Sidestepping Sola Scriptura?

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reen,

First of all, I’d like to say that I appreciate the spirit of your posts on this board. Very rarely do you come across as peeved or angy, and while I may not agree with your perspective all the time, I appreciate your “spirit of the soft answer”. It is much more pleasant to dialogue with someone when you feel like you are actually being heard and not torn apart by ad hominem attacks.
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reen12:
Would you tell me what other area in life, as adults, can we count on, to be “infallible.”?
God is absolutely infallible, not only infallible but impeccable, which is something that I cling to when doubt assails. Life as a whole is uncertain, something that God uses as a tool to draw us (through faith) to Him. I believe he gave us the thirst for certainty so that we might be drawn to the one thing that is truly Certain. I AM…what a beautiful expression of His unchanging perfection.

I agree with you about the Catholic Church’s intellectual integrity, which is one of the reasons that I am increasingly being drawn to the Church. It has an historical depth and continuity that is unmatched, whose doctrines are deeply rooted in the thought of the earliest successors to the Apostles. Christ promised a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against, and without an authority to defend the unity of the faith against false teachings, I believe the gates of hell would prevail (just look at all the heresies that gained such popularity over the ages).

It seems to me that if Jesus himself is infallible, that he would take precautions to prevent his church from falling into error. I think it is great that the leaders of the earliest church had the greatest power to define doctrine, while the scope of the Magesterium’s ability to further define it narrows with each passing papacy. The doctrine of papal infallibility was simply further definition of existing authority doctrine borne out of necessity to combat the deadly combination of individualism and sola scriptura. This is only my take on things, which could very well be incorrect.

Obviously, doctrine was important to Jesus, he upheld the laws that God passed down to Moses, but the greatest gift he brought was the grace of God, which is something I thank him for every day.

God Bless.
 
Hello,

since I don’t want to hijack this thread, I’ve
started a new thread in the Apologetics
Forum titled: Sacraments and Sanity.
Thanks,
reen
 
Dear Deus Solus,

Thank you for your gracious, in the full sense,
post.

“I believe he gave us the thirst for certainty so that we might be drawn to the one thing that is truly Certain. I AM…what a beautiful expression of His unchanging perfection.” quote, Deus Solus

Absolutely. I AM WHO AM stuns me with it’s
metaphysical clarity and, dare I say it, beauty.

Despite my own illness, and the unlovely form it
sometimes takes- and the stances illness generates-
come to Rome, dear Deus Solus.

Maureen
 
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reen12:
Dear DeFide,

“However, the Church can be infallible (assuming you know what infallibility means) with or without us realizing it or knowing it with certainty. It does not come from human desire, but from Christ’s establishing a teaching authority.” quote, DeFide

You’re providing me with an opportunity to reiterate:

"I say that that authority has grossly over-stepped it’s mandate.
[procession of the Trinity, transubstantiation,
Limbo, Purgatory, Marian dogmas, infallibility…
indulgences! Martin Luther, call your office.] quote, reen12

And, yes, I have a glancing acquaintence with the
definition of infallibility.:o

To me, the Church is a freeway with no off-ramps.
[to borrow a phrase.]
You’re baptized as an infant; then told that, if you
don’t accept dogma/doctrine, your a heretic.
If you publicly leave, you’re an apostate.
And the terrors of hell await. [Catch22 revisited.]

If that is what you hold, I respect that position.
I don’t, however, share it.

To me, it’s a closed system, DeFide. Humming along
from the outside of that ‘set’ [as in mathematics]
I have peace of mind and heart.

That may be annoying. However, it also has the distinct
advantage of being true for me.
[If you’d prefer that I take this topic to another
thread, I would respectfully comply.]

I am not a “cafeteria Catholic.” I don’t pick and choose
what I’m willing to believe. I just say: Sing ho! for disjoint sets.
🙂 Catholic :o God’s Freelance

“Pray for me,
As I will for thee,
That we may merrily
meet in Heaven.”

reen
"God’ Freelance:) "
So I guess you consider yourself infallible on deciding what the Church should defend and define.

The Church DOES NOT teach that you go to hell if you don’t believe certain things.

Did you know that if a Catholic comes to believe the Church is in error in some essential, officially defined doctrine, it is a mortal sin against conscience, a sin of hypocrisy, for him to remain in the Church and call himself a Catholic, but only a venial sin against knowledge for him to leave the Church in honest but partly culpable error?

You WILL, however, be held culpable for doing the best you can with what you know. You must also take pains to inform your conscience.
 
Hi, DeFide,

Thanks for your post on the other thread I started.

No, I don’t consider my assessment infallible.
Just human, born of an intuitive insight into what
constitutes hubris on the part of churchmen, while
keeping an eye on my own hubris. At least I’m
aware of hubris. Were they?:o

reen
 
Do you catholics regard it as strange that Jesus Christ, who condemned elevation of tradition, would found His church so that tradition would trump the Word of God? Dont you think it stretches the truth just a little too far?

Matt. 15:6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have mmade void the word* of God.

