Shouldn't the biggest ecumenical concern be the epiclesis?

[frjohnmorris]

I never said the Eastern Orthodox or Catholic Churches would agree with the Coptic Orthodox, or that the Oriental practice is the same as that of the Eastern Orthodox. I said it is like it, even if different. Either way it is going outside the normal operation of the Church and saying that the Spirit fills what is lacking. The EO use economy in the acceptance of converts without baptism. Blind Didymus said that in the Oriental practice it is seen that the deacon is chosen by God. If he is able to finish the liturgy despite the fact that he is unordained, it is only because God gave what was necessary for the occasion. You can dispute the legitimacy of the practice if you like: I was pointing out a similarity.

That is not exactly correct. We use economy to perfect whatever is lacking in a Protestant Baptism through Chrismation. Obviously if someone had not been Baptized at all, they would have to be Baptized. Protestants do not have Apostolic Succession, therefore even if they have something called Confirmation like the Lutherans and Anglicans, it is not considered a valid Confirmation by the Orthodox Church. When we receive Roman Catholics by Chrismation, it is not the same as the Chrismation of a Protestant because Chrismation is also used to reconcile someone who has left the Church back into the Church. Therefore, it is not a denial of the validity or Catholic Baptism. The Russian receive Roman Catholics by a Profession of Faith. During the days of Communism, the Russian Orthodox would give Communion to a Confirmed Roman Catholic who did not have access to the ministry of a Catholic Priest. Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, we do not have first Communion, but always administer Chrismation immediately after Baptism, even to infants, who also receive Holy Communion. Instead, we have First Confession when a child is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.
A Baptized and Chrismated Oriental Orthodox would be received by a simple Profession of Faith. If there is no Oriental Orthodox Church available, some Eastern Orthodox Bishops instruct their clergy to minister to Oriental Orthodox like any other Orthodox Christian.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

uch: I hope you corrected him. :ehh:

What is wrong with the statement that there are 23 rites in the Catholic Church? There are 23 Churches sui iuris … perhaps “rite” is a problem word?

 

[dzheremi]

As I understand it from years of posting here and reading Peter J’s consistent complaint about this terminology, a “rite” refers to the form of the liturgy used within a particular church, whereas a church is…well, a church. For instance, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church both use the Byzantine Rite of Constantinople, whose primary liturgy is that of St. John Chrysostom. These are two separate churches who happen to use the same rite. Likewise, the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church both use the East Syrian rite, whose primary liturgy is that attributed to Addai (St. Thaddeus) & Mari (his disciple). These again are two separate churches which use the same rite.

So every church has one or more rite attached to it (even in the Latin world, there are variations; most use the standard Latin Rite, but there are also Mozarabic rite, Ambrosian rite, and the various rites attached to Latin religious orders), but they may not break down in such a way as to completely identify one church with a particular rite. Or, to put it another way, a church is more than the particular form of liturgy it most often celebrates.

 

[AnthonyJ]

Because there aren’t 23 Rites in the Church. Your second sentence explains why it is a problem. They are Churches not Rites.

What is wrong with the statement that there are 23 rites in the Catholic Church? There are 23 Churches sui iuris … perhaps “rite” is a problem word?

 

[TimothyH]

What is wrong with the statement that there are 23 rites in the Catholic Church? There are 23 Churches sui iuris … perhaps “rite” is a problem word?

It seems that almost every time I try to engage in conversation here on the EC forum, at least one person takes issue with my lack of precision with terminology and goes out of his way to try to portray me as an idiot.

I’m quite tired of being looked down upon by Eastern Catholics and Orthodox whom I try to engage in conversation, as some kind of inferior creature. I can count at least a dozen times where I engaged someone in conversation because of an picture of Mary on their desk or a medal they have around their neck and when I say, “I’m Roman Catholic” the conversation ends and my next statement is ignored, or they roll their eyes and sigh.

The only place I have ever felt welcomed within Eastern Catholic and Orthodox circles is within the Etheopian Orthodox Church. I have more success, and quite frankly, more fun discussing faith with Southern Baptists than you guys.

And no, I won’t let the door slam behind me.

-Tim-

 

[Zekariya]

It seems that almost every time I try to engage in conversation here on the EC forum, at least one person takes issue with my lack of precision with terminology and goes out of his way to try to portray me as an idiot.

