Should you say the creed if you have doubts?

[Usige]

I think one other thing missing here is the origin of the creed. Why do we profess it? The Nicene Creed is the yard stick against which one measures their belief. The original creed was to combat the Arian heresy that claimed the Christ was a creature and not eternal. What is professed in the creed is the minimum of what a Christian must believe and those teachings that stand in opposition have traditionally been considered heresies.

I often wonder if the Church fathers from Nicea would even consider most Christians to be followers of the true faith given their propensity to define Christianity as their own set of beliefs instead of a universal (i.e. catholic) set of beliefs.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

You should recite the creed and pray for the faith to believe it.

 

[Br.Carlo]

Hi Carlo - with respect, does that mean you let the Church do the thinking for you, instead of thinking things out for ourselves. If we “surrender to the authority of the Catholic Church” and follow everything the Church says, could people not be seen as machines and not as thinking individuals?

God’s peace. Accepting the moral and spiritual authority of the Church in no sense turns me into a robot. There are many areas that I have difficulty with, and I have plenty of thoughts about them. There are many areas where the Church has not taken a position, and to a considerable extent I am free to form my own opinion. Nevertheless, when the Church speaks, to paraphrase a famous saint, the discussion is over.

Let me give you an example. While the Church has not definitively ruled on the theory of evolution, it has made dogmatic statements about the nature of man that I must take into account (as a faithful Catholic) when I am thinking scientifically about the origin of mankind. For instance, the Church teaches that the soul of man is immortal and created directly by God; it did not evolve. In addition, the Church teaches that all men descend from an original pair. Regardless of how these revealed truths line up with current evolutionary doctrine, a faithful Catholic will believe them. This is part of what it means to be Catholic.

Do not be confused by those who say that every word that comes out of a bishop’s mouth–even if he is the pope–carries this kind of authority. There are very specific circumstances where the teaching of the Church is infallible. Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

 

[chefmomster2]

God’s peace. The OP wrote,

“On this forum, most tend to Bible literalism. I am at the other end of the spectrum, and think some of it as largely human writing of its time.”

I was asked by one of my high school science students (I am asked this every year), “Do you believe the Bible?” My answer is, “I believe what the Catholic Church teaches about the Bible.” They don’t like that answer, but as I go on to explain, the source of authority for Catholics is not the Scriptures by themselves but the Magisterium of the Church. This authority was given by Christ Himself to Peter, the keeper of the Keys, and by extension to the other bishops of the Church in communion with the pope. It is *not *an authority that can be picked up by any individual or some other ecclesial community.

I was an Anglican once, and before that a seriously Calvinistic Presbyterian, so I understand your dilemma. The quandary you are in always traces back to the source of authority for what you believe. Left alone, I find myself getting quite literal in some areas of biblical interpretation and quite liberal or metaphorical in others. I have to serve as my own miniature pope in figuring out what to believe or disbelieve. But as a Catholic I am bound to look to the Church to explain what the Bible *means *(I can full well understand what it says).

There is a great deal of relief that comes with surrender to the authority of the Catholic Church. I can still remember the words the bishop asked me (almost 10 years ago to the date) as I prepared to enter into full communion: “Do you believe all things that the Church teaches and believes, as revealed by God?” My heart was filled with joy when I affirmed this question! I pray that you, too will find peace in surrendering your understanding to the care of the Catholic Church. Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

Such a beautiful post!

 

[JonNC]

Hi All

At the church I attend, on and off, we say the Nicene creed in the morning service and the Apostles’ creed in the evening service.

I have doubts about some of the content (God from God, true God from true God, etc). I don’t even know what this means, whether it is intelligible (apologies), never mind whether I believe it.

Also I cannot say I definitely believe Jesus was born from a virgin, and “I believe in the Holy Catholic church”… I always smile at that bit considering the church I attend is protestant

My question is if you have doubts about any of the content, should you say the creed or not? Are you better not saying it and staying silent?

