Shouldn't there be more respect for the sacrament of Marriage?

[sisterofbattle]

My son has continually dishonored his father and me since he started a relationship with our deacon’s daughter. At the time he was living at home he was continually fornicating at the deacon’s house. Feeling this was scandalous we asked our deacon to help make sure our son left his house at a decent hour. The deacon became offended. Then everything went downhill from there. We have had to endure a filthy mouth from the girl and threats of not ever seeing our future grandchildren. Our son had told us that she had been diagnosed before with BPD and has attempted suicide before. We had to get our son out of the house because of the friction. Now in the last 5 months he has had nothing to do with us.
Our son has told our extended family that he’s engaged to be married now. This craziness has been going on for two years now. We can’t give this sham our blessing!

Our deacon told me that he performed his first daughter’s wedding knowing that she was already living with her fiance. Our concern is that our son will just go up north where our deacon is from and get married there.

the code of canon law a under Grave Lack of discretion of Judgment (Canon 1095 2) Did family and friends express serious concerns about this marriage and did you choose to ignore them? *

Would the church knowingly approve the marriage of a couple like this? I just don’t understand if they would. Shouldn’t there be more respect for the sacrament of Marriage?

 

[1ke]

We can’t give this sham our blessing!

I am sorry that you are having difficulty within your family and with your son’s chosen spouse. He does not need your blessing, however, in his choice of spouse presuming he is an adult. Although, it would certainly be nice if everyone got along.

If his fiance has bipolar disorder, I hope you can come to understand this mental illness and to navigate it as it can be medicated but not cured.

Our deacon told me that he performed his first daughter’s wedding knowing that she was already living with her fiance.

While living together is certainly not a good situation, it is also not an impediment to marriage. Marriage rectifies this sinful situation.

Our concern is that our son will just go up north where our deacon is from and get married there.

That is quite possible if there is no reconciliation between you and him.

the code of canon law a under Grave Lack of discretion of Judgment (Canon 1095 2) Did family and friends express serious concerns about this marriage and did you choose to ignore them? *

The code of canon law 1095 states :

Can.* 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:

1/ those who lack the sufficient use of reason;

2/ those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;

3/ those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.

I am not sure where you got the question in italics, perhaps a website that gives guidance to those seeking a declaration of nullity. If so, I think you misunderstand it. It is simply not the case that your objection to the girl or the mariage creates or indicates an impediment to valid marriage.

Would the church knowingly approve the marriage of a couple like this?

Like what? You haven’t given any real indication of a problem other than you do not like the girl and that your son was supposedly disrespectful to you-- neither of which is an actual impediment to marriage.

Her possible bipolar disorder is likely the greatest of possible impediments to marriage. However, it is not necessarily an impediment. The premarital investigation would cover this.

I just don’t understand if they would.

Perhaps you should explain a little more clearly why you think them incapable of marrying?

Shouldn’t there be more respect for the sacrament of Marriage?

Again, what is it you find out of line with Church teaching?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I would just like to point out that BPD usually refers to Borderline Personality Disorder, not Bipolar Disorder. Granted, the OP may have meant bipolar.

But I really don’t see the question in the OP. I see that she’s rude to you and that they’re having premarital sex, but you don’t want them to fix that by getting married. What is it that you want? What do you hope to gain? Do you want to mend the relationship with your son? Do you understand that to do that you will have to extend the olive branch to his fiance?

 

[1ke]

I would just like to point out that BPD usually refers to Borderline Personality Disorder, not Bipolar Disorder. Granted, the OP may have meant bipolar.

Ah, yes, it could indeed stand for borderline personality disorder… and if it does that is a very serious mental illness. While we can counsel someone against a relationship with a mentally ill person, if in the end they decide to get married then they must be prepared to uphold their vows for better OR worse.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Just a thought, this might get more responses and be better suited for the Family Life section.

 

[sisterofbattle]

Please forgive me for seeming so vague. Being new to this site I tried to make my question short. I could go on for a very long time with our concerns. I’m sure they would seem trivial to some. But our family feels like a part of our body is missing. Isn’t that how the Church should feel also?

My question stems from the dishonor that our son has shown and still shows to this day. If he is ignoring the commandment of dishonoring his parents and intends to keep dishonoring them, why would the church let him get married in the church? Marriage doesn’t make all sin just go away or take away the responsibilities that we have toward our Parents. Isn’t that what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees? Were not the pharisees doing all kinds of outward stuff but wouldn’t take care of their parents? Doesn’t sin go away only after we have repented(turned from)? Not only do we see the lack of concern in the world but we have received that same lack from our leaders.

We have told our son and this girl that we could love her if she would give us a chance.(we still love her as a human being) But after every reconciled attempt we are threatened by her that we won’t see our grandchildren. We have offered to pay for counselling for the whole family. That’s when they cut off all communication.

