Show me using scripture that Christians WILL be in the tribulation!

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Boxerdog

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Citing only scripture, I would like one of you fine CA members to show me that Christians will be in the tribulation and will not be raptured in a pre-trib rapture. thank you
 
Not sure what you consider the “tribulation” but Christians endure great trials, persecution, and hate during a time of many false-Christs. Then Jesus will come once for the final judgment.
cf. Matthew 24
 
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” Mk 13:24-27

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels witha a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Mt 24:29-31

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:” Mt 25:31-32

“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” Lk 21:25-28

John Darby came up with the pre-trib idea and brought it forth in 1832 at the Powerscourt Conference. He believed it was a necessary belief to give Christians hope. He is lauded for bringing forth “hidden” truths of the Bible and is widely believed to be the father of Dispensationalism and the Plymouth Brethren. (I’m really not sure why these truths were undiscovered since the time of Christ, but there we are.)
 
Mat 24:38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Mat 24:42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what houryour Lord is coming.

If you notice in verse 39 it says that people were ‘taken away’ when the flood came and we know that they were killed by the water. Then it says in verse 41 that one will be taken and one left when Jesus returns. So it’s saying that as in the days of Noah, men will be taken from the earth. Meaning, killed… not raptured.

God bless.
 
These two verses describe the same event.

Matthew 24:29 31
29 **“Immediately after the distress of those days **”‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 "At that time **the sign of the Son of Man will appear **]in the sky, and all **the nations **of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (NIV)

1Thessalonians 4:15 18
15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of **the archangel **and with **the trumpet **call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, **we who are still alive **and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. (NIV)

Paul specifically referred back to “the Lord’s own word” as the authoritative reference point for his teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4. Jesus said his coming and gathering of the elect is “after the tribulation” (the distress of those days)
 
It is my understanding that scripture supports only one more “coming” of the Lord. For there to be a “rapture” of true believers only would mean a third one would happen for the remainder of people. Also, no where does it say that believers will escape tribulation. In fact, lol, we are told that we will be in the middle of it all!
 
Rev 6 has people during the tribulation who were killed for their faith in Jesus.
 
Yeah but Daniel people can also repent during the tribulation… so it could be just that.

Although, I don’t believe in the secret rapture… despite my church believing in it.
 
Understanding wether christians will go thru the tribulation is made easier if one understands the jewish wedding arrangements of Jesus’ time. These were arranged by the father of the groom with the father of the bride, where the couple became bethroded to ea. other, the bride received a dowry and the groom returned to the father’s house to make the proper preparations (usually a year, check Mary’s betrothal to Joseph) and the groom returned for the bride and the time appointed by his father, going with a festive procesional ‘caravan’ to pick the bride home and bring her to his home for the wedding ceremony,consumation of the marriage and a festive celebration (wedding of Cana) that may last a wk. or longer depending on the wealth of the family.
In that same way Jesus came, as the bible says at the time appointed by the Father, became betrothed to His Bride, the Church, and returned to Heaven to “make a place for you…and I will come mysef and receive you unto Myself” as written in John 14:2,3. The Book of The Rev. has the letters to the churches but notice that the Church is no longer present on earth after chapter four and is found from then on in Heaven,around the throne of God and worshipping Him with the other heavenly hosts. In ch.19 the wedding ceremony occurs in Heaven and in ch20 starts the festive celebration on earth that will last a millennium with the Jews being the guests.Did not John the Baptist call himself a friend of the groom? Did not Jesus respond to the issue of his disciples not fasting while the groom was with them? Therefore, in order for the Church to be in Heaven the Groom must pick her up as stated in 1Thes 4:16,17 and 1Cor15:50-57. Notice that the Time of Tribulation judgments starts in Rev ch 6 after the Church is in Heaven and does not end till ch 19. A wise groom will not put his bride thru a beating before he marries her and neither does Jesus with His Bride.
The event of ‘snatching up’ is called the rapture and a clue is given in the passage in Thes. that He comes and meets His Church in the air, so that is not officially His 2nd Coming which requires setting foot on the earth. The millennium is the duration of the time of celebration when Jesus will reign as King on earth and the curse will be lifted from humanity and all creation. The bible describes a millennial Mountain,River, Temple,Priesthood etc etc in Ezequiel and it is not possible to spiritualize or negate all of these prophecies since a good deal of that book was involved in the detailed description of these events. That is why the Church will not go thru the Tribulation, a reassuring thought to hold on to.
The LORD is my strength and my song, and is become my Salvation Psalm 118:14
 
I’ll answer the way I always answer when people as me rapture questions:

“Sorry, we don’t use words like tribulation and pre-trib rapture. Could you translate it to biblical terminology.”
 
Reply to inquire by Jabronie : word tribulation is in New American bible Mark 13:19,24 and in Matt 24:21 and used in Lk 21 as a section heading and described v23 as a terrible calamity and wrathful judgment .
The word rapture came into use by way of the latin ‘rapio’ used to translate the greek term of 1 Thes.4:17 ‘harpagesometha’ meaning to ‘catch up’. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate.

“But whenone does not work yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, hisfaith is credited as righteousness” Rom4:5
“…God credits righteousness apart from works” v.6

GOD BLESS.
 
