Shroud of Turin

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According to Barry someone must have cut a piece of the 1600 year old shroud and sold it for a relic,hmmm… So this left a nasty bare spot that Benford claimed was repaired by taking a nice new piece of herringbone linen that looks exactly like the shroud,This piece and the shroud edges were both unraveled and expertly woven together so that no one not even an expert could tell! Interesting hypothesis but it does not hold water.

Kind of reminds me of what Jesus said about sewing a new patch on an old garment but in this case the garment was REALLY old.
 
According to Barry someone must have cut a piece of the 1600 year old shroud and sold it for a relic,hmmm… So this left a nasty bare spot that Benford claimed was repaired by taking a nice new piece of herringbone linen that looks exactly like the shroud,This piece and the shroud edges were both unraveled and expertly woven together so that no one not even an expert could tell! Interesting hypothesis but it does not hold water.

Kind of reminds me of what Jesus said about sewing a new patch on an old garment but in this case the garment was REALLY old.
No, that’s not quite what happened, according to the hypothesis. Linen/cotton, remember. And microscopy, for examination. With micro-pics. And chemically identifiable dye. Which is among the hard words in Rogers’ paper.

Posts keep adding up.

GKC
 
No, that’s not quite what happened, according to the hypothesis. Linen/cotton, remember. And microscopy, for examination. With micro-pics. And chemically identifiable dye. Which is among the hard words in Rogers’ paper.

Posts keep adding up.

GKC
sorry GK,I watched a video of these ACTUAL people making the claims.Rogers even went as far as to say he has proof the manof the Shroud is the historical Jesus! Barry Shwortz(the official shroud photograper) also is positive the shroud belongs to Jesus. Funny thing though Barry is an Orthodox Jew who I am pretty certain does not see Jesus as the messiah or that he resurrected. I do not believe that is Jewish teaching.Benford is also on video making her claims.I am gald she did not start taking about pyramids and soulschools and little shroud fetuses
. sheesh.
 
GQ,it is pointless to read technical papers I havent a clue about. As far as I am concerned they may as well be writing in a foreign language.

The conclusion is very important because it contains the gist of what the author is trying to prove.
That’s like saying that if you want to read a large and complicated book, like ‘War and Peace’, you would only read the table of contents, the preface or the epilog, so you can just get the ‘gist’ of the story, without having to deal with all of those complicated plot twists that are way too hard to understand, right? Then, would you tell everyone that you read it and really understand what it was all about? Is that how you think people should read textbooks, too? 🤷
I tend to use logic and look for concrete proven facts not people making up their own methods for dating or proving that something is supernatural.That is not at all scientific.
If you can’t be bothered to read the whole thing, which is written in plain English that even I can understand with my 10th grade education, then you have not really done your homework, and can’t possibly claim to have an informed opinion on the facts. These papers are not written by people that are “making up their own methods for dating or proving that something is supernatural”. They are experts using modern scientific methods.
Reading is a good way to acquire knowledge but it is also can be a means of obfuscation.
Reading is not just ‘a way’, but it’s the most important way to acquire knowledge. As someone once said, “reading is fundamental” to learning anything.
You present too many supposed facts as concrete and most people will buy into it especially if the author of a paper has a lot of credentials or degrees. Very few people think critically when something as emotionally stirring as a purported supernatural relic is concerned.
They are not “supposed facts”. They are scientific facts from experts in their fields of study, that would not put their names on something if it wasn’t based on scientific analysis that they have given due diligence. You are the one that is drawing your own conclusions, without even considering any of the real facts from more current studies, because for some reason you choose to cling to the ones you want to believe, that were done over 30 years ago. Many of these scientists, for the most part, are not invested in proving anything one way or the other. They’re just making a scientific observation based on all of the information available to them.
Until the C14 tests are done again or adequately refuted I have to go with my gut feeling that it is an artistic representation of the passion of Jesus.
Their results have been strongly questioned by many scientists, as to their accuracy, due to new facts being discovered and studies being done, since they were first published. Scientific analysis relevant to the subject has changed immensely since that time. That’s why they are not seen as being as convincing as they might have been back then. Hopefully, they will repeat the CD 14 testing on *new *samples, if only to refute the previous testing, once and for all.