I think that it was the bi-ritual priest that was being addressed.

I’m quite tired of being looked down upon by Eastern Catholics and Orthodox whom I try to engage in conversation, as some kind of inferior creature. I can count at least a dozen times where I engaged someone in conversation because of an picture of Mary on their desk or a medal they have around their neck and when I say, “I’m Roman Catholic” the conversation ends and my next statement is ignored, or they roll their eyes and sigh.

You bring forth a great accusation against the Eastern Catholics. This statement is not verifiable. There is no way to debate what you have said since we have to take your word for it. The Eastern Catholics in my area are nothing like that. This comment of yours not charitable. I cannot see most Eastern Catholics ignoring and treating you poorly because you are a “Roman Catholic”.

The only place I have ever felt welcomed within Eastern Catholic and Orthodox circles is within the Etheopian Orthodox Church. I have more success, and quite frankly, more fun discussing faith with Southern Baptists than you guys.

This generalized accusation against the Eastern Catholics is not appreciated.

 

[frjohnmorris]

It seems that almost every time I try to engage in conversation here on the EC forum, at least one person takes issue with my lack of precision with terminology and goes out of his way to try to portray me as an idiot.

I’m quite tired of being looked down upon by Eastern Catholics and Orthodox whom I try to engage in conversation, as some kind of inferior creature. I can count at least a dozen times where I engaged someone in conversation because of an picture of Mary on their desk or a medal they have around their neck and when I say, “I’m Roman Catholic” the conversation ends and my next statement is ignored, or they roll their eyes and sigh.

The only place I have ever felt welcomed within Eastern Catholic and Orthodox circles is within the Etheopian Orthodox Church. I have more success, and quite frankly, more fun discussing faith with Southern Baptists than you guys.

And no, I won’t let the door slam behind me.

-Tim-

I think that the door swings both ways, Sometimes Roman Catholics can be insensitive to our Eastern sensibilities. I have had bad experiences with some Roman Catholic clergy who have a superior attitude and treat me as if I were an uneducated foreigner. I do not think that either side has a monopoly on insensitive people. The worst ones in the RC Church are the feminist nuns.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[Brian_Kerzetski]

It seems that almost every time I try to engage in conversation here on the EC forum, at least one person takes issue with my lack of precision with terminology and goes out of his way to try to portray me as an idiot.

I’m quite tired of being looked down upon by Eastern Catholics and Orthodox whom I try to engage in conversation, as some kind of inferior creature. I can count at least a dozen times where I engaged someone in conversation because of an picture of Mary on their desk or a medal they have around their neck and when I say, “I’m Roman Catholic” the conversation ends and my next statement is ignored, or they roll their eyes and sigh.

The only place I have ever felt welcomed within Eastern Catholic and Orthodox circles is within the Etheopian Orthodox Church. I have more success, and quite frankly, more fun discussing faith with Southern Baptists than you guys.

And no, I won’t let the door slam behind me.

-Tim-

Tim,

I understand how you feel, but remember it is only a few that treat you that way. I am in no way trying to justify their behavior, but every large group has people in it who haven’t mastered acting charitably. The best thing to do is to ignore their comments or tell them how they make you feel (possibly in a private message). I agree, there are some nasty people in the East and the West, but they need prayers just as much as you or I. Perhaps your continued participation will help them see their error.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Does anyone have a Magisterial reference stating that the idea that there is a temporal “moment” where it becomes His Body is a doctrine/dogma? I’m aware that the words "This is my body are considered necessary, but is that considered a “moment” of transformation, or a necessary ingredient? Or a necessary completion of something begun at epiclesis making the entire in-between mysteriously the transformation, based on the period in which we kneel? Kind of like how Christ’s “Passion” is still a singular event from Garden to Ascension, rather than there being a temporal “moment” when he effected redemption.

 

[chimo]

NOTE: Considering the apparent gravity of this subject, it seems almost impossible for me to phrase this question in a way that doesn’t offend anybody. So please take my word for it that I don’t intend to cause offense in any way, if I do.

I find it somewhat strange that about half of ecumenical dialogues with Eastern Christians seems to revolve around the filioque. While it would certainly be concerning if a profession of faith had a theologically erroneous statement in it, it seems like that should be entirely dwarfed by the difference between the Latin and Eastern sacramental theology of when the consecration occurs in Mass/Divine Liturgy.