Or is it ok to say it, as it is a group declaration rather than a personal one?

I guess this is applicable to Catholics as well, as I guess there may be some here may face the same question.

I know some Lutherans who refuse to confess the Athanasian Creed because of the final sentences: At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

My personal response in all of these issues is to seek out instruction from your priest, and trust the teachings of one’s communion.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

Chauncy.

I am a Christian, too. How do you know Catholics think little of the Nicene Creed? Who are you referring to? Can you read minds or control them???

 

[KathleenGee]

St. Patrick was taken into slavery when he was very young. In his confessions he stated that he would pray a hundred times a day. He was eventually freed and gives credit to the Lord alone.

There is such a thing as the Chaplet of St. Patrick. I used it in my tribulation when I almost left the Catholic Church, even had moments of hating it.

The Chaplet of St. Patrick calls one to recite 12 Apostles Creed to keep the faith. I would recommend any Cafeteria Catholic…(the pope calls them ‘rental Catholics’…they use the Church like it is some rental place and then go out to contradict their faith…) who are starting to have doubts…to recite the chaplet.

 

[Mystophilus]

Hi All

At the church I attend, on and off, we say the Nicene creed in the morning service and the Apostles’ creed in the evening service.

I have doubts about some of the content (God from God, true God from true God, etc). I don’t even know what this means, whether it is intelligible (apologies), never mind whether I believe it.

If you read up on the history of the Creeds, it makes a lot more sense.

My question is if you have doubts about any of the content, should you say the creed or not? Are you better not saying it and staying silent?

My church includes the Nicene Creed, but I remain silent for the Filioque (the bracketed “and the Son”) portion, because I go with the Orthodox on that one.

It depends how much it means to you, but I, for one, will not recite a creed in which I do not believe.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Hi Carlo - with respect, does that mean you let the Church do the thinking for you, instead of thinking things out for ourselves. If we “surrender to the authority of the Catholic Church” and follow everything the Church says, could people not be seen as machines and not as thinking individuals?

Catholics will of course tell you people thinking for themselves results in all the denominations we have today. But I get what you’re saying as well. I like to be able to think about matters of faith for myself too, to search Scripture as the Bereans, to pray for understanding, but as you said to look at the Bible too as humans writing in their times rather than being told what I must believe. As far as the Creed I’d look at the word, catholic, as universal not specifically the RCC. And as to the rest I guess recite that which you believe. God bless you on your journey of faith with peace.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi All

At the church I attend, on and off, we say the Nicene creed in the morning service and the Apostles’ creed in the evening service.

I have doubts about some of the content (God from God, true God from true God, etc). I don’t even know what this means, whether it is intelligible (apologies), never mind whether I believe it.

Also I cannot say I definitely believe Jesus was born from a virgin, and “I believe in the Holy Catholic church”… I always smile at that bit considering the church I attend is protestant

My question is if you have doubts about any of the content, should you say the creed or not? Are you better not saying it and staying silent?

Or is it ok to say it, as it is a group declaration rather than a personal one?

I guess this is applicable to Catholics as well, as I guess there may be some here may face the same question.

My opinion: say it until you believe it, and then keep on saying it.

After all, who is the arbiter of Truth? Is it you? Or is it God, and His Church? Let the Church teach you with Her ancient wisdom, in Her Creeds, and learn and repeat the Creeds until you believe in them.

Lex orandi, lex credendi - As we pray, so we [come to] believe.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

True God from true God essentially means that the son is God of God the father. At least that’s what I would take it to mean (if I am wrong I beg someone correct me). The fount of divinity is the father and the son and the spirit come from the father. This does not mean hierarchy in essence because all three share the same essence of being. The basic point of the section in which the son is talked about is to demonstrate that he is God, worthy of worship.

If you don’t believe the son is God… Well that’s a bit of a problem.