Gut feelings are all well and good. I’ve been inclined to stick to my own ‘gut feeling’, which is the opposite of yours, since the early 70s. But, I’ve also been willing to study all of the facts, both pro and con, because I still tend to be a skeptical person by nature. So far, I’m certainly not convinced it’s a fake, because the new evidence is leaning more and more toward it being authentic. They’ll probably never be able to prove it 100%, but at this point, it seems to be leaning heavily toward the positive side, so I feel pretty good about it. 😃
 
No, that’s not quite what happened, according to the hypothesis. Linen/cotton, remember. And microscopy, for examination. With micro-pics. And chemically identifiable dye. Which is among the hard words in Rogers’ paper.

Posts keep adding up.

GKC
wow,over 10,000! You are a busy little beaver.
 
That’s like saying that if you want to read a large and complicated book, like ‘War and Peace’, you would only read the table of contents, the preface or the epilog, so you can just get the ‘gist’ of the story, without having to deal with all of those complicated plot twists that are way too hard to understand, right? Then, would you tell everyone that you read it and really understand what it was all about? Is that how you think people should read textbooks, too? 🤷

If you can’t be bothered to read the whole thing, which is written in plain English that even I can understand with my 10th grade education, then you have not really done your homework, and can’t possibly claim to have an informed opinion on the facts. These papers are not written by people that are “making up their own methods for dating or proving that something is supernatural”. They are experts using modern scientific methods.

Reading is not just ‘a way’, but it’s the most important way to acquire knowledge. As someone once said, “reading is fundamental” to learning anything.

They are not “supposed facts”. They are scientific facts from experts in their fields of study, that would not put their names on something if it wasn’t based on scientific analysis that they have given due diligence. You are the one that is drawing your own conclusions, without even considering any of the real facts from more current studies, because for some reason you choose to cling to the ones you want to believe, that were done over 30 years ago. Many of these scientists, for the most part, are not invested in proving anything one way or the other. They’re just making a scientific observation based on all of the information available to them.

Their results have been strongly questioned by many scientists, as to their accuracy, due to new facts being discovered and studies being done, since they were first published. Scientific analysis relevant to the subject has changed immensely since that time. That’s why they are not seen as being as convincing as they might have been back then. Hopefully, they will repeat the CD 14 testing on *new *samples, if only to refute the previous testing, once and for all.

Gut feelings are all well and good. I’ve been inclined to stick to my own ‘gut feeling’, which is the opposite of yours, since the early 70s. But, I’ve also been willing to study all of the facts, both pro and con, because I still tend to be a skeptical person by nature. So far, I’m certainly not convinced it’s a fake, because the new evidence is leaning more and more toward it being authentic. They’ll probably never be able to prove it 100%, but at this point, it seems to be leaning heavily toward the positive side, so I feel pretty good about it. 😃
Well since both Pope emeritus Benedict XVI and POpe Francis have called it an icon,I think that pretty much sums it up. For the life of me though I cannot see why so many especially in the secular media are pushing to have it authenticated as the burial shroud.of Jesus.

One might restore a work of art,especially one that displays the passion of Jesus,but I doubt the custodians would allow the vacuuming and stretching and removal of the original patches and replacing the backing of an artifact they really believed contained holy blood.
 
sorry GK,I watched a video of these ACTUAL people making the claims.Rogers even went as far as to say he has proof the manof the Shroud is the historical Jesus! Barry Shwortz(the official shroud photograper) also is positive the shroud belongs to Jesus. Funny thing though Narry is an Orthodox Jew who am am pretty certain does not see Jesus as the messiah or that he resurrected. I do not believe that is Jewish teachng.Benford is also on video making her claims.I am gald she did not start taking about pyramids and soulschools. sheesh.
Naw, I’m an agnostic on Rogers saying that. Subject to modification, but knowing what I know about Rogers, doubtful. Show me. What’s the exact quote?

That’s Schwortz. What he might think of the Shroud, as an Orthodox Jew, is something you might have to ask him That, as a photographer and Sindonologist, he thinks it’s something out of the ordinary, is certain. And it’s Rogers’ hypothesis under discussion. That stuff you don’t read about. Because you saw a video. And you know what you saw.

GKC
 
wow,over 10,000! You are a busy little beaver.
Been here for around 11+ plus years, come next month. Folks like you make it easy to add them up. It’s a guilty pleasure, I know, but it’s even easier when I really know the subject area (unlike this one, where I merely know more than you), and have minimal logical opposition.