Before, She has barged into our house yelling and cursing the rest of our family. She has put our family members in harms way while driving her car like she was going to kill them. She has cursed us and called us very demeaning names to our friends so that it would definitely get back to us. And all this was done in the presence of our son while he just looks on. Not to mention the sexual advances toward his and our friends. Most of this stuff is textbook borderline personality disorder. Is this a good example of Lack of Discernment on his part?

Our family was a very happy and non drama family until a few years ago. Our children have told us (even our son) that they have always felt loved and cared for.
And again it’s not that we don’t like this girl. She has seen to it that his family could not like her. She has not given us a chance to even get to know her.

After asking our deacon for help and after his explosive behavior. Our son still went to his home many times and stayed the night. The deacon does everything to avoid my family at mass.

We have mourned for our son for almost 19 months now. As it seems now we have most likely lost him. But we do have our faith, prayers, the sacraments and God’s word to comfort us. But sadly we don’t see it with the church. We are new converts to the Church. Some big reasons for our conversion was the Authority of the Church and marriage .

Why does it seem like the leaders don’t take scripture serious?

Such as:

1 Timothy 3
New King James Version (NKJV)
Qualifications of Overseers

3 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,** but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Qualifications of Deacons

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

But we are Hippocrates ourselves. Our deacon has offended us and we haven’t gone to him with another person out of fear of making things worse. Because we are put into a box of overbearing parents who just don’t like their son’s girlfriend, we haven’t done what scripture says. It’s like we’re told,“that’s just the way things are. You don’t really need to do what scripture says. Your just a trouble maker.”

Matthew 18:15-17 (ESV) “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Does this pertain to us? Who else would we bring with us? Who would be the church if he didn’t listen?

We tried attending a different parish where we had to drive 45 min. But we came to reconcile to the fact that even though we feel shamed by our sons behavior we haven’t done anything wrong.

I guess my title question should have been Shouldn’t there be more respect for God’s word? Or shouldn’t sin be taken more serious? Is that a protestant type of question?**

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I guess I don’t understand. Are you saying that the church shouldn’t marry them because he disrespects you? Most, if not all people violate the 10 commandments in some way many times throughout even a year. If the church started turning them all down for marriage dare I say the Catholic population would evaporate.

If you see red flags with their relationship (and based on what you wrote I certainly do) that’s one thing. But if he’s made it clear that he doesn’t want to hear about it there’s not much you can do.

 

[1ke]

No, being disrespectful to you is not an impediment to valid marriage. It is unfortunate, and I hope he will go to the sacrament reconciliation and also reconcile with you.

If you have serious reasons to object to any marriage that might be in the works, I suggest you go to your pastor not the deacon. It is his daughter, so he would have difficulty being objective. The pastor has the final say on the freedom to marry and it is very rare but possible he would put the brakes on the marriage, or require counseling beforehand, if a real, serious impediment exists.

But, I think you have a wrong understanding of the level and type of involvement “the Church” has in the lives of its members. What, exactly, is it that you expect the Church to “do”?

 

[joanofarc2008]

The Canons you refer to are used when examining the validity of marriage after a marriage has been ended. Or in the case of a couple discerning marriage if there is an issue of mental health a couple will be sent to a counselor and this will be hashed out and this will become part of the pre-marriage file. This is not your business. This is between the bride and the groom. You certainly wouldn’t want your daughter in law seeing your psychological records, would you?

 

[PennyinCanada]

How do you know for sure that your son was having sex with his girlfriend under the deacon’s roof? How do you know that maybe the deacon or his wife invited your son to sleep on the couch for the night because maybe he had a few beers (enjoyed the wine and hospitality) and it was a kind and loving thing to do? That family may have been very charitable and kind toward your son with an invitation to stay the night. To accuse the kids of sleeping together may have been very upsetting to the deacon, to your son, and to the daughter, who may have been behaving in a proper manner.

If indeed the girl has BPD, the situation may have required great delicacy and tact, and really, if you had concerns, it should have been spoken to your son privately without the girlfriend present. Assuming he is an adult, there is little you can do. He is an adult and will come before God to answer for his behavior. It’s time to let go and let God. Little birds grow up and leave the nest and you might find they can fly very far away if they decide to.

If the young lady threatened that you would not see your grandchildren, it seems there has been some harsh words spoken by both sides, not just her. They have said in word and action that this is the line and do not cross it. It’s up to you how you wish to respond. Do you agree to the line? You’ll have to if you want to mend broken bridges.

