Show me one verse that says man must do somthing to be saved

[guanophore]

This post was taken from a thread where it was off topic.

Not one time. Faith is never considered a work man does when in relationship to salvation.

I think you are suffering from a misunderstanding of 'work", DL. In fact, faith is THE work that God requires for salvation.

John 6:28-30
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

It is a “work of God”, though, that man does. How can this be? God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. When the Spirit draws,and man chooses to respond in faith, grace mixes with that faith to produce salvation.

Do you really want to have all the examples in Scripture to “believe” posted? Placing our faith in God is something we must do in order to be saved.

 Show me one verse that says man must do somthing to be saved. Have you read Titus 3:5?:thumbsup:

Salvation is not based on our works of righteousness, but upon God’s grace. It is his grace, through faith, that the works of righteousness are produced in us. These Holy Works that God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them, are not to be separated from the grace, through faith, by which they are produced in us.

This is why Catholics reject the heresies of “faith alone, grace alone,” etc. Grace and faith are never alone. They are always accompanied by works that befit repentance.

 

[CntrySngr72]

Wouldn’t James 2 also be of benefit in this discussion?

James 2:26 “…faith without works is dead.”

 

[MrS]

Philippians 2: 12-13
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”

James 1:22
“But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”

Romans 2:13
“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

1Cor 3: 8-9
“Each shall receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God’s fellow workers…”

Matt 25:46
“And those (who fail to do good works) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into internal life.”

 

[guanophore]

Wouldn’t James 2 also be of benefit in this discussion?

James 2:26 “…faith without works is dead.”

I must confess, I am baffled how those who espouse "faith alone’ can dispense with this passage. It seems clear to me that saving faith is faith that works, faith that obeys. When we look at the “hall of faith fame” in Heb. 11, it seems clear that all those who conquered “by faith” did so by taking actions of various sorts.

On the other hand, it helps to explain why Luther called the book of James an “epistle of straw”, and wanted it taken out of the NT.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Matt 25:46
“And those (who fail to do good works) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into internal life.”

I’ve never even seen an attempt at this one (has anyone else?)… Those that were saved were just as confused as the ones who were sent to eternal punishment… Both groups knew the Son of God as Lord and savior, but only one group did the “works” required to be allowed into heaven… He gives several reasons for them being sent to eternal punishment, and none of those reasons include not “believing” in him, or lacking “faith”… They were all about the things they failed to do for the least of God’s people.

SD

 

[Tezza]

What I’m trying to figure out is why non-Catholis think the magesterium of the Cathoic Church doesn’t know what’s in the Bible. For goodness sake, the Catholic Church discerned what writings were indeed the inspired Word of God and declared the cannon of the NT, authoritatively. If Catholic teaching went against scripture, don’t you think we would’ve just left it out in the first place?!

 

[SD_Catholic]

What I’m trying to figure out is why non-Catholis think the magesterium of the Cathoic Church doesn’t know what’s in the Bible. For goodness sake, the Catholic Church discerned what writings were indeed the inspired Word of God and declared the cannon of the NT, authoritatively. If Catholic teaching went against scripture, don’t you think we would’ve just left it out in the first place?!

LOL!.. I’ve soooo often wondered this myself.

SD

 

[guanophore]

What I’m trying to figure out is why non-Catholis think the magesterium of the Cathoic Church doesn’t know what’s in the Bible. For goodness sake, the Catholic Church discerned what writings were indeed the inspired Word of God and declared the cannon of the NT, authoritatively. If Catholic teaching went against scripture, don’t you think we would’ve just left it out in the first place?!

Most Protestants dont’ know that the Bible came from the Catholic Church. Most have never heard of the “Magesterium”. Most don’t know that the CC derived the canon.

Then there are those millions of Catholics out there that do not know their scriptures, giving the impression that Catholics are scriptural dunces.

 

[Tezza]

Most Protestants dont’ know that the Bible came from the Catholic Church. Most have never heard of the “Magesterium”. Most don’t know that the CC derived the canon.

