Should you only forgive those who asks for it?

[R_C]

And by the way, hell is not a torture chamber. Two millennia (roughly speaking) of Christian theology have taught us that the state of “hell” is a state of eternal separation from God in which the soul (unlike in this life) is fully aware of God (that is, the soul can “see” God, its infinite beauty, wisdom, justice, mercy, and above all else the soul can experience the infinite love that God has for them despite their fall) but the soul has rejected God with a definite choice. The sudden awareness of what has taken place, of what has been rejected, causes the soul to enter a state of great despair which we call “hell”, and the soul, unable to repent (for eternity is outside of time), will respond by hating God and wishing to be separated from His sight…but since God is infinite, the torment is never-ending…and is a self-inflicted torment.

This is our Sacred Tradition, and it is a wonderful one, too, because it teaches that (a) God loves unconditionally and will always forgive a penitent soul and (b) we choose to remain with God eternally by loving Him, and the only way to show Him our love is in how we treat one another: “whatever you do to the smallest of your brothers, you have done to me”.

 

[Lochias]

Actually, people chose this all the time.

People reject goodness all the time in exchange for anxiety, despair, and vicious circles of disordered cravings that sometimes end in very sorrowful events and can even lead to death. We have addictions of all kinds, one of the top being addiction to pornography.

Why do people chose this, rather than following a different path that leads to harmony and peace that is both external and internal? It is a mystery of the human mind.

And by the way, hell is not a torture chamber. Two millennia (roughly speaking) of Christian theology have taught us that the state of “hell” is a state of eternal separation from God in which the soul (unlike in this life) is fully aware of God (that is, the soul can “see” God, its infinite beauty, wisdom, justice, mercy, and above all else the soul can experience the infinite love that God has for them despite their fall) but the soul has rejected God with a definite choice. The sudden awareness of what has taken place, of what has been rejected, causes the soul to enter a state of great despair which we call “hell”, and the soul, unable to repent (for eternity is outside of time), will respond by hating God and wishing to be separated from His sight…but since God is infinite, the torment is never-ending…and is a self-inflicted torment.

This is our Sacred Tradition, and it is a wonderful one, too, because it teaches that (a) God loves unconditionally and will always forgive a penitent soul and (b) we choose to remain with God eternally by loving Him, and the only way to show Him our love is in how we treat one another: “whatever you do to the smallest of your brothers, you have done to me”.

Good answers, both.

Sophion, methinks you need to take a step back and read the Catechism, front-to-back, if you haven’t already. If you already have, read it again, then speak with a priest…you’ve got a ton of misconceptions and falsehoods you’ve bought into about the Catholic faith, and no amount of discussion here will help you unless you’re willing to learn the truths about what you’re debating, regardless of whether or not you agree with them.

 

[R_C]

Thanks, Lochias. One more to go, though

how do you know that? are you god?

anyway whether or not a person accepted it, if he was forgiven then he is forgiven. right?

forgiveness is something that is released. not something that is handed from one person to another.

If we argue and I approach you and tell you: “I forgive you, brother, come give me a hug” and you react by pushing me aside and running away screaming that you hate me, I don’t see how that changed things on your side. I mean, I still love you, forgave you indeed, and await your repentance and return…but if you reject my forgiveness and friendship, your hatred towards me will remain within you and you will never approach me no matter how much I try to approach you.

And we know because God has been speaking to us consistently throughout time, more openly and directly through Christ, and He revealed us something that is self-evident: God, by definition a perfect being, the fullness of goodness and mercy, cannot do something that would indicate imperfect goodness or imperfect mercy. By telling us to “forgive not seven times, but seventy times seven or as many times as we want God to forgive us” Christ taught us that God is always ready to forgive, because His fatherly love is unconditional.

 

[sophion]

If we argue and I approach you and tell you: “I forgive you, brother, come give me a hug” and you react by pushing me aside and running away screaming that you hate me, I don’t see how that changed things on your side. I mean, I still love you, forgave you indeed, and await your repentance and return…but if you reject my forgiveness and friendship, your hatred towards me will remain within you and you will never approach me no matter how much I try to approach you.

but the person who ran away is still forgiven, right?

