Should Women Wear Veils In Church

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Rogerteder

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I just finished reading a paper by Bob Sungenis on head coverings for women in Church. The purpose of the paper was to determine whether the new (1983 code) code of canon law did away with the mandate, for women, to wear a veil in church. Sungenis concludes that the law is still in force for women to wear viels in Church.

I’ll summarize his arguments (he can be a little long winded as you may know).
  1. The new code does state that, in general, that the 1917 code is abrogated.
  2. The new code states that if the new code does not specifically mention the termination of a law, of the old code, it may not necessarily be abrogated.
  3. The new code specifically says that if a law has been practiced for over 100 years that the law is still in effect unless it is specifically mentioned to no longer be in force.
  4. The new code does not specifically mention head coverings.
  5. Head coverings, for women, in Church have been a law for roughly 1,970 some years. They have been required in scripture(by Saint Paul), and by tons of Church Fathers (Sungenis quotes a bunch of them). Also, by “tons” of Popes in which Sungenis quotes.
  6. There was a passing, ambiguous statement by Paul VI that may have seemed to indicate that head coverings were null and void. The topic of the Pope’s letter was not head coverings, nor did his statement specifically abrogate head coverings.
Conclusion: Sungenis asserts since head coverings have never been specifically terminated, and have been in practice for 1,970(and more) that they are still required for women to wear in church.

Id be interested in your thoughts?
 
Where’s the article? I’d like to see how he came up with the 100-year thing - I’ve never heard anyone else argue that one. And if the cited article is true - that it never WAS part of Canon Law until 1917, then Sungenis is wrong.
 
LilyM said:
Where’s the article? I’d like to see how he came up with the 100-year thing - I’ve never heard anyone else argue that one. And if the cited article is true - that it never WAS part of Canon Law until 1917, then Sungenis is wrong.
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It was definitley in the 1917 code. Who said it wasnt?

Anyway, Sungenis argues that canon 26 of the new code, regarding customs, states that if a custom is practiced for over 100 years it has bcome a law in itself. If it is not speciifically abrogated then it is still in force, according to the 1983 code. The article is right on the front page of his web site.
 
I do not understand why some people focus on what women should be wearing. What about what men should be wearing? I’d wear a veil in mass if the men did. It might sound like a stupid statement but every now and again I hear people keep referring to women should be this and that and wear this etc. But I don’t see a lot of the same views applied to men.

Personally speaking I am not interested nor believe women should have to wear veils to mass. It has nothing to do with my faith in Christ nor affect my reverence and love for him. It doesn’t make me more pious.
 
Rogerteder said:
It was definitley in the 1917 code. Who said it wasnt?

Anyway, Sungenis argues that canon 26 of the new code, regarding customs, states that if a custom is practiced for over 100 years it has bcome a law in itself. If it is not speciifically abrogated then it is still in force, according to the 1983 code. The article is right on the front page of his web site.
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I never said it wasn’t - the article points out that it wasn’t in any code BEFORE 1917.

As for ‘custom’, canon 25 defines which customs are to be retained:

“Can. 25 No custom obtains the force of law unless it has been observed *with the intention of introducing a law *by a community capable at least of receiving law.”

So it is clear at least that not all custom, however ancient and venerable, attains the force of law merely by being ancient custom. 🤷

And I think the following statement from Part 4 of Inter Insigniores, best expresses the mind of the Vatican (or at least the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), which after all is the final arbiter of interpretation of Canon law:

“these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on their head (1 Cor 11:2-16); such requirements **no longer have a normative value ** …”

If the CDF says it has “no normative value” (ie isn’t a general norm or rule) and is a “disciplinary practice of minor importance”, it’s fairly safe to presume it ISN’T of sufficient import to override the 1983 Code of Canon Law.
 
