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Lochias
Guest
Yes. Now answer my question, please: Does the fact that I forgive my ex-girlfriend mean that we are suddenly and magically friends and confidantes again?
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Lochias
Guest
And conversely, however pleasurable it is, it’s still short.
No. Catholics embrace the sufferings and trials of our time here on Earth out of love for God, not out of pleasure for the afterlife.
Many people are sick, spiritually speaking.
look suicide bombers do it because they are absolutely sure its a guaranteed ticket to heaven! and then youll say they chose hell???
This is a non-sequitor. Suicide bombers are deceived, and we also have no way to know if they go to Hell or not. We are not God.
A
Angelsflight
Guest
Thanks, James. Makes sense.
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sophion
Guest
fathers have more reason to be forgiving, compared to a brother.
a creator even more so. since he is responsible for how the creation behaves! like the gay people. you cant blame them for their homosexual acts. they were created with that kind of hunger! a lot of us do what we do because of what fate has handed to us:
- genes
- culture (like most of you here are catholic because you were born into it!)
- economic situation
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sophion
Guest
thank you.You ask some really good questions.
a minor question…we who are alive on earth right now…are we “living with God” or “living away from him”?
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sophion
Guest
no you are not.
this really boils down to: Why should you punish one you had already forgiven?
but if its really like this:
*so humans should forgive everyone whether they repent or not.
but god only forgives those who repents.*
then it implies that those people who do so are morally superior to God.
R
R_C
Guest
I totally agree on the first statement! However, a son owes a certain degree of respect to a father that places him on a lower level, while brothers are equal. I’m using sort of a vague language, but you know what I mean. Peers are called to forgive each others, but someone below (be it a soldier, a servant, or a son) is called to repent in order to experience the forgiveness of the one above…with the difference that the one above is actively pursuing the one below, not only by offering unconditional love and forgiveness upon repentance, but by seeking his repentance actively.
Homosexual is not the issue. The issue is chastity.
Homosexual and heterosexual experience the very same trial and bear the very same cross: to achieve self-mastery and control their inordinate desires. We can indeed blame both for their acts, but nobody would dare to blame them for their feelings and attractions…the issue is not the hunger, but how to control that hunger…and why it should be controlled. It’s not a mindless, blind mortification…it is rooted on the most precious and worthy reasons…and that is why many heterosexuals and homosexuals live wonderful lives in the Church following the path of chastity, and that is why many can embrace the life of celibacy openly and with great satisfaction.
And by the way, you don’t seem to be very knowledgeable about the demographics of the Catholic Church
All true (ok, let’s be politically correct, “practicing”) Catholics experienced a conversion at one point or another of their life, in which they found God, regardless of whether this meant converting from a non-Christian religion, joining the Church coming from another Christian community, or stepping forth from “non-practice” to “practice” of the Catholic faith. None of us is “Catholic” because we were born into it. I know plenty of people who do not want to have anything to do with the Church who were “born” Catholic, so to speak, but I do not know anybody who is a practicing Catholic and has been such since childhood without experiencing a conversion to a lesser or greater degree.
You have touched an interesting point: the responsibility of the Creator.
God did not make mindless robots, nor are we children who have not reached the age of reasons. God made us “in his image and likeness” in that he granted us humans the fundamental free will, the intelligence to learn and choose, and a conscience that, if well-formed, will lead us to clearly distinguish right from wrong and repel intrinsic evils.
Some theologians are not afraid to say that God, being omnipotent, by His very choice of giving humans free will voluntarily surrendered to some practical extent His omnipotence: that is, He can force a human to do His will, but He has chosen not to. Mystically, we can think of a lover who can force the loved one to fall in love, but chooses not to impose this on him/her, but rather grants him/her the freedom to look for Him, find Him, and spontaneously fall in love with Him.
And all of God’s faithful are literally in love with God. While a fellow religious brother or sister or a priest can provide a more clear example, I can personally tell you that I was most surprised to discover that you can literally fall in love with God just like you fall in love with a creature…a more sublime love, for it is fully spiritual without the limitations of the flesh.