As for “one holy catholic and apostolic church,” you’ll be left to your own tradition to interpret that. Those are the four marks of the church which the fathers identified with the true church. Catholic, whole or universal does not necessarily imply only Rome though at the time Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and the local churches would have constituted the catholic church, those who shared the nicene profession of faith.

 

[Darryl_B]

Hi All

At the church I attend, on and off, we say the Nicene creed in the morning service and the Apostles’ creed in the evening service.

I have doubts about some of the content (God from God, true God from true God, etc). I don’t even know what this means, whether it is intelligible (apologies), never mind whether I believe it.

Also I cannot say I definitely believe Jesus was born from a virgin, and “I believe in the Holy Catholic church”… I always smile at that bit considering the church I attend is protestant

My question is if you have doubts about any of the content, should you say the creed or not? Are you better not saying it and staying silent?

Or is it ok to say it, as it is a group declaration rather than a personal one?

I guess this is applicable to Catholics as well, as I guess there may be some here may face the same question.

I have a question for you, if you were to write your own (personal) creed what would it say?

 

[Irishgal49]

They use the world Catholic with a lower “c” as they created something called the branch theory (Catholic + Orthodox + Anglican + “Swedish Church” = The Catholic Church).

As Catholics we reject this theory of course. The word Catholic means universal yes, but the Catholic Church is the universal church.

Actually the Methodist Church says that the small c means “universal” not Catholic as in the Catholic Church. I went to a service where they replaced “catholic” with “Christian” which was a first. Most Protestant churches I attended use small c and explain that in the Protestant context it means universal.

 

[Sy_Noe]

God’s peace. The OP wrote,

“On this forum, most tend to Bible literalism. I am at the other end of the spectrum, and think some of it as largely human writing of its time.”

I was asked by one of my high school science students (I am asked this every year), “Do you believe the Bible?” My answer is, “I believe what the Catholic Church teaches about the Bible.” They don’t like that answer, but as I go on to explain, the source of authority for Catholics is not the Scriptures by themselves but the Magisterium of the Church. This authority was given by Christ Himself to Peter, the keeper of the Keys, and by extension to the other bishops of the Church in communion with the pope. It is *not *an authority that can be picked up by any individual or some other ecclesial community.

I was an Anglican once, and before that a seriously Calvinistic Presbyterian, so I understand your dilemma. The quandary you are in always traces back to the source of authority for what you believe. Left alone, I find myself getting quite literal in some areas of biblical interpretation and quite liberal or metaphorical in others. I have to serve as my own miniature pope in figuring out what to believe or disbelieve. But as a Catholic I am bound to look to the Church to explain what the Bible *means *(I can full well understand what it says).

There is a great deal of relief that comes with surrender to the authority of the Catholic Church. I can still remember the words the bishop asked me (almost 10 years ago to the date) as I prepared to enter into full communion: “Do you believe all things that the Church teaches and believes, as revealed by God?” My heart was filled with joy when I affirmed this question! I pray that you, too will find peace in surrendering your understanding to the care of the Catholic Church. Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

I have no doubt for faithful Catholics their church brings them relief. I think to some extent different personalities come into play however. Some of us have a greater need to have things black and white to alleviate the quandary. Others however need more gray to find peace. They walk their faith journeys striving to grow in understanding but at the same time come from a frame of reference that humans with finite minds can’t be certain they know what an infinite God meant. Nor have the need to as God knows and understands our human limitations. The former group needs matters of faith spelled out in black and white to avoid the quandary. The latter however I think can feel too confined in such a place. It’s simply to some extent I believe a matter of their natures. Peace to both.

 

[Basilian]

A holy Italian priest once told me that when he had doubts late in the night he would sit up and say aloud “I want to believe - I WANT to believe it”. Not only did this public profession ward the demons off, but it worked to settle his noisy mind. The Gospel is not only good but desirable, for it confirms and fulfills all the deepest desires of human nature. We simply need to say aloud “Lord, I want to believe it all” with fervent desire, and He grants it.

