Shouldn't one Mass get someone out of Purgatory?

[anruari]

Iv think am important point here is a proper understanding of what purgatory is and what it is not.
Purgatory is not a 2nd chance to make amends for unrepentant sins.
The penalty of sin is death. If you die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin you cannot inert the Kingdom of Heaven.
But what about a sin I fight against but am unable to stop my addiction to? Say an miking as a physical addiction or compulsive swearing for someone who learned that from early childhood.?
Nothing that is not totally pure and of God can enter the Kingdom of heaven!

I think of purgatory this way:
when you die you are faced with your particular judgment. You come face to facewith your creator. In his gaze you are confronted with the hurt and harm caused by every sin and impure act you ever committed. You see the hurt you caused Him and the hurt you caused others and all the good things you prevented in your own life and those around y you.

If you are in a state of unrepentant sin you will be too filled with anger pride or Smith cardinal vice to accept the love and forgives of God and will reject Him. In doing so y you will be rejecting his salvation of your own free will as a direct result of the state you came to him in by the life you led. You will cat yourself out of his presence. For Him to force you to accept his love would not be love it would be spiritual rape.

If you are a normal person who lived in the knowledge of Goods Love but struggled with attachment to sins and to the things off this world you will humbly and gratefully welcome His Judgment but to do so will be intensely painful in the way that it hurts to face your spouse and say “Sorry” when you know you’ve messed up big time.

His judgment will burn away everything that is not pure good. All your love of the things off this world. Even your special attachment to family on earth as we know we have no spouses in heaven!

That process is painful and not instantaneous. It is a refiners fire that Burns away all the dogs straw and wood and leaves only the precious metal the pure gold and silver of our souls.
That is purgatory.

Some of it start that process here on earth. That’s what’s involved in the conditions to recurve a plenary indulgence: to be free of attachment to sin!

Saints like St Teresa of Avila describe what is like to experience that on earth an to come through the other side.

I pay to learn to give my sufferings in this world as a sacrifice to His willv in the way those saints taught us

I hoe this helps. It’s a good understanding but not the only permitted one

 

[Zeno11]

The Mass is a Re-presentation of the sacrifice at Calvary. It exists for all time. It is NOT sacrificing Jesus over and over each time to pay for our sins. Jesus died once for all.

If your logic about Mass and purgatory were consistent, you would think that Mass would not even need to be offered because Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. So hey, free pass to heaven right? Nope. You still have to purify. You still have to make amends. Justice still needs to be exacted. I think you are confused as to what the Mass really is.

I must be confused too. What do you mean, ‘justice still needs to be exacted’? Jesus paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, did he not? That is how we are forgiven? There is nothing we can offer for our sins but the blood of Christ, surely?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I must be confused too. What do you mean, ‘justice still needs to be exacted’? Jesus paid the penalty for our sins on the cross, did he not? That is how we are forgiven? There is nothing we can offer for our sins but the blood of Christ, surely?

It might be helpful to look at this from the perspective of indulgences.
Temporal punishment is and has been a teaching of the faith. When you open my fridge and pour out my milk on the floor, I can forgive you, but the milk still needs to be cleaned up.

 

[SirEwenii]

It might be helpful to look at this from the perspective of indulgences.
Temporal punishment is and has been a teaching of the faith. When you open my fridge and pour out my milk on the floor, I can forgive you, but the milk still needs to be cleaned up.

I understand that but when I have thought of penance and indulgences has always been like this: I show my true repentance by offering something up, by doing some good work- normally this is really just a pittance, like not snacking on something etc. What i’ve really done is try to clean up the milk from the floor with a tiny centimeter of paper towel- completely inefficient really. I then unite this offering at the sacrifice of the Mass and it takes an infinite value, united to Christ’s sacrifie. Boy, is it powerful! Why then doesn’t it clean up all the milk and leave a swept and polished floor in its place?

My penance wouldn’t have much worth on its own, but united to Christ’s sacrifice it is really powerful.
My penance on behalf of others doesn’t have much value, but surely united to Christ’s sacrifice He has taken all the punishment?