Like potato chips. Hard to stop.

GKC
 
Naw, I’m an agnostic on Rogers saying that. Subject to modification, but knowing what I know about Rogers, doubtful. Show me. What’s the exact quote?

That’s Schwortz. What he might think of the Shroud, as an Orthodox Jew, is something you might have to ask him That, as a photographer and Sindonologist, he thinks it’s something out of the ordinary, is certain. And it’s Rogers’ hypothesis under discussion. That stuff you don’t read about. Because you saw a video. And you know what you saw.

GKC
GK when an individual says something publicly on video it cannot be refuted. you can read a thousand books but one picture or video clip is often more enlightening.
 
Been here for around 11+ plus years, come next month. Folks like you make it easy to add them up. It’s a guilty pleasure, I know, but it’s even easier when I really know the subject area (unlike this one, where I merely know more than you), and have minimal logical opposition.

Like potato chips. Hard to stop.

GKC
I am glad I can add to your total! Keep up the good work. Perhaps you will get a raise 🙂
 
GK when an individual says something publicly on video it cannot be refuted. you can read a thousand books but one picture or video clip is often more enlightening.
And what did Rogers say, according to you? And how can that be demonstrated? Like, looking at the video. If he says that he has proof that the Shroud is Christ’s burial cloth, I’ll stand corrected. But I await something a little more definitive than your account.

Which is not the same as considering what he suggests in the peer-reviewed thermochimica acta paper. With the hard words.

As to pics, you are right. Pics are useful things. Heimberger has pics. Of the samples. And other neat stuff.

Reading is fundamental.

GKC
 
I am glad I can add to your total! Keep up the good work. Perhaps you will get a raise 🙂
Naw. It’s completely eleemosynary. At some point or other, your board rank changes, but you can’t buy a book with that.

GKC
 
Naw. It’s completely eleemosynary. At some point or other, your board rank changes, but you can’t buy a book with that.

GKC
awww,you are here out of the goodness of your heart! That’s awesome to know. I will keep that in mind as I navigate your snarky comments. 😉
 
awww,you are here out of the goodness of your heart! That’s awesome to know. I will keep that in mind as I navigate your snarky comments. 😉
Snarky they be, as occasion requires. But yes. The first time I ever posted anywhere, around 16 years ago, was because some nice folks had a misunderstanding about something I knew about.

Mostly, folks tend to thank me. Not required, though.

GKC
 
And what did Rogers say, according to you? And how can that be demonstrated? Like, looking at the video. If he says that he has proof that the Shroud is Christ’s burial cloth, I’ll stand corrected. But I await something a little more definitive than your account.

Which is not the same as considering what he suggests in the peer-reviewed thermochimica acta paper. With the hard words.

As to pics, you are right. Pics are useful things. Heimberger has pics. Of the samples. And other neat stuff.

Reading is fundamental.

youtube.com/watch?v=UQn6JrPYcys

Ok I was not entirely accurate, but at 41:41 Rogers says that he has come to the conclusion that the shroud has a very good chance of being the burial cloth of the historical Jesus. Not that it may be 2000 years old but that Jesus of Nazareth was likely
wrapped in it. That’s a bit of a stretch for a chemist and scientist, don’t you think?
 
I recall that video, from somewhere. I jumped in at around 38:00, watched to the end. And, at around 41:41, Rogers does say that he is coming to believe there’s a very good change of it being the burial cloth of the historical Jesus (more or less). Which is what you said and I am convinced you were right on that. Rogers was a lifelong skeptic who was beginning to rethink things.

But the subject of the conversation here is Rogers’ hypothesis about the sample site, and the reweaving. The video, from the point I joined it, does make a adequate presentation. Linen/cotton/dye/reweaving. That is the issue, not what the cloth was, but what it’s age likely was. Now go read the papers.

And thanks for the link.

GKC
 
Well since both Pope emeritus Benedict XVI and POpe Francis have called it an icon,I think that pretty much sums it up. For the life of me though I cannot see why so many especially in the secular media are pushing to have it authenticated as the burial shroud.of Jesus.
An icon is a picture, typically of a holy person. The Shroud certainly fits that description, but that doesn’t mean it had to be created by the hands of man. The picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe is also considered to be an icon, but it’s not believed to be a painting, either (at least not by members of the Catholic Church). They are both exceptions to the normal rule concerning iconic images, that are considered to be of miraculous origin, instead of being painted.