 

[sisterofbattle]

Yes we ARE SURE of all that has gone on. This couple is not shy, she loves to give details. Remember she’s already been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. The medical world believes it to be serious.
We have tried to reconcile. Our priest has already been informed from the beginning of all this mess. I don’t know if he’s done anything or not. I haven’t asked. We have been walking on eggshells since our deacon’s temper tantrum. Try to take us out of that box of being the over controlling parents. (St Monica prayed, followed and annoyed St Augustine for a long time. lol)

I don’t think that all this stuff is relevant and I feel like we are just gossiping or sort of a voyeurism. That why the vagueness in the first draft.

Why would the church marry someone when there is already grounds for an annulment. When all his friends and family have expressed serious concerns about this marriage and he chooses to ignore them, why marry them.(Canon Law 1095 2*) Example. Would the church marry a couple that refused to be open to children? Or if they planned on having an open marriage? Or if they refused to raise their children in the Catholic faith. Look at the sin. I know I’ve sinned. Everyone has. And sin is serious. As long as our son is living this way he’s living in sin. There’s no wanting to repent. They feel no need to. They can just go up north where she used to live and have her dad marry her. Maybe I need to talk to a Cannon Lawyer on this one.

When did Honor your Father and Mother not become a serious commandment? Maybe around the same time murdering our children became less serious. Or sex outside of marriage. Everyone does it though. You must have done it when you were young, so then it’s okay if I do it? Not only will sin send you to Hell, but it will mess up your life, which affects your loved ones.

I may not know much. But this I know. God’s way is the best way!

 

[joanofarc2008]

Adult children are not called to obey. They are called to consider what is being said and then respectfully follow or not follow that advice.

 

[1ke]

Why would the church marry someone when there is already grounds for an annulment. When all his friends and family have expressed serious concerns about this marriage and he chooses to ignore them, why marry them.(Canon Law 1095 2*)

“The Church” would not marry a couple with an impediment to a valid marriage, until and unless the impediment ceases.

However, you and his friends objecting does not actually create an impediment. It is a judgment call regarding lack of due discretion, and anything dealing with mental illness needs evaluation by professionals. You do not know what has taken place in the privacy of meetings with the priest. Perhaps he has determined that there is no impediment after working with them.

You can register your concerns with your priest. But it will be his determination regarding the existence of any impediment.

They can just go up north where she used to live and have her dad marry her.

Not without permission of their pastor.

Maybe I need to talk to a Cannon Lawyer on this one.

You can contact the St. Joseph Foundation for guidance: stjosephcanonlaw.com/

Borderline Personality Disorder is quite serious. I do not know if the Church has any specific guidelines regarding whether or not that creates an impediment to her entering a valid marriage.

When did Honor your Father and Mother not become a serious commandment?

Your son is an adult. You cannot take his choices onto yourself. Nor can you attempt to control him or command him by using the 4th commandment. Please read all of the section on the 4th commandment in the Catechism, particularly:

2217 Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them.

2230 When they become adults, children have the right and duty to choose their profession and state of life. They should assume their new responsibilities within a trusting relationship with their parents, willingly asking and receiving their advice and counsel. Parents should be careful not to exert pressure on their children either in the choice of a profession or in that of a spouse. This necessary restraint does not prevent them - quite the contrary from giving their children judicious advice, particularly when they are planning to start a family.

 

[Andre1000]

If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.(Exodus 22:16)
Your son did this so he should marry her (traditionally this has been confirmed by the people of the Church).

 

[joanofarc2008]

If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.(Exodus 22:16)
Your son did this so he should marry her (traditionally this has been confirmed by the people of the Church).

Wow, I think Christ came not to change the law but to fulfill it, I also think this old Judaic law. Shall we also burn our holocausts at the altar when we sin as well? And no, I am not advocating pre-marital sex, but I am also not advocating marriage as a penance for pre-marital sex.

 

[PennyinCanada]

If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.(Exodus 22:16)
Your son did this so he should marry her (traditionally this has been confirmed by the people of the Church).

I think the Church has given this as a reason to grant an annulment, the young man was pressured into marriage because the girl was pregnant.

 

[m_crane]

Wow, sounds like you have a serious problem your son is making so poor moral choices. First he is not living up to his future marriage vows by fornicating before marriage.

And what kind of deacon allows his precious daughter, even if she does have mental illness, to fornicate under his own roof? Please talk to the Priest in charge of this man before he scandalizes the Church further with his sins of omission.
If the Priest won’t address the scandal the deacon is causing by allowing this to continue in his home, then talk to the Bishop about the Priest. There are enough problems in our Church without stuff like this. He needs handle his household, not ignore his daughters behavior.

As for your son, if you put him out of your home over this, you did your best. (I had to do this to mine too) Now pray that he comes to his senses and keep lines of communication open. And if that girls comes around cursing again , call the police on her. That should embarrass her father when he has to pick his daughter up at the police station. He sounds like a terrible parent who is doing the wrong thing for his daughter.