This is more theoretical question than practical- I will still always pray for the dead!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I understand that but when I have thought of penance and indulgences has always been like this: I show my true repentance by offering something up, by doing some good work- normally this is really just a pittance, like not snacking on something etc. What i’ve really done is try to clean up the milk from the floor with a tiny centimeter of paper towel- completely inefficient really. I then unite this offering at the sacrifice of the Mass and it takes an infinite value, united to Christ’s sacrifie. Boy, is it powerful! Why then doesn’t it clean up all the milk and leave a swept and polished floor in its place?

My penance wouldn’t have much worth on its own, but united to Christ’s sacrifice it is really powerful.
My penance on behalf of others doesn’t have much value, but surely united to Christ’s sacrifice He has taken all the punishment?

This is more theoretical question than practical- I will still always pray for the dead!

You keep saying you understand but if that is true I guess I don’t understand what your struggle is in understanding things.

If you understand the Mass, and the Eucharist, what exactly are you having trouble with?

 

[SirEwenii]

You keep saying you understand but if that is true I guess I don’t understand what your struggle is in understanding things.

If you understand the Mass, and the Eucharist, what exactly are you having trouble with?

OK, I guess I meant that I do understand that it is a matter of making up for temporal punishment and I understand the teaching of temporal punishment.

I also know that we can help our brothers and sisters in purgatory to make up for temporal punishment by our prayers and sacrifices.
I just don’t get how the Mass- as the ultimate sacrifice- doesn’t make up for all temporal punishment. Or a sacrifice of mine united to the Holy Mass. Surely Christ’s sacrifice is punishment enough! Especially since simple prayers can make up for temporal punishment. oh well it doesn’t matter.
Perhaps I just have to understand the way graces are poured out in the Mass better?

 

[janeway529]

I understand that but when I have thought of penance and indulgences has always been like this: I show my true repentance by offering something up, by doing some good work- normally this is really just a pittance, like not snacking on something etc. What i’ve really done is try to clean up the milk from the floor with a tiny centimeter of paper towel- completely inefficient really. I then unite this offering at the sacrifice of the Mass and it takes an infinite value, united to Christ’s sacrifie. Boy, is it powerful! Why then doesn’t it clean up all the milk and leave a swept and polished floor in its place?

My penance wouldn’t have much worth on its own, but united to Christ’s sacrifice it is really powerful.
My penance on behalf of others doesn’t have much value, but surely united to Christ’s sacrifice He has taken all the punishment?

This is more theoretical question than practical- I will still always pray for the dead!

The thing about sin, using your analogy, it isn’t like milk; it’s more like red wine stains on a carpet. Only God knows how much grace (related to time in purgatory) is needed to “clean up the mess (get into Heaven),” and it may take more than one powerful “cleaning session” (Offerings and Mass - highest form of prayer) to completely get rid of the stain (sin).

 

[SirEwenii]

Put all the good works in the world against one Holy Mass.
They will be as a grain of sand beside a mountain.
St. John Vianney

 

[GangGreen]

There is an old tradition of offering Gregorian Masses for the dead. This means 30 continuous days of Masses offered for a dead person. This was started by St. Gregory the Great. It was said a monk who was in purgatory was offered continuous Masses for 30 days and after this his soul was liberated to heaven. This is not a guarantee that it will work, but that’s a tradition that I know of in relation to Masses getting someone out of Purgatory.

 

[Zeno11]

‘If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’. 1 John 1:9

‘How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.’ Hebrews 9:14

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Hebrews 10:17

I don’t really understand where this idea that sin leaves a stain comes from. It doesn’t seem to be a teaching from Jesus or the NT. Who can enlighten me?!

 

[JRS_88]

…Only God knows how much grace (related to time in purgatory) is needed to “clean up the mess (get into Heaven),” and it may take more than one powerful “cleaning session” (Offerings and Mass - highest form of prayer) to completely get rid of the stain (sin).

Only God knows what it will take to completely cleanse a soul. I want my family and friends to offer many masses, and indulgences for me. God will use them how He chooses for the benefit of another soul when my purification has ended.