Back to the point: by granting us the ability to choose and the intellect to discern our choices, God has given us a great responsibility: no longer children but adults, we are called to be responsible, for our actions can affect the lives of others, positively and adversely. Which is why Christ was eager to change the old “do not do unto others what you do not want them to do to you” into the new, proactive “do unto others as you want them to do unto you”, later expanded to “love one another like you love yourself”, and, breaking all boundaries of personal disagreement, “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, because if you only love those who love you, what merit is there in this?”.
But ultimately God is a perfectly responsible Father. Our life is, trust me, very brief, and justice is not of this world. When we step out of this world into eternity, the Divine Judge will show us all that there is such thing as justice: then evildoers who seemingly lived a nice life rejecting God will realize what they truly chose, and all innocents who suffered and died for no reason at all will find the joy and consolation that they had always been entitled to.
A great friend of God who spent her life doing His will for the benefit of many summarized this wonderfully:
Homosexual is not the issue. The issue is chastity.
Homosexual and heterosexual experience the very same trial and bear the very same cross: to achieve self-mastery and control their inordinate desires. We can indeed blame both for their acts, but nobody would dare to blame them for their feelings and attractions…the issue is not the hunger, but how to control that hunger…and why it should be controlled. It’s not a mindless, blind mortification…it is rooted on the most precious and worthy reasons…and that is why many heterosexuals and homosexuals live wonderful lives in the Church following the path of chastity, and that is why many can embrace the life of celibacy openly and with great satisfaction.
And by the way, you don’t seem to be very knowledgeable about the demographics of the Catholic Church
All true (ok, let’s be politically correct, “practicing”) Catholics experienced a conversion at one point or another of their life, in which they found God, regardless of whether this meant converting from a non-Christian religion, joining the Church coming from another Christian community, or stepping forth from “non-practice” to “practice” of the Catholic faith. None of us is “Catholic” because we were born into it. I know plenty of people who do not want to have anything to do with the Church who were “born” Catholic, so to speak, but I do not know anybody who is a practicing Catholic and has been such since childhood without experiencing a conversion to a lesser or greater degree.You have touched an interesting point: the responsibility of the Creator.
God did not make mindless robots, nor are we children who have not reached the age of reasons. God made us “in his image and likeness” in that he granted us humans the fundamental free will, the intelligence to learn and choose, and a conscience that, if well-formed, will lead us to clearly distinguish right from wrong and repel intrinsic evils.
Some theologians are not afraid to say that God, being omnipotent, by His very choice of giving humans free will voluntarily surrendered to some practical extent His omnipotence: that is, He can force a human to do His will, but He has chosen not to. Mystically, we can think of a lover who can force the loved one to fall in love, but chooses not to impose this on him/her, but rather grants him/her the freedom to look for Him, find Him, and spontaneously fall in love with Him.
And all of God’s faithful are literally in love with God. While a fellow religious brother or sister or a priest can provide a more clear example, I can personally tell you that I was most surprised to discover that you can literally fall in love with God just like you fall in love with a creature…a more sublime love, for it is fully spiritual without the limitations of the flesh.
Back to the point: by granting us the ability to choose and the intellect to discern our choices, God has given us a great responsibility: no longer children but adults, we are called to be responsible, for our actions can affect the lives of others, positively and adversely. Which is why Christ was eager to change the old “do not do unto others what you do not want them to do to you” into the new, proactive “do unto others as you want them to do unto you”, later expanded to “love one another like you love yourself”, and, breaking all boundaries of personal disagreement, “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, because if you only love those who love you, what merit is there in this?”.
But ultimately God is a perfectly responsible Father. Our life is, trust me, very brief, and justice is not of this world. When we step out of this world into eternity, the Divine Judge will show us all that there is such thing as justice: then evildoers who seemingly lived a nice life rejecting God will realize what they truly chose, and all innocents who suffered and died for no reason at all will find the joy and consolation that they had always been entitled to.