 

[The_Bucket]

R_C has done a fantastic job of explaining the absurdity of the human mind. Here we have an all-powerful and all-loving God who wants only that the creatures He created to accept His love. The only catch is that we have to love Him willingly because what’s the point of creating automatons? Yet we see throughout human history that man has consistently rejected God and done so to his own detriment. We constantly choose ourselves over God and our fellow man. We constantly choose to indulge in the material and give a quick nod to the importance of the spiritual instead of flipping that on its head and indulging in the spiritual and only briefly acknowledging the temporal and transient need for a limited number of material possessions.

It makes sense then that we would also reject God’s forgiveness and retreat into ourselves for whatever reason. I know I’m plenty guilty of that in my life. My hope is that such a mindset will not rear its head when it is time for my life on Earth to end.

 

[sophion]

Actually, people chose this all the time.

People reject goodness all the time in exchange for anxiety, despair, and vicious circles of disordered cravings that sometimes end in very sorrowful events and can even lead to death. We have addictions of all kinds, one of the top being addiction to pornography.

Why do people chose this, rather than following a different path that leads to harmony and peace that is both external and internal? It is a mystery of the human mind.

addiction? people succomb to addiction because it gives them pleasure.

hell is supposedly devoid of all forms of pleasure, right? so why would anyone choose that if they are absolutely sure it really exists?

 

[R_C]

but the person who ran away is still forgiven, right?

Forgiveness, like friendship, is a two-way act.

I may be willing to forgive you and to be your friend, but if you are not, then are you truly forgiven?

God’s love is unconditional, meaning that no matter what we do, He does not cease to love us and, mystically speaking, has His hand extended as a sign of forgiveness. If we extend ours to Him by repenting of the evil done and choosing to live in friendship with Him, we are truly forgiven.

 

[Lochias]

but the person who ran away is still forgiven, right?

Only in the sense that that person is free to come back to God anytime he or she chose. If that person runs from God, God isn’t going to force the issue.

I have forgiven an ex-girlfriend of mine for rather grievous hurt done to me about two years ago, but she wasn’t interested in continuing any sort of dialogue or relationship.

Does me saying and meaning “I forgive you” magically make her my friend and confidante again?

 

[Lochias]

addiction? people succomb to addiction because it gives them pleasure.

This is a gross misunderstanding of how addiction can wreck a life due to bad choices at the outset. People know that the little bit of pleasure they might gain is balanced by a lifetime of trouble in return.

If you’re going to keep going with this kind of nonsense, I will need to place you on my ignore list in order to remain charitable…but, know that I forgive you anyway.

Why, indeed? Seems like there might be another entity out there who’s trying to fool people away from choosing what’s good and right, eh?

 

[R_C]

addiction? people succomb to addiction because it gives them pleasure.

hell is supposedly devoid of all forms of pleasure, right? so why would anyone choose that if they are absolutely sure it really exists?

Pleasure? Please. It is a temporary, short pleasure, followed by a “hell” of anxiety, dissatisfaction, unending, increasing cravings.

Hell is simply a place in which the soul who chose to reject God is unable to experience the disordered “pleasures” of the flesh yet is fully aware of the true, infinite bliss that is fully spiritual, and which he has renounced to.

People chose it because they refuse to believe that the true joy is spiritual, and are deceived into thinking that only the flesh grants pleasure. And we are not only talking about sexual pleasure: we are also talking of other sensual pleasures like vanity, pride, power…all things that are utterly empty because have no spiritual substance, and on the other side of this life, once the flesh returns to dust, we don’t bring with us any of that.

 

[JRKH]

next question…

does your god forgive everyone, regardless of their request or lack thereof?

God forgives those who repent…That is the crucial underlying need…not an act of “requesting” forgiveness.

Peace
James

 

[sophion]

Only in the sense that that person is free to come back to God anytime he or she chose. If that person runs from God, God isn’t going to force the issue.

I have forgiven an ex-girlfriend of mine for rather grievous hurt done to me about two years ago, but she wasn’t interested in continuing any sort of dialogue or relationship.

Does me saying and meaning “I forgive you” magically make her my friend and confidante again?

Lets review what it means to ‘forgive’:

*1:
a : to give up resentment of or claim to requital for
b : to grant relief from payment of
2:
to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon <forgive one’s enemies> *

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive

with your ex-girlfriend. if you had truly forgiven her then:

1. you no longer desire to make her pay for what she’s done to you.
2. you no longer feel resentment against her.

correct?