To me, it seems as though Jesus decided to perform one more miracle before He left this physical world, that would last as a complete mystery until the world was ready to see it for what it really was. Don’t you think it’s interesting that the most intense study of the Shroud is happening at this point in history, when having real faith in God seems to be shaky, at best, throughout the whole world? Do you think Jesus might actually have planned it to happen this way to rekindle that faith? I have little doubt that this is exactly why He did it. I think it was a gift given especially to those of us living in this time period, when all of the marvelous secrets that it holds would come to light, to strengthen us and give us renewed hope that He really did exist, He really did suffer a horrible death, and He really was resurrected, just like He said He would be. And, if all of that is true, then He really is still up there in Heaven, watching over us to this day. It gives me goosebumps just thinking about it.
One might restore a work of art,especially one that displays the passion of Jesus,but I doubt the custodians would allow the vacuuming and stretching and removal of the original patches and replacing the backing of an artifact they really believed contained holy blood.
Their reverence for it is the very reason they did all of that. They are trying to preserve it so it will continue to inspire people all over the world for as long as possible. They might not always have made the best choices (like the vacuuming), but their intentions were most certainly good.
 
An icon is a picture, typically of a holy person. The Shroud certainly fits that description, but that doesn’t mean it had to be created by the hands of man. The picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe is also considered to be an icon, but it’s not believed to be a painting, either (at least not by members of the Catholic Church). They are both exceptions to the normal rule concerning iconic images, that are considered to be of miraculous origin, instead of being painted.

To me, it seems as though Jesus decided to perform one more miracle before He left this physical world, that would last as a complete mystery until the world was ready to see it for what it really was. Don’t you think it’s interesting that the most intense study of the Shroud is happening at this point in history, when having real faith in God seems to be shaky, at best, throughout the whole world? Do you think Jesus might actually have planned it to happen this way to rekindle that faith? I have little doubt that this is exactly why He did it. I think it was a gift given especially to those of us living in this time period, when all of the marvelous secrets that it holds would come to light, to strengthen us and give us renewed hope that He really did exist, He really did suffer a horrible death, and He really was resurrected, just like He said He would be. And, if all of that is true, then He really is still up there in Heaven, watching over us to this day. It gives me goosebumps just thinking about it.

Their reverence for it is the very reason they did all of that. They are trying to preserve it so it will continue to inspire people all over the world for as long as possible. They might not always have made the best choices (like the vacuuming), but their intentions were most certainly good.
shroudstory.com/2015/03/08/a-rebuttal-of-jacksons-refutation-of-reweaving/

This is the most incredible blog about the shroud. It appears Barrie and Joe Marino as well as some Catholic skeptics are there.Check it out.

And Lori, Jesus said when he finally returns would he find any faith at all. Before He does return we must remember that the antichrist comes and the number of Christians martyred will be staggering, Keep the faith. Jesus said before he comes the antichrist will arrive with all signs and lying wonders to deceive if possible even the elect…
 
Hey guys,.sorry to interrupt the debate on the tested patch carbon dated

But;
Pollen analysis has PROVEN the Shroud has 2,000 year old pollen from JERUSALEM and pollen from flowers used in a JEWISH FUNERAL.

Also; it is PROVEN that this pollen could only have gotten on the Shroud by being in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.

Google it.

The Shroud is AUTHENTIC.

End of debate.
shroudstory.com/2015/03/08/a-rebuttal-of-jacksons-refutation-of-reweaving/

This is the most incredible blog about the shroud. It appears Barrie and Joe Marino as well as some Catholic skeptics are there.Check it out.

And Lori, Jesus said when he finally returns would he find any faith at all. Before He does return we must remember that the antichrist comes and the number of Christians martyred will be staggering, Keep the faith. Jesus said before he comes the antichrist will arrive with all signs and lying wonders to deceive if possible even the elect…
 
Hey guys,.sorry to interrupt the debate on the tested patch carbon dated

But;
Pollen analysis has PROVEN the Shroud has 2,000 year old pollen from JERUSALEM and pollen from flowers used in a JEWISH FUNERAL.

Also; it is PROVEN that this pollen could only have gotten on the Shroud by being in Jerusalem 2000 years ago.

Google it.

The Shroud is AUTHENTIC.

End of debate.
I remain slightly more inclined to authenticity.

GKC
 
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