A great friend of God who spent her life doing His will for the benefit of many summarized this wonderfully:
To her Christ spoke these words in what the Church accepts as a private revelation (which we do not have to believe, if we don’t want to, but does not contain any doctrinal error):
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R_C
Guest
T
The_Bucket
Guest
I think this can be best encapsulated by the words of Fr. Larry Richards, who does a marvelous job of summarizing many aspects of our faith. In his preaching, Fr. Larry says that God will give us what we want most when we die. And for some of us, that’s Himself. For others, however, it’s themselves.
He’s a merciful and generous God. He gives us what we want and what we need. If we refuse to choose Him, He will not force Himself onto us. He will give us separation from Him for all eternity.
So that’s what we mean by forgiveness. We mean that God gives Himself and His grace to us and restores us to a spiritual state of perfection through Reconciliation. When we refuse to avail ourselves of this sacrament, we are rejecting God. Every moral action we make is either an acceptance of His love or a rejection of it. Period.
To your point about suicide bombers or others who do not know what waits for them… we can’t answer that question definitively. Some people lie to themselves. Some people spend their lives searching for the Truth but never find it. Some don’t care. I don’t have an answer as to what happens to them, though I have a gut feeling that those who were searching will find it in the end and those that lie to themselves will more often than not reject God’s mercy in the end and choose to live for eternity in their own shame and self-hatred.
Pride is an incredibly powerful thing. You probably know that some people choose to stay in addiction because the path to recovery is too steep and too embarrassing. The same goes for sin. Some people are obstinate because the path out requires acknowledging the sin, surrendering to God and accepting His love. That’s just too tall an order for people who are completely wrapped up in themselves. I should know because I was one of those people. I knew that God was real, I knew my childhood faith was correct but for years I lied to myself and fell further from Him because I was so ashamed of my own sin. At a certain point my faith in God was nearly completely gone, not because I doubted from some philosophical reason but because I NEEDED Him to be not real. Because if He was not real then I would have no reason to be ashamed.
The truth, of course, was that I needed to accept His love in order to break the bonds of shame. Not everyone gets to that point though. Some people remain in their sin and reject God because the world they construct for themselves “requires” it. I feel very sad for those people.
He’s a merciful and generous God. He gives us what we want and what we need. If we refuse to choose Him, He will not force Himself onto us. He will give us separation from Him for all eternity.
So that’s what we mean by forgiveness. We mean that God gives Himself and His grace to us and restores us to a spiritual state of perfection through Reconciliation. When we refuse to avail ourselves of this sacrament, we are rejecting God. Every moral action we make is either an acceptance of His love or a rejection of it. Period.
To your point about suicide bombers or others who do not know what waits for them… we can’t answer that question definitively. Some people lie to themselves. Some people spend their lives searching for the Truth but never find it. Some don’t care. I don’t have an answer as to what happens to them, though I have a gut feeling that those who were searching will find it in the end and those that lie to themselves will more often than not reject God’s mercy in the end and choose to live for eternity in their own shame and self-hatred.
Pride is an incredibly powerful thing. You probably know that some people choose to stay in addiction because the path to recovery is too steep and too embarrassing. The same goes for sin. Some people are obstinate because the path out requires acknowledging the sin, surrendering to God and accepting His love. That’s just too tall an order for people who are completely wrapped up in themselves. I should know because I was one of those people. I knew that God was real, I knew my childhood faith was correct but for years I lied to myself and fell further from Him because I was so ashamed of my own sin. At a certain point my faith in God was nearly completely gone, not because I doubted from some philosophical reason but because I NEEDED Him to be not real. Because if He was not real then I would have no reason to be ashamed.
The truth, of course, was that I needed to accept His love in order to break the bonds of shame. Not everyone gets to that point though. Some people remain in their sin and reject God because the world they construct for themselves “requires” it. I feel very sad for those people.
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sophion
Guest
^ thanks bucket. are you saying that those who chose themselves have been forgiven as well?
J
JRKH
Guest
You are welcome…thank you.
Well this really calls for an answer I cannot give - other than for speculation based on my very poor and limited understanding. That said…If you are interested in my speculative opinion…
A few are living “with God” even here on earth. These are people who have achieved a level of “unity” with God that most of us are not blessed with in this life.