 

[sophion]

God forgives those who repent…That is the crucial underlying need…not an act of “requesting” forgiveness.

Peace
James

so humans should forgive everyone whether they repent or not.

but god only forgives those who repents.

correct?

 

[R_C]

if you had truly forgiven her then:

1. you no longer desire to make her pay for what she’s done to you.
2. you no longer feel resentment against her.

correct?

May I step in

Yes, but when she sees me and sees that I love her like before and wish to be with her, she will experience a mix of anger and sorrow because she, on the other hand, rejects my love and my forgiveness.

And you must remember that human love is liable to end, while the soul’s love for God is eternal by its very nature, so assume in this case the girlfriend is really in love with me to the point that she cannot live without me, yet she chooses to reject my forgiveness and my love. Imagine how horrible she feels inside.

 

[R_C]

so humans should forgive everyone whether they repent or not.

but god only forgives those who repents.

correct?

Yes, because with God with have a relationship Creator-creature, or, rather, Father-children, but between ourselves we have a relationship brother-brother.

 

[sophion]

Pleasure? Please. It is a temporary, short pleasure, followed by a “hell” of anxiety, dissatisfaction, unending, increasing cravings.

however short it is, its still pleasure.

People chose it because they refuse to believe that the true joy is spiritual, and are deceived into thinking that only the flesh grants pleasure.

so people choose the pleasure. that proves my point.

people who are absolutely sure hell exists will not choose it unless they are insane.

look suicide bombers do it because they are absolutely sure its a guaranteed ticket to heaven! and then youll say they chose hell???

 

[JRKH]

The only question I have is:

Why would I still go to hell if I am in mortal sin if I pray and ask God for forgiveness today, but die on the way to confession tomorrow? I have been told many times on this forum that my prayer to God alone will not save me, even if I am truly sorry. Only confession would save me.

Your thoughts?

This is not how I understand the teaching…
Consider…If one repents and gets to confession - they sit or kneel before Christ (the priest acting “in persona Christi”)
If you repent but die before you are able to get to confession, you stand before Christ…(without the need of the priest acting in persona Christi).
So in that instant, at the point of death, you are standing in confession…repentant of your sins…Would Jesus NOT accept your true repentance?

Anyone who insists on the view that you relate above, simply does not understand the idea of confession.

Peace
James

 

[R_C]

First, don’t bring insane extremists into the picture, please. Their mind does not work in ordinary ways.

Back to your post, now.

Seriously? It’s like choosing to cross a huge desert in order to drink one bottle of cold soda halfway through… “however short it is, its still pleasure”

People cannot be absolutely sure hell exists simply because when people who know about hell tell them about it, they refuse to believe in it Their choice, to an extent, is made.

Indeed, people who know hell exists try their best not to end there Trust me, I’m working hard on it

People do not go by pleasure, that is called hedonism and is entirely flawed. People naturally chose what is better, and sometimes this means sorrow, but we gladly take the sufferings when we know this will benefit our brothers. Some, however, refuse to accept responsibility and chose what is wrong, for the sake of that “short pleasure”, often based on the flawed belief that either there is no afterlife or there is no such thing as hell.

 

[JRKH]

so humans should forgive everyone whether they repent or not.

but god only forgives those who repents.

correct?

You ask some really good questions.
I guess I need to rethink how I express this.

For ourselves forgiving each other…Pretty much - yes.
We are to forgive largely for our own good.
If we retain the negatives that go along with not forgiving, it is hurtful to our spiritual life.
We are told that we will be forgiven to the measure that we forgive. So it is in our own best interest to forgive.

The issue of God’s forgiveness is perhaps a bit more complicated and when we get into these things, terms like “forgiveness”, though we do use it in connection with God, might not be applicable in the same way.

In truth I guess we need to say that God forgave everybody everything through the cross of Jesus Christ. So then it is a matter of whether we choose to take advantage of that forgiveness by living in a state of grace or if we choose to reject that forgiveness by living in a state of sin. Thus - when we come to the point of death, we embrace that which we chose in life. To Live with God or to Live away from Him.

Peace
James

 

[R_C]

You ask some really good questions.

He does indeed!