Then there are those millions of Catholics out there that do not know their scriptures, giving the impression that Catholics are scriptural dunces.

Agreed and agreed. Notice I didn’t say Catholics know what is in the Bible, rather magisterium

Those who challenge our beliefs on this forum seem to have heard once or twice that the CC formalized the cannon of NT. Does it fall on deaf ears? Is it believed to be a lie? If the attitue is–ok, fine. So God used Catholic Bishops to formalize the NT. Big deal. Now, in this verse…To which, again I say, WE KNOW WHAT’S IN THE BIBLE!!

 

[kctigerhawk]

This is why Catholics reject the heresies of “faith alone, grace alone,” etc. Grace and faith are never alone. They are always accompanied by works that befit repentance.

I would like to give you a chance to clarify this statement. It appears that you are treading dangerously close to Semi-Pelagianism.

We are indeed saved by grace alone. It is only by God’s grace that we receive the gift of faith. It is only be God’s grace that we are able to respond to this gift and accept it, and it is only by God’s grace that we are able to perform the works of which we speak.

Must we respond to His grace? Yes, but it is only by God’s grace that we are able to do so.

I would also point you to the book “The Salvation Controversy” by Jimmy Akin in which he explains that the phrase “faith alone” does not necessarily conflict with Catholic teaching. It depends a great deal on what is meant by “faith”. However, because of its wide range of meanings, “faith alone” is not generally an appropriate phrase to use, especially in apologetics.

May the Lord bless and keep you

Doug

 

[Mark77]

Works are not our efforts, they are purely the result of our submission to the Grace and Love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

“The Lord has heard my supplication, the Lord accepts my prayer” (Ps 6:9).

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Crumpy]

Somewhere St. Paul says something that sounds like all we need is faith.

The Catholic Church subscribes to the idea that we must ultimately look at all of scripture for it to make sense, and that we follow the tradition of the teaching of the Catholic Church.

the whole controversy about “faith alone” is tied up with the idea of “scripture alone”. The latter is a rejection of the teaching authority of the Catholic Church and the teaching of Jesus in “the great commission” of Mt. 28. The LORD did not say it was enough to pass out Bibles, He said the Church had to “teach” all nations.

This is a concept inherited from the Old Testament and Judaism, wherein the study of Torah (instruction) is considered one’s primary life work.

Read Deut 6:4ff and you see that studying by yourself and teaching your children are primal commands, to put the knowledge of God “on” our hearts, so that eventually it will be “in” our hearts.

You can’t, except for the sake of argument, separate knowing God, loving God, and serving Him in this world. Doesn’t God, bless His Name, look at us in our totality, knowing us more deeply than we know ourselves? How dare we mistreat His revelation this way?
Has anybody forgotten about the judgment that awaits us for all that we have done and all that we have not done in our life?

 

[guanophore]

Agreed and agreed. Notice I didn’t say Catholics know what is in the Bible, rather magisterium

Yes, I did notice that. It is just that I think individual Catholics sometimes give the Church a bad reputation.

Those who challenge our beliefs on this forum seem to have heard once or twice that the CC formalized the cannon of NT. Does it fall on deaf ears? Is it believed to be a lie? If the attitue is–ok, fine. So God used Catholic Bishops to formalize the NT. Big deal. Now, in this verse…To which, again I say, WE KNOW WHAT’S IN THE BIBLE!!

It seems a lot of them think we are off our nut. Since they don’t recognize the CC in the NT, they think that the CC did not “start” until Constantine, or whatever other misinformation they have been given.

 

[guanophore]

I would like to give you a chance to clarify this statement. It appears that you are treading dangerously close to Semi-Pelagianism.

No, I was not suggesting that we are saved by our works, or by our hope. However, the Apostolic Teaching is clear:

1 Cor 13:12-14:1
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Our separated brethren often purport that we are saved by “faith alone, by grace alone”. This is erroneous because saving faith never exists “alone”. Where saving faith is present, it always manifests itself in fruit.