In Latin theology, the consecration occurs at the Words of Institution. In Eastern theology, the consecration occurs at the epiclesis. This issue seems to be oft considered nothing beyond a coffee-table intrigue, but I don’t see why that’s the case. This is a pretty big deal.

If an Eastern Christian were to attend Holy Mass in the Roman rite, he would be inclined to worship (what Latins consider) bread and wine for the 30 seconds or so that happens between the epiclesis and the Words of Institution. That is idolatry. Whereas if a Latin Christian were to attend an Eastern Divine Liturgy, he would be inclined to view the (what Eastern Christians consider to be the) Most Holy Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ to be bread and wine for the 30 seconds or so that happens between the epiclesis and the Words of Institution, whilst everybody around him is committing idolatry.

An easy way to sweep this under the rug would be to say that the consecration occurs at different times in the rites, according to the intention of the celebrant. But that also seems quite troubling to me, since that turns a supernatural, sacramental power of the priesthood into a subjectivity; quite contrary to the ‘catholic’ spirit of there being One Body in Christ. Furthermore, that would also seem to suggest that both Latin and Eastern Christians should not object to the fact that separated Christians with invalid priesthoods, like the Anglicans and Methodists, are not committing idolatry despite the fact that they have no power to confect the Holy Eucharist.

Perhaps I am missing something very significant in the matter? If somebody could point me int he right direction. God bless.

I don’t think God requires the same from each Church that are contained in the words to consecrate the bread and wine into Jesus Christ. These rites that we have in East and West are valid not because of the words but because there is a valid priest who administers to them. I could say these words and yes nothing will happen. I don’t believe this kind of differences in our Liturgy and Mass will have any concern for us. Jesus comes in both rites so let us believe this to be so. If there can be anything that we can learn or point out from our differences in our rites is this. The Catholic Church puts more emphasis on Jesus in the Mass and the Orthodox Church more emphasis on the Holy Spirit. I am referring to our consecrations here. Either way is acceptable to the Eternal Father. I am certain that this difference is also reflected in the way each Church looks precisely at their Mass and Divine Liturgy to be focused more on. The Catholics tend to see the Mass as more of a Sacrifice which of course it is and the Orthodox tends to see the Divine Liturgy as more Communal with this present of the Holy Spirit which of course it is. They are both right. Yet we can see that one Church leans more towards Sacrifice with some leaning towards Communal and the other Church leaning more to the Communal with some leaning towards Sacrifice.

 

[Peter_J]

It seems that almost every time I try to engage in conversation here on the EC forum, at least one person takes issue with my lack of precision with terminology and goes out of his way to try to portray me as an idiot.

I’m quite tired of being looked down upon by Eastern Catholics and Orthodox whom I try to engage in conversation, as some kind of inferior creature. I can count at least a dozen times where I engaged someone in conversation because of an picture of Mary on their desk or a medal they have around their neck and when I say, “I’m Roman Catholic” the conversation ends and my next statement is ignored, or they roll their eyes and sigh.

The only place I have ever felt welcomed within Eastern Catholic and Orthodox circles is within the Etheopian Orthodox Church. I have more success, and quite frankly, more fun discussing faith with Southern Baptists than you guys.

And no, I won’t let the door slam behind me.

-Tim-

I hear you, Tim, but as someone else said the door swings both ways. Or, if you will, there are bad apples in every bunch – including the Latin Church and the EC Churches. If you read this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=804526
you’ll see that there are many ECs here who are more friendly toward LCs, and not at all quick to put them down for innocently using incorrect terminology.

 

[frjohnmorris]

The Catholic Church puts more emphasis on Jesus in the Mass and the Orthodox Church more emphasis on the Holy Spirit. I am referring to our consecrations here. Either way is acceptable to the Eternal Father. I am certain that this difference is also reflected in the way each Church looks precisely at their Mass and Divine Liturgy to be focused more on. The Catholics tend to see the Mass as more of a Sacrifice which of course it is and the Orthodox tends to see the Divine Liturgy as more Communal with this present of the Holy Spirit which of course it is. They are both right. Yet we can see that one Church leans more towards Sacrifice with some leaning towards Communal and the other Church leaning more to the Communal with some leaning towards Sacrifice.

