect for Others Beliefs so long as their particular Religion isn’t in Power.

The moment you gave any one of them a stranglehold over the culture of a nation → we’ll be First on the Chopping Block followed by whatever other minority religions that happens to violate their own internal codes."

It seems, at least from this thread, that some Catholics fit right into that Myopic viewpoint of the New Atheists.

And thankfully the rest of you don’t.

 

[TheAtheist]

To those who feel that the Wiccans are such a threat

(Pardon I might disagree with you on that, given that the most current round of violence in Paris has me focused on those who might actually mean me physical harm)…

Why stop there?

Why not make rules for them that they be required to have a Sign on them - like a Symbol to demarcate them as being Wiccans from the rest of the population. After all, if they have a pernicious evil influence, perish the thought that an unknowing child should encounter them and be affected?

Why stop at that?

Why not for the sake of the public good, force them to live in allocated region of a city or country where they wouldn’t be allowed to Leave - that way we can reduce All contact with this population of people.

You know what - we could go further!

Why not have public debates within these umm… lets call them “safe zones” where you can have a member of your Church debate some Wiccan and require that person to take a dive during the debate - in order to erode the false belief of the population…

…and we can much much much further than that…

 

[SuperLuigi]

Should it?

The Bible is filled with references to how awful Witchcraft is, and “Wiccans” are basically modern day witches.

While “Thou shallt not suffer a witch to live” only applied to the ancient Hebrews, should there be any state action against Wicca, spell-books etc?

No religion should be illegal. The Catholic Church has been fairly outspoken compared to other religions about freedom of religion, especially given what is happening in America.

It doesn’t mean those other faiths are right/true, it’s just a principle that tends to serve secular society better as opposed to some kind of totalitarian control.

Also, please note that Catholics follow the New Testament. If you have a problem with the “ancient Hebrews” please talk to the Jews, but I would imagine most of them would tell you the same thing I have.

 

[masuwerte]

You won’t have freedom of religion until you allow people to leave.

 

[SuperLuigi]

To those who feel that the Wiccans are such a threat

(Pardon I might disagree with you on that, given that the most current round of violence in Paris has me focused on those who might actually mean me physical harm)…

Why stop there?

Why not make rules for them that they be required to have a Sign on them - like a Symbol to demarcate them as being Wiccans from the rest of the population. After all, if they have a pernicious evil influence, perish the thought that an unknowing child should encounter them and be affected?

Why stop at that?

Why not for the sake of the public good, force them to live in allocated region of a city or country where they wouldn’t be allowed to Leave - that way we can reduce All contact with this population of people.

You know what - we could go further!

Why not have public debates within these umm… lets call them “safe zones” where you can have a member of your Church debate some Wiccan and require that person to take a dive during the debate - in order to erode the false belief of the population…

…and we can much much much further than that…

That’s the danger of giving the government too much power.

 

[Padres1969]

You won’t have freedom of religion until you allow people to leave.

Care to elaborate?