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Tezza
Guest
I just saw that one!! Reason and logic prevail:thumbsup:I’m sure some do, but probably not most… as guanophore pointed out also, I’m sure most don’t realize how the NT canon was formed either (but then again many Catholics probably don’t either)… This reminds me of the recent ‘Journey Home’ episode on EWTN, where the guy was a former Presbyterian seminarian who said the turning point for his change of heart was when he studied the history of the Bible and learned about the process of accepting a canon (realizing it took someone or something with authority to decide on those books and what they meant in order to include them).
SD
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kctigerhawk
Guest
There is no single understanding of this phrase among non-Catholic Christians. There are many that would strongly disagree with your characterization of their beliefs.
I am glad to hear you enjoyed “The Salvation Controversy”. I will leave you with a couple of quotes.
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Doug
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Louie1983
Guest
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
Protestants also have no concept of what happens to a person who refuses to do a “God willed work” and then dies.
The answer is Hell.
The answer is Hell.
G
guanophore
Guest
I don’t think this is necessarily true. I think that God has many works that He has prepared from eternity, that we should walk in them. Many of us “miss” opportunities. His grace still covers us. Think about many of the saints, beginning with St. Paul the Apostle. God did not intend that he should persecute the Church. God stopped him in his tracks. Paul, because of his preconceived notions about 'messiah", did not accept the gospel when he heard it. Instead, he held the cloaks of those who stoned Stephen. He failed to do many “God willed works” prior to his conversion, as we all have. This does not mean we will go to hell.
I see your point, though, that the failure to walk in His commandments will result in eternal perdition.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
I didn’t make my statement clear.
If God wills us to do a particular work and we know He has willed it and we choose to disobey God and not DO the work that He has willed then we have mortally sinned and are in a state of mortal sin.
If we then unrepentedly die then we go to Hell.
Why? Because we have raised an impediment to God’s grace and His grace does not CONTINUE through his God willed works unto death where our eternal abode is fixed.
The place where many get salvation and justification wrong is in thinking that it is an instantaneous only event.
God said He was “I AM”.
“I AM” is all about continuance.
Salvation and justification aren’t things that you “HAVE” they are things that you ARE!
If you mortally sin Jesus is not in you. If He isn’t in you when you die you go to Hell because you ARE Hellish!
If you venially sin Jesus is still within you–you eventually make it to Heaven because you ARE Heavenly–and why? Because Jesus lives within you.
Justification by “faith alone” is an attempt by the devil to SEVER continuance of grace.
If justification is a DISCRETE Instaneous only event–then a person has no need to continue it–if they believe that then they aren’t worried about whether Jesus at any time is either in them or not in them–they figure they’ll make it to Heaven because they been branded with that instaneous only justification so they will be saved.
Jesus didn’t die on the cross and suffer what He suffered so He could only INSTANEOUSLY brand us into Heaven–He suffered and died so that we could continually live because He lived in us!
The great NOTHING that men do in regards to their salvation is not CHOOSING salvation but doing nothing to IMPEDE God’s grace.
When we cooperate with our free wills by not IMPEDEING God’s grace then that grace will CONTINUE through the works that God wills.
No man initiated works or works of the law will save.
“God willed works” are part of the continuing process that saves us NOT because of the works themselves but because God CONTINUALLY lives in us as His works are done.
Faith is not “ALONE” anymore than God is instananteously only.
God is instanteous–but God is also before and God is after and God continues.
The break of that continuance is MORTAL SIN.
Mortal sin doesn’t mean Hell if we repent–it does mean Hell if we die in that state.
The reason that “Few” will be saved is because most will die in the breakage of God’s continuance in them.
“Faith alone” is the rallying cry of the devil so that man will not worry about such a breakage.
The devil doesn’t want God alive in us–if he can only get us to cast God out before we die–if he can only get us to break continuance when death occurs then he is glad because we will permanently be dead to God.
That’s why Jesus warned us that our death comes as a thief in the night.