Eastern Orthodox also consider the Divine Liturgy a sacrifice.
The dialogue before “Let us life up our hearts…” begins with the Deacon or Priest if there is no Deacon proclaiming, “Let us stand aright. Let us stand with fear. Let us attend, that we may offer the holy oblation in peace.” The choir responds, “A mercy of pece, a sacrifie of praise.”
I just read the part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church dealing with the sacrifice of the Mass and found nothing in it that we Orthodox would not write. As far as I can see our beliefs on this matter are identical.
The Catechism also declines to mention a specific moment of consecration writing instead, “It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood th Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith fo the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ adn of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion.” 1375

Thus after reading the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church as expressed in its Catechism, I cannot find a difference between what Eastern Orthodox believe and what Roman Catholics believe about the Eucharist.

Someone awhile ago asked if Eastern Orthodox consider the Tridentine Mass valid because it seems to lack a clearly stated Epiklesis. I have the text before me now and can respond better than I did originally. St. Nicholas Cabasalis wrote that this prayer in the Latin Canon meets the requirements of an Epiklesis
We humbly beseech thee, almighty God, to command that these things be born by the hands of thy holy angel to thine altar on high, into the presence of thy divine majesty, that so many of us as shall partake t this altar of the most sacred Body and Blood of thy Son, may be filled with all heavenly benediction. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[jimmy]

It is interesting that everyone feels marginalized or looked down upon by everyone else. We in the east feel that the latins look down upon us, and then a Latin comes over and feels like we are condescending toward him. Maybe a lot of it is in our perceptions of each other and miscommunication. Maybe we all are just a little too sensitive.

 

[malphono]

…

I don’t mean to be critical, but it is often very difficult to follow your posts, particularly when quoting another post. Perhaps you might want to have a look here and then here to become more familiar with “BB codes” and such. I might also add that the “preview post” feature can be very helpful in that it gives the opportunity to see what the post will look like, and add/delete “BB codes” as may be needed.

 

[frjohnmorris]

I don’t mean to be critical, but it is often very difficult to follow your posts, particularly when quoting another post. Perhaps you might want to have a look here and then here to become more familiar with “BB codes” and such. I might also add that the “preview post” feature can be very helpful in that it gives the opportunity to see what the post will look like, and add/delete “BB codes” as may be needed.

Thanks. I have never heard of a BB code, but will try harder to make my messages clearer.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[malphono]

Thanks. I have never heard of a BB code, but will try harder to make my messages clearer.

Archpriest John W. Morris

The quote on this one worked quite well.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks. I have never heard of a BB code, but will try harder to make my messages clearer.

Archpriest John W. Morris

Basically, when you use the “quote” button, you’ll sometimes want to delete a portion of the post you’re quoting. Just be careful not to delete the beginning … the " QUOTE=…]"

 

[chimo]

I was referring more to the “experience” of the Mass and the Divine Liturgy rather than what is contained in both services. The structure of the Mass leaning more to Christ’s Sacrifice is more evident when one participates regularly while the emphasis in the East is more the gathering of the community. However you are right that both Churches have both and that is what I said as well but experiencing both Liturgies can give you this leaning if you can call it to experience more what Christ is doing for us in the West while the experience is more to what the Holy Spirit is giving to you without taking away the other. It is to this “experience” that a Catholic and an Orthodox will have complimentary yet distinct behaviors from following their own discipline as covered by the Mass and the Divine Liturgy. I have experienced both and from observing the two Churches and experiencing the two Churches there is a distinct way which grows from the peoples that is clearly seen in how they “experience” the Holy Communion.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Does anyone have a Magisterial reference stating that the idea that there is a temporal “moment” where it becomes His Body is a doctrine/dogma? I’m aware that the words "This is my body are considered necessary, but is that considered a “moment” of transformation, or a necessary ingredient? Or a necessary completion of something begun at epiclesis making the entire in-between mysteriously the transformation, based on the period in which we kneel? Kind of like how Christ’s “Passion” is still a singular event from Garden to Ascension, rather than there being a temporal “moment” when he effected redemption.

bump

 

[frjohnmorris]

Basically, when you use the “quote” button, you’ll sometimes want to delete a portion of the post you’re quoting. Just be careful not to delete the beginning … the " QUOTE=…]"

Thanks for your help. I think that I have figured it out.

Fr. John