A large number are seeking to move closer to God, to grow in holiness, so as to be united with Him in heaven. These can include people who are “formal” believers and seekers, as well as those who - seek after God perhaps without realizing it.
A still larger number definitely do not live with God here. They either reject Him outright, or simply ignore him…and again this number includes religious and non-religious people.
Like I say - don’t hold me to this…It’s simply my speculation.
Peace
James
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Iron_Donkey
Guest
This is easier to understand if you don’t think of Hell as punishment, although it is possible even if you do. I think there are (broadly) two possible ways of using the language about this, each one lending itself to a slightly different but equivalent conceptualization of what is going on, and each one technically correct. But they both use slightly different meanings of pretty much the same words. I will try to give a brief overview of both approaches, because reading through a couple of the replies I have seen them both used to answer you, and I think they may be getting muddled together in ways they shouldn’t.no you are not.
this really boils down to: Why should you punish one you had already forgiven?
but if its really like this:
*so humans should forgive everyone whether they repent or not.
but god only forgives those who repents.*
then it implies that those people who do so are morally superior to God.
I prefer the second myself, but both ways of speaking are valid. The problem comes when we mix them up, which is what I think is happening here.
Language 1: (What appears to be close to the way JRKH is approaching things) -
A person sins (mortally). That person has by his actions earned the punishments of Hell. God offers forgiveness which can destroy this punishment which the person has earned. If we do not accept, we are not forgiven and go to Hell.
Main points - Forgiveness has nothing to do with God’s disposition towards us, which is pretty much unchanging (as is everything about God). Forgiveness is, in this language, the destruction of consequences and restoration to a state of grace.
But, referring to this type of language, we are not always required to completely forgive even the person who sins against us but repents. If a person completely destroys my livelihood, I have a claim on him to try to get him to help me (to the extent that he reasonably can) rebuild it. I am not required to give up this claim, no matter how penitent he is. Indeed, if I have a family I was supporting, I may be morally required to, through the courts and the like if necessary, pursue restitution so that my family may live.
Likewise, the murderer may well repent, but we are not then required to let him out of prison. We may. But we don’t have to.
Now I can let go of these claims. But I am not required to.
So in this sense of waiving the consequences, we are not required to forgive except in some circumstances, and God offers this forgiveness to everyone but only grants it to those who repent (where “repent” and “accept forgiveness” mean pretty much the same thing.)
Further, in this sense, no one in Hell is forgiven (again, in the sense of “has not accepted the offer of a reconstructed friendship, restoration to a state of grace, and (at least partial, see purgatory) elimination of consequences”).
Language 2: (What Lochias et al appear to be using) -
I sin. God forgives me. He then, as an act which is highly related but not exactly the same, extends a method to rebuild my relationship with Him/escape punishment that I have piled upon myself. Accept or decline, God still loves me. Lochias is focusing on the rebuild relationship language within this type of language (I personally also think that is the better way to explain it).
In this language, Hell is not best (though it still can be) thought of as punishment at all. Rather than conceptualizing God as sending those to Hell who deserve it, we can conceptualize it as God opening the Gates of Heaven, and the damned refusing to enter.
Judging from your previous posts, you may well respond “that’s stupid, anyone would enter heaven if given the chance.” But that’s only true if heaven is joy, and to the person who dies in a state of hatred of God it wouldn’t be. For heaven is first and foremost perfect union with God, and a person who hates God would find that unbearably painful and would resist it at all costs.
Thus Hell is not really viewed as a direct punishment by God for doing bad stuff, but rather as a state of trying to flee from that painful light that the damned can not stand. But since it is not possible to flee from this light entirely (it is everywhere), only to avoid cozying up to the Source, there is Hell.
In this sense, forgiveness has nothing to do with consequences except indirectly, and involves more the continued love of the offender, and a willingness to allow things to be made right between you and he should this be possible (though it does not mean that we must pretend that it is possible when it is not, such as in the case of an abusive relationship).
And in this sense, we must offer unconditional forgiveness to everyone, and God offers the same to us.
Further, in this sense, even those in Hell are forgiven, but don’t care. They want nothing to do with God and so will not enter heaven.