Boxerdog, you have made the logical error of relying on scripture alone for your theology and doctrine. Scripture actually refutes the very idea of relying on scripture alone. My favorite verse refuting sola scriptura or the Protestant doctrine of “scripture alone” is this one:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 DRB Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

See also this page filled with scripture refuting the idea that all doctrine or theology must come from scripture alone:

scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
 
Nan_S said:
interesting. where did boxerdog go?
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It seems that he last posted on Thursday. Perhaps somebody needs to remind him of this thread? Perhaps he just simply forgot that he posted it? 🤷:confused:
 
I am back, thanks for the replies. I have read thigpens rapture trap and I do have olsens will Catholics be left behind. About a week ago I was having talking to someone about this topic and I needed info about the tribulation. thanks for the help!
 
Boxerdog said:
I am back, thanks for the replies. I have read thigpens rapture trap and I do have olsens will Catholics be left behind. About a week ago I was having talking to someone about this topic and I needed info about the tribulation. thanks for the help!
Click to expand...
I offer a humble apology for my suspicion. From time to time we get posters who treat this forum like fly fishermen - they cast out a challenge question and see if we bite.

I have Thigpen’s “The Rapture Trap” and Olsen’s “Will Catholics Be ‘Left Behind’” books myself. Thigpen’s is sweet and to-the-point - great for easy-to-understand responses that you can use when challenged. Olsen’s goes a lot more in depth and is heavily footnoted with supporting material.

I have a few very blunt practical arguments that usually shut down people who challenge me with end-times “will you be raptured” arguments.
  1. Revelation was written 2,000 years ago. For 2,000 years people have been looking at those end-times signs and matching them to events their own times. If you think the end-times signs are unique to our time, keep in mind that 2,000 years of people have thought the same thing, so get in line behind them.
  2. Jesus said He would come like a thief in the night, when all appears to be going well. If I am always prepared meet Jesus if I am hit and killed by a tractor-trailer on my way to and from work, I need not worry about whether I would qualify to be raptured.
    Lk 12:20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’
    Lk 12:39-40 But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would have been awake and would not have left his house to be broken into. You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour.
  3. How much time do you think remains before end-times precursor signs reach their crisis point and Jesus makes His appearance? I’m close to 50 years old. So as far as I’m personally concerned, it will probably be sometime in the next 50 years. For you it may be a little more or less. For some people it happened yesterday. Don’t you think that we should pay more attention to being prepared for our own “end times” than the world’s “end times”?
  4. The best trick the Devil ever performed was to convince people that he didn’t exist. The Devil’s second-best trick was to convince people that his evil was just an alternative life-style. If you convince yourself that the evil around you CAN’T be the end-times, because you haven’t been raptured yet, you’ll never recognize the anti-Christ who is in your midst right now.
In the last 10 years we’ve had global terrorism on a scale previously unimagined. We have radical religious groups hacking people to pieces and filming it for the world to see. We have teenagers posting homemade violent snuff-videos on YouTube. We have radical governments researching and building nuclear weapons to threaten their neighbors. If they succeed in their research, suicide bombers won’t care that the portable nukes they carry in their backpacks are leaking lethal amounts of radiation, so long as they live long enough to reach a crowded public place? Need I go on?
  1. In Revelation, the faithful church in Smyrna is specifically singled out with a message encouraging them to endure through the tribulation. If faithful Christians in Smyrna don’t escape tribulation, is there something special about modern Christians which makes them think that they will?
Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’
  1. Jesus, in a private discourse, told his disciples that they would undergo terrible tribulation, and then told them they would be on earth to see the events in Daniel’s visions. Are we somehow more blessed and more faithful than the Apostles themselves, that we should be raptured away from the tribulation when they had to endure it?
Mt 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”
  1. Something just occurred to me as I was typing this. If Daniel’s end-times visions were fulfilled in the lifetimes and events experienced by the Apostles, as the Gospel of Matthew tells us, isn’t it a little late for a pre-tribulation Rapture?
Hope this helps.
 
Addressing point 7 of response 19. The gospel of Matt. does not intimate that the prophcy of Daniel was totally fulfilled in AD70. Daniel’s prophecy has a double fulfillment, one that ocurresd in AD70 and the other one at a more distant future. Just taking Matt24 alone (both 24&25 are eschatological) the first 13 verses are certainly of apostolic time.From 14 on it addressess a more distant future. v15 refers to the abomination of desolation that occurred in ~BC164 by Antiochus IV Ephiphanes and references the desecration of the temple and is a shadow of the same by Antichrist. This was not an event of apostolic time. v.30 refers to 2nd coming of the Son of Man, visibly, in the clouds, also did not occur and there are no historical written accounts that it ever did. v. 34 talks about the generation in which it was to occur, and likewise, it was not apostolic times for similar reasons as above, but it references the generation living at the time of the future abomination of desolation. Finally, from verse 40 to 44 it addressess people disappearing or taken while working on the field or milling and no historical data is written in church history of apostolic times that it had occurred. We are warned to always be watchful and this certainly is the lesson that christians are to learn. Be ready!

To GOD be the Glory!
 
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