They are not required to wear veils in Church, of course not. It sure probably could be part of cultural references at the time but that doesn’t negate the reason behind the action. The respect shown to Angels at the Liturgy, which can be shown with other actions such as wearing mantillas, hats, long hair, or some other acknowledgment of their presence. (I do not know what but maybe someone who doesn’t wear a headcovering can help out)

It just is good and holy to do so, that is what Scripture recommends because of the Angels. Just like kneeling in the Presence of Christ, “every knee shall bend”.
Eastern Catholics stand and that is a different way of showing the same respect.

It doesn’t make a woman bad to not do so but it is better to do and it is a like kneeling for Christ. It is an act of humility and submitting to the truth of the presence of Angels and the dignity of women.

These days there are many women who want to be men and look up to men as some sort of ideal so they reject their role as women as they have lost respect for themselves, modern feminists. Who exhibit a sort of self hatred which only is fulfilled by rejecting womanly things and trying to be like men. This influences many of our cultures thinking and is expressed in attitudes throughout our culture. The Blessed Mother is not held up as someone of value to imitate to many these days.

In that it is holy for a woman to do so, it is shameful for a man to do so and wrong for a man in the congregation to wear a headcovering, this is reserved for women to do out of their respect for the Angels.

Just like kneeling, no one is forced to do so and we shouldn’t force anyone to do what they do not want to do or what is expressed in a different way.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Maybe I should have come up with the answer every Catholic should say…

Of course, every woman should wear a veil in Church.

But, of course they are not required to and shouldn’t be looked down upon for not wearing a veil.

There simple and true, why discuss it?.. just encourage women to do what they should do? Men should acting like men, most act like castrated pagans.
Priests should act like Men of Christ
Bishops as shephards.
It doesn’t mean we always do what we should do.
Scylla
 
Sungenis misses the fact that in 1917 it ceased to be a custom and became a law. It was then abrogated in 1983 and cannot falll under the canon governing custom because it was, in fact, a law.

Also, if he makes the case that women are bound to wear veils, then men and women are also bound to sit separately in church because that was a canon of 1917 as well. Except people sat together for decades after 1917…were they all sinners? Or did the law no longer apply?
 
kyria said:
I do not understand why some people focus on what women should be wearing. What about what men should be wearing? I’d wear a veil in mass if the men did. It might sound like a stupid statement but every now and again I hear people keep referring to women should be this and that and wear this etc. But I don’t see a lot of the same views applied to men.

Personally speaking I am not interested nor believe women should have to wear veils to mass. It has nothing to do with my faith in Christ nor affect my reverence and love for him. It doesn’t make me more pious.
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Firstly: God bless you…secondly: I hope your not talking about equality…because its not about that… men and women do dress differently as it should be
women should were veils in the presence of the Lord…just as men uncover their heads in the presence of the Lord…

and thirdly: you said it has nothing to do with faith in Christ…well if you truly believe…then meditate…should you not humble yourself as we all should…a great sign reverance and love of the Lord is a veil…a sign that unfortunatly men don’t have
(other than dresing well for church…but everyone should do that)
 
interesting that in judaism the men are required to wear the head covering and the women are not. if the women choose to, they may, but it is not usually a veil.
 
deborahaz said:
interesting that in judaism the men are required to wear the head covering and the women are not. if the women choose to, they may, but it is not usually a veil.
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yea well were talking about Christianity…more specifically Catholicism(Sp?)
 
for your information i was responding to post #5 by kyria. maybe you didn’t read that one.

don’t be so sanctimonious!!
 
I’m so sorry if i offended you truly truly sorry…i just didn’t want it to become a matter of
“they don’t do it so we don’t have to…type of thing”

and i don’t really know if you were offended because i don’t know what the word sanctimonious!! means 😛
 
sancte_joseph said:
Firstly: God bless you…secondly: I hope your not talking about equality…because its not about that… men and women do dress differently as it should be
women should were veils in the presence of the Lord…just as men uncover their heads in the presence of the Lord…

and thirdly: you said it has nothing to do with faith in Christ…well if you truly believe…then meditate…should you not humble yourself as we all should…a great sign reverance and love of the Lord is a veil…a sign that unfortunatly men don’t have
(other than dresing well for church…but everyone should do that)
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God Bless you too. For me my heart is a veil of reverence, not my head. I do understand where you are coming from, however although men cannot wear veils (well I guess you could if you wanted too!), I do find it annoying that there seems to be a lot more focus on women appearing reverent and pious, and in being faithful and their dress culture, but very little discussion or reference to men. These attributes are not just a woman’s domain, but many times I find people making reference to scripture as to how a women should dress, act and behave, but I am not seeing the same focus directed to the male species, so when I see threads about woman’s dress sense at mass, I have to say I get my hackles up a bit.