There would be no need of that warning if justification were an instantaneously only event!
The “something” that man must do in order to be saved is DO NOTHING to impede God’s grace.
Practically that will mean DOING “God willed works” not by positive choice but by surrendering our wills CONTINUALLY until we die to Him and His will!
As Jesus said “Not My will but Thy will be done”.
It was the ONLY way for Jesus and it’s the only way for us!
If God wills us to do a particular work and we know He has willed it and we choose to disobey God and not DO the work that He has willed then we have mortally sinned and are in a state of mortal sin.
If we then unrepentedly die then we go to Hell.
Why? Because we have raised an impediment to God’s grace and His grace does not CONTINUE through his God willed works unto death where our eternal abode is fixed.
The place where many get salvation and justification wrong is in thinking that it is an instantaneous only event.
God said He was “I AM”.
“I AM” is all about continuance.
Salvation and justification aren’t things that you “HAVE” they are things that you ARE!
If you mortally sin Jesus is not in you. If He isn’t in you when you die you go to Hell because you ARE Hellish!
If you venially sin Jesus is still within you–you eventually make it to Heaven because you ARE Heavenly–and why? Because Jesus lives within you.
Justification by “faith alone” is an attempt by the devil to SEVER continuance of grace.
If justification is a DISCRETE Instaneous only event–then a person has no need to continue it–if they believe that then they aren’t worried about whether Jesus at any time is either in them or not in them–they figure they’ll make it to Heaven because they been branded with that instaneous only justification so they will be saved.
Jesus didn’t die on the cross and suffer what He suffered so He could only INSTANEOUSLY brand us into Heaven–He suffered and died so that we could continually live because He lived in us!
The great NOTHING that men do in regards to their salvation is not CHOOSING salvation but doing nothing to IMPEDE God’s grace.
When we cooperate with our free wills by not IMPEDEING God’s grace then that grace will CONTINUE through the works that God wills.
No man initiated works or works of the law will save.
“God willed works” are part of the continuing process that saves us NOT because of the works themselves but because God CONTINUALLY lives in us as His works are done.
Faith is not “ALONE” anymore than God is instananteously only.
God is instanteous–but God is also before and God is after and God continues.
The break of that continuance is MORTAL SIN.
Mortal sin doesn’t mean Hell if we repent–it does mean Hell if we die in that state.
The reason that “Few” will be saved is because most will die in the breakage of God’s continuance in them.
“Faith alone” is the rallying cry of the devil so that man will not worry about such a breakage.
The devil doesn’t want God alive in us–if he can only get us to cast God out before we die–if he can only get us to break continuance when death occurs then he is glad because we will permanently be dead to God.
That’s why Jesus warned us that our death comes as a thief in the night.
There would be no need of that warning if justification were an instantaneously only event!
The “something” that man must do in order to be saved is DO NOTHING to impede God’s grace.
Practically that will mean DOING “God willed works” not by positive choice but by surrendering our wills CONTINUALLY until we die to Him and His will!
As Jesus said “Not My will but Thy will be done”.
It was the ONLY way for Jesus and it’s the only way for us!
P
Peter_Dawson
Guest
Re: Show me one verse that says man must do somthing to be saved
Try these verses…
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and eed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46.
Try these verses…
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and eed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46.
M
milimac
Guest
There is a discussion of this in the Knights of Columbus Luke E. Hart Series, What Catholics Believe, Section 1: Faith, written by Peter Kreeft. Check out paragraph 14:
“…both Protestants and Catholics are beginning to
see that their two apparently contradictory positions may
have been saying the same essential thing in different
words, words that seemed contradictory but perhaps were not.”
Checkout paragraph 14 for the full discussion. Perhaps there is room for more agreement than what we’ve allowed, if we define our terms up front.
As an aside, the Luke E. Hart series is freely available as downloadable mp3s or pdfs:
What Catholics Believe
How Catholics Worship
How Catholics Live
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