The full truth of the faith is eminently believable!

 

[PaulDupre1]

Actually the Methodist Church says that the small c means “universal” not Catholic as in the Catholic Church. I went to a service where they replaced “catholic” with “Christian” which was a first. Most Protestant churches I attended use small c and explain that in the Protestant context it means universal.

It means universal in the Catholic context as well.

 

[PJM]

=Dave B_;12112003]Hi All

At the church I attend, on and off, we say the Nicene creed in the morning service and the Apostles’ creed in the evening service.

I have doubts about some of the content (God from God, true God from true God, etc). I don’t even know what this means, whether it is intelligible (apologies), never mind whether I believe it.

Also I cannot say I definitely believe Jesus was born from a virgin, and “I believe in the Holy Catholic church”… I always smile at that bit considering the church I attend is protestant

My question is if you have doubts about any of the content, should you say the creed or not? Are you better not saying it and staying silent?

Or is it ok to say it, as it is a group declaration rather than a personal one?

I guess this is applicable to Catholics as well, as I guess there may be some here may face the same question.

**
You SHOULD pray the CREED especially ID you have doubts!

Also pray to the HS daily for enlightenment.

What is the nature of your doubts. Please be specific**.

Pray Much!
Patrick

 

[SteveVH]

I have no doubt for faithful Catholics their church brings them relief. I think to some extent different personalities come into play however. Some of us have a greater need to have things black and white to alleviate the quandary. Others however need more gray to find peace.

I reject the premise that the Catholic Church is based upon some psychological need or that it is a matter of preference based upon what seems to bring us the most peace.

The Catholic Church exists because Jesus Christ himself founded it. The truth which it possesses is divinely revealed truth. Sometimes this truth can bring us anything but peace, especially if we are not living within God’s will. Sometimes we need to be made to feel uneasy. Nevertheless, it is the truth that we should seek, not a peaceful feeling based upon our own desires and personal preferences.

They walk their faith journeys striving to grow in understanding but at the same time come from a frame of reference that humans with finite minds can’t be certain they know what an infinite God meant.

When the 5,000 walked away from Jesus after hearing that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood he turned to the Apostles and asked “will you also go?”. The apostles didn’t answer “no, Lord, we understand exactly what you meant”. They said "To whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life." They didn’t believe or follow Jesus because they understood, but rather because of the One who told them. We do the same. We eat His body and drink His blood, not because we understand, but because he commanded it. That is the Catholic faith. It has nothing to do with finite minds.

The former group needs matters of faith spelled out in black and white to avoid the quandary. The latter however I think can feel too confined in such a place. It’s simply to some extent I believe a matter of their natures. Peace to both.

But what about the Truth? Does it matter, or is it only a matter of feeling comfortable somewhere?

 

[Mystophilus]

My opinion: say it until you believe it, and then keep on saying it.

This is an opinion which I have heard from a few Catholics, but I find it very disturbing. In fact, being told to do this was one of the major things which turned me away from converting to Catholicism.

For me to say, “I believe” when I do not believe would be a lie. I could say, “I want to believe”, but a Creed is (as the name states) an expression of belief. After I came back to church, and started attending an Anglican church where a Creed is a regular part of the service, I spent six months standing silent in that part of the service, until I could say it with a clear conscience.

 

[jmcrae]

This is an opinion which I have heard from a few Catholics, but I find it very disturbing. In fact, being told to do this was one of the major things which turned me away from converting to Catholicism.

For me to say, “I believe” when I do not believe would be a lie. I could say, “I want to believe”, but a Creed is (as the name states) an expression of belief. After I came back to church, and started attending an Anglican church where a Creed is a regular part of the service, I spent six months standing silent in that part of the service, until I could say it with a clear conscience.

If you make yourself the arbiter of truth, this is the situation you find yourself in. But if God is the arbiter of truth, then you can say “I believe - help Thou mine unbelief” with a clear conscience.