I do humble myself, and I have much love and reverence to the Lord, but I can do that in many other ways and I do. I am a different breed I admit. I prefer to see love, reverence and humility showing in people’s faces and works towards others, not on their head. Because via the former I can see your heart, but anyone can put a lace cloth on their head, doesn’t show to me you have love, reverence and humility.

Regards,
 
kyria, i have always heard the saying just because you park your car in a garage doesn’t make you a mechanic (or something like that). the same goes for people who sit in church. just because they attend mass every week doesn’t necessarily make them a christian.

i have known people who want to appear very pious, but they are really putting on a show for others. someone can pray the rosary every day and attend mass every day and wear a veil and go through all the motions, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are more pious than someone isn’t able to make it to mass everyday, or pray the rosary, or wear a veil. you are right,
it is in your heart. i think for the older women, they like to wear the veil because when they were growing up in the church it was expected. it doesn’t bother me to see women wearing a veil. i think it is supposed to be like you are showing reverence or submitting to God. if my church would require us to wear a veil, i would have no problem with it, but right now i know that i show reverence and respect while i am present in church.
 
a reply to sancte joseph:

no, i was just defending my post. kyria was addressing the way we focus on how women dress and i was simply putting in some trivia because she said that no one cares about how the men dress.

i see you are a new member so i forgive you! no offense taken.
 
kyria said:
God Bless you too. For me my heart is a veil of reverence, not my head. your head is not a veil of reverance either…

I do understand where you are coming from, however although men cannot wear veils (well I guess you could if you wanted too!), I do find it annoying that there seems to be a lot more focus on women appearing reverent and piousWell i think this happens because women have been seen as the "attractive part in the species…by that i mean they are a cause of lust and distraction…(of course don’t get me wrong men can be that too!) but the point stands that in todays world what can distinct your church attire from your “club” attire, These attributes are not just a woman’s domain, but many times I find people making reference to scripture as to how a women should dress, act and behave, but I am not seeing the same focus directed to the male species ha male speciesso when I see threads about woman’s dress sense at mass, I have to say I get my hackles up a bit.

ok…help me understand better you don’t like it when they talk more about how women should dress right…ok then what if the shoe was on the other foot and men where the topic of these disscussion

WOULD YOU WERE A VEIL???

I do humble myself, and I have much love and reverence to the Lord, but I can do that in many other ways and I do.

But why are you missing a chance to humble your self before the Lord with a veil…the veil shows to the Lord (who already knows everything) your reverance…it shows whats in your heart…
BASICLY>>>wear a veil as an exterior sign to the interior
because if you aren’t reverand and humble already…the veil does you no good…

I am a different breed I admit. I prefer to see love, reverence and humility showing in people’s faces and works towards others, not on their head. Because via the former I can see your heart, but anyone can put a lace cloth on their head, doesn’t show to me you have love, reverence and humility.
Well the veil is not for YOU to see somerthing in others…that (as you said) they might not have
and as i said before wear a veil if your heart is reverand and humble…if not then don’t wear it…because y

PS IM JUST USING YOU IN GENERAL TO WOMEN NOT JUST YOU 🙂

Regards,
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sancte_joseph:
To wear or not to wear a veil is a personal choice, it should not be something that we think others should be wearing.

If you think by me not wearing a veil is me missing out on an opportunity to humble myself before the Lord, then you assume a lot about me and my humility and my reverence.
 
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