 We are indeed saved by grace alone.  It is only by God's grace that we receive the gift of faith.  It is only be God's grace that we are able to respond to this gift and accept it, and it is only by God's grace that we are able to perform the works of which we speak.

I agree, but this is not what our separated brethren mean when they use this term. When they say “grace alone”, they mean that there is no obligation on the part of the person to respond, to accept, to engage in the works that the grace intends to produce. I think most of this stems from a deficient understanding of salvation. Many Evangelicals believe that we are saved once in time, for all time. However, the Apostles taught that salvation begins when we are justified by grace through faith in baptism. At that point, we begin, by the grace of God working in us, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is also a reason that faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by hope. The Apostles taught that we do not acquire our salvation in this life, but the next. We look forward in joyful hope to That Day, when we will be judged for the thoughts and intentions of our hearts.

Must we respond to His grace? Yes, but it is only by God’s grace that we are able to do so.

Those heavily influenced by Calvanism deny this. They believe that the soul is regenerated first, then the person comes to faith. Born again > then faith.

I would also point you to the book “The Salvation Controversy” by Jimmy Akin in which he explains that the phrase “faith alone” does not necessarily conflict with Catholic teaching. It depends a great deal on what is meant by “faith”. However, because of its wide range of meanings, “faith alone” is not generally an appropriate phrase to use, especially in apologetics.

May the Lord bless and keep you

Doug

Indeed, a great read.

 

[Plato34]

My friend, a souther baptist, has used the john quote about how all you need is faith to enter the kingdom of heaven all the time. We can argue forever and I can’t win because I don’t know scripture quite as well as him. Thanks to everyone for giving me the scriptural edge that he will respect so I can lay our controversy in the dust.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Here is my opinion–if it is wrong tell me what is wrong with it:

We are GRACE-FULLY saved by that faith which CONTINUES THROUGH “God willed Works” unto death.

 

[Tezza]

Yes, I did notice that. It is just that I think individual Catholics sometimes give the Church a bad reputation.

I can take credit there. Thank God I wasn’t actually challenged before I started studying up on scripture

It seems a lot of them think we are off our nut. Since they don’t recognize the CC in the NT, they think that the CC did not “start” until Constantine, or whatever other misinformation they have been given.

Yeah, the CC was “invinted” by Constantine. But wasn’t the Councile of Nicea in 325? And wasn’t the NT cannon formally proclaimed at the end of the 4th century? Doesn’t it prove that the CC had been "invinted’ in time to declare the books of the NT? Even with this historical falsity, we still get to take credit for the Bible.

An aside, do you think any of our protestant brethren know that the original KJV (1611) had the 7 books we “added” to the Bible? Just curious.

 

[guanophore]

Here is my opinion–if it is wrong tell me what is wrong with it:

We are GRACE-FULLY saved by that faith which CONTINUES THROUGH “God willed Works” unto death.

I LIKE that!

 

[SD_Catholic]

Yeah, the CC was “invinted” by Constantine. But wasn’t the Councile of Nicea in 325? And wasn’t the NT cannon formally proclaimed at the end of the 4th century? Doesn’t it prove that the CC had been "invinted’ in time to declare the books of the NT? Even with this historical falsity, we still get to take credit for the Bible.

An aside, do you think any of our protestant brethren know that the original KJV (1611) had the 7 books we “added” to the Bible? Just curious.

I’m sure some do, but probably not most… as guanophore pointed out also, I’m sure most don’t realize how the NT canon was formed either (but then again many Catholics probably don’t either)… This reminds me of the recent ‘Journey Home’ episode on EWTN, where the guy was a former Presbyterian seminarian who said the turning point for his change of heart was when he studied the history of the Bible and learned about the process of accepting a canon (realizing it took someone or something with authority to decide on those books and what they meant in order to include them).

SD

 

[Shannon9791]

Just to toss this out there, have you noticed none of those who we were debating with has followed us to this new thread?