A final note: the two ideas of Hell, as punishment and as self-inflicted choice, really are more or less the same because God is the ultimate reality. That is, there is not much difference between saying “God did X” and “there being only two options and option Y being refused by the sinner, X occurs,” because things are as they are because of how God is/what God does (and there really isn’t much difference between “how God is” and “what God does” either).
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Lochias
Guest
Very good. This is what I’m going for.
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sophion
Guest
that looks like the common understanding of hell. that those in it are really condemned, unforgiven and punished.
hmmm so for some people heaven is more painful than hell. thats a first!
yeah we can combine them in a way: in (2) god made heaven too painful for damned to enter that they have little choice but to go to hell where they are (3) punished.
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Lochias
Guest
Punish themselves, you mean.
R
R_C
Guest
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sophion
Guest
its god that made hell less painful for them. so they dont really have an option.
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The_Bucket
Guest
What exactly hell is we cannot say except that it is the total absence of God’s love. And God is not the one inflicting the torture, nor is He lessening it for anyone there. Because He’s not there. It’s not a physical location, more like a spiritual state. The souls there know of God’s existence but they chose themselves over Him and thus torture themselves for eternity.
And to your previous question, I think this has been addressed already. God LOVES everyone, even those that choose themselves. But forgiveness from Him requires contrition. He will love us no matter what we do. But we must choose to accept that love. That choice is what repentance and forgiveness is all about. God will not override our will to be separated from Him. So if we remain obstinate, He will withhold his grace and forgiveness because to do otherwise would be to override our will.
He will never withhold His love. His love extends even to the Adversary, but you won’t be seeing Satan anywhere near the gates because that’s not what Satan wants. He wants to be “like God.” In order to be with the Lord we must first and foremost acknowledge that we’re not Him. All creatures with free will, be they angelic or human, have that decision. Do we choose ourselves or do we choose God? No matter what we choose, God will love us. But if we choose us, then we are excluding Him and He will let us exclude Him. That’s why we are not forgiven. Because we choose not to be.
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Lochias
Guest
They had their options when they were alive.
The folks that don’t choose God have to go *somewhere. *
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R_C
Guest
Ok, seriously, grace, sin, and the states of heaven and hell are not that hard to understand. There is no point in repeating the sacred tradition over and over and try to explain it over and over, if the person asking just does not want to accept it.
There is a definition for this behavior: impugning the known truth.
To “impugn” the known truth means to attack it by word or argument, to resist it, to contradict it, or even to oppose the known truth or to challenge it as false.
Inasmuch as someone tries to understand the faith, this behavior is not sinful. But to be obstinate in accepting the revealed truth or trying to prove it wrong for an unreasonable amount of times is an offense against the Holy Spirit.
@Sophion, you keep wanting to believe that God punishes those souls against their will, that somehow He could be doing something better or more mercifully towards them. All of these ideas are gravely erroneous. You have received reasonable answers and there are literally centuries of writings of the Church going over these topics. It is now totally up to you to meditate more on them, learn more about them, and chose whether to accept the true witness that the Church, through us imperfectly and through Sacred Tradition, is bringing to you, or to continue in refusal to accept it.
It is always our choice. God does not impose neither salvation nor damnation on anybody.
There is a definition for this behavior: impugning the known truth.
To “impugn” the known truth means to attack it by word or argument, to resist it, to contradict it, or even to oppose the known truth or to challenge it as false.
Inasmuch as someone tries to understand the faith, this behavior is not sinful. But to be obstinate in accepting the revealed truth or trying to prove it wrong for an unreasonable amount of times is an offense against the Holy Spirit.
@Sophion, you keep wanting to believe that God punishes those souls against their will, that somehow He could be doing something better or more mercifully towards them. All of these ideas are gravely erroneous. You have received reasonable answers and there are literally centuries of writings of the Church going over these topics. It is now totally up to you to meditate more on them, learn more about them, and chose whether to accept the true witness that the Church, through us imperfectly and through Sacred Tradition, is bringing to you, or to continue in refusal to accept it.
It is always our choice. God does not impose neither salvation nor damnation on anybody.
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