 

[Augustine3]

If one Mass and Holy Communion is offered for a soul in Purgatory shouldn’t we just assume they are in heaven now? Since the Mass has all the graces of Christ’s sacrifice on Purgatory I just don’t understand how there could be any further need for purification after one Mass has been offered. Of course I don’t have a problem with continuing to pray for their soul but I just don’t understand how theologically it would make sense that anyone would still be in Purgatory after a Mass was offered for them.

Technically yes, one mass should get a soul out of purgatory and into heaven given the offerer has the right disposition. But how do we know if we have the right disposition? We should constantly be praying “Lord I believe, help my weak faith!”.

 

[fred_conty]

Theologically we understand that the crucifixion of Jesus has redeemed everyone in the whole world. But even after that not everyone is saved. To be saved not only depends on grace offered, but grace accepted.

We really don’t know what sort of disposition any soul in purgatory may be in to accept the grace they need. They do suffer if for no other reason than being separated from God. But in what condition is their soul that may allow them to use the grace or not use it is unknown.

When we offer a Mass on earth for someone living, it may or may not result in someone benefiting from it depending on the barriers they have put up. But if the person praying is persistent, then God may give that person, the object of the prayer, sufficient grace to dispose them to accept the offer of grace.

So much depends on the disposition of those praying and those prayed for. It isn’t a magical thing or a technical process, but God’s interaction with each person as they are.

Maybe for some an Our Father may do it.

 

[GangGreen]

‘If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’. 1 John 1:9

‘How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.’ Hebrews 9:14

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Hebrews 10:17

I don’t really understand where this idea that sin leaves a stain comes from. It doesn’t seem to be a teaching from Jesus or the NT. Who can enlighten me?!

How can one who has any kind of attachment to sin go to heaven? How can one who is imperfect behold the glory that is God? It was said that an imperfect soul who spent 1 hour in heaven would be harmed more than a soul who spent 10 hours in purgatory before going to heaven (or something like that, I can’t find the exact quote right now). We just cannot perceive the glory and radiance that is God without being perfected through purification.

We should always offer prayers for the Poor Souls in purgatory. They need them very much and in return they also offer us many prayers. Why they cannot help themselves, they can help us. The Lord is greatly pleased when we offer prayers for these who cannot help themselves. This is a great form of charity! One day when it’s our turn, won’t it be great to know that we’ve gained many merits through the souls that we helped get to heaven?

 

[SirEwenii]

Theologically we understand that the crucifixion of Jesus has redeemed everyone in the whole world. But even after that not everyone is saved. To be saved not only depends on grace offered, but grace accepted.

We really don’t know what sort of disposition any soul in purgatory may be in to accept the grace they need. They do suffer if for no other reason than being separated from God. But in what condition is their soul that may allow them to use the grace or not use it is unknown.

When we offer a Mass on earth for someone living, it may or may not result in someone benefiting from it depending on the barriers they have put up. But if the person praying is persistent, then God may give that person, the object of the prayer, sufficient grace to dispose them to accept the offer of grace.

So much depends on the disposition of those praying and those prayed for. It isn’t a magical thing or a technical process, but God’s interaction with each person as they are.

Maybe for some an Our Father may do it.

Good point. A priest once told me that going to Mass was like going to Niagara Falls to get some water, if the only container we have is a thimble all we get is a thimbleful even thought there is ample water, so we have to take care to bring a massive container.

 

[fred_conty]

“I don’t really understand where this idea that sin leaves a stain comes from.”

It is difficult to understand but I heard of an illustration.

When a nail is extracted from a piece of wood, the nail is taken out but it leaves a hole that needs fixing.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I think the basic theological principle here is the following:

1. God’s grace is superabundant, infinite, and never-ending
2. However, our (humans’) receptivity, both voluntary and our inherent “ability,” is flawed both because of personal sin and Original Sin

The Poor Souls in Purgatory are not yet perfected completely. So it makes perfect sense–theoretically at least–that they require our persistent efforts of prayer. Just like the conversion of a soul on earth requires persistence.