Mark 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

Mark 7:9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of arejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

Mark 7:13 thus dmaking void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by nphilosophy and oempty deceit, according to phuman tradition, according to the qelemental spirits* of the world, and not according to Christ.
 
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justaccord:
Do you catholics regard it as strange that Jesus Christ, who condemned elevation of tradition, would found His church so that tradition would trump the Word of God? Dont you think it stretches the truth just a little too far?

Matt. 15:6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have mmade void the word* of God.

Mark 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

Mark 7:9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of arejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

Mark 7:13 thus dmaking void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by nphilosophy and oempty deceit, according to phuman tradition, according to the qelemental spirits* of the world, and not according to Christ.
I hope I don’t come across as rude, but I wish that people would search Catholic.com before posting these objections. Jesus didn’t condemn all traditions, just traditions of men that nullify the word of God:

catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp

Bible Alone or Bible Plus Tradition?
1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you

Tradition Condemned?

1Cor 11:2 - commends them for following Apostolic tradition
2Thess 2:15 - commands them to keep traditions
2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
 
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DeFide:
I hope I don’t come across as rude, but I wish that people would search Catholic.com before posting these objections. Jesus didn’t condemn all traditions, just traditions of men that nullify the word of God:

catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Tradition.asp

Bible Alone or Bible Plus Tradition?
1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you

Tradition Condemned?

1Cor 11:2 - commends them for following Apostolic tradition
2Thess 2:15 - commands them to keep traditions
2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
How about the tradition that suddenly invented the Blessed Assumption about 1800 years late? Or the tradition that has declared Mary a redeemer and mediator when Scripture says there is only one – Jesus Christ. Isn’t it blasphemy to claim that a human is Divine?
 
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justaccord:
How about the tradition that suddenly invented the Blessed Assumption about 1800 years late? Or the tradition that has declared Mary a redeemer and mediator when Scripture says there is only one – Jesus Christ. Isn’t it blasphemy to claim that a human is Divine?
That’s co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix. It’s Biblical, really, or else we’ll have to deny as well that we should pray for one another. As for the Assumption, is this not implicit in Scripture as well? The Bible stopped with Paul awaiting sentencing in Rome, but that doesn’t mean history stopped after that.
 
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justaccord:
How about the tradition that suddenly invented the Blessed Assumption about 1800 years late? Or the tradition that has declared Mary a redeemer and mediator when Scripture says there is only one – Jesus Christ. Isn’t it blasphemy to claim that a human is Divine?
Who said Mary was divine? You have some profound misunderstandings. You mediate for others when you pray for them and it doesn’t make you divine.

Just because a doctrine is defined doesn’t mean that it “suddenly” came to be believed.

You obviously didn’t take my advice about searching catholic.com before you write.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

IF… after you read the article, you still have questions, start a new thread about the Assumption, OK?

other links:
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9211fea3.asp
 
Dear Millardo,

“As for the Assumption, is this not implicit in Scripture as well?”
quote, Millardo

Where, in heaven’s name, where is this dogma
implicit in Scripture?

[please, smelling salts, I’m having an attack of
the vapours:confused: ]

Thanks,
reen

"God’s Freelance:) "
 
John 11, where Jesus said that those who die, even if they die, shall live in Him. Now, knowing Jesus’ love for His mother, and His obedience to His Father, why would he not accord this grace to her (note that Mary’s Assumption is not her won doing, but God’s grace). The second is on the prophet Elijah (or was that Elisha?), who was taken up by a chariot to heaven. Now, if God can grant that grace to a prophet, what more would it take to grant that to someone who carried the Incarnation herself?
 
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DeFide:
Who said Mary was divine? You have some profound misunderstandings. You mediate for others when you pray for them and it doesn’t make you divine.

Just because a doctrine is defined doesn’t mean that it “suddenly” came to be believed.

You obviously didn’t take my advice about searching catholic.com before you write.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

IF… after you read the article, you still have questions, start a new thread about the Assumption, OK?

other links:
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9211fea3.asp
I am probably not as facile with searching catholic.com as you are. So humor me, if you don’t mind. While I’m reading your article, tell me What is the Biblical justification for the Assumption? Seems like it was invented out of whole cloth, as a logically-impelled conclusion from the immaculate conception, also without Scriptural basis.
 
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DeFide:
Who said Mary was divine? You have some profound misunderstandings. You mediate for others when you pray for them and it doesn’t make you divine.

Does this mean, that we are ALL mediators between God and man in all intercessory prayer? Does it trouble you that that is utterly irreconcilliable with Scripture?
 
justaccord,

Exactly.

"…as a logically-impelled conclusion from the immaculate conception, also without Scriptural basis."quote, justaccord

What I can’t seem to get across to my Catholic
friends, is that to say “…wouldn’t Christ have done
this…” is theological speculation. That’s fine.

But to turn speculation, or, as you say, to take a
“logically=impelled conclusion” and raise that to
the level of dogma=I am required to believe- leaves me dumb-founded.
*
differently worded, in my own mind, recently.]

Well, I guess I’m not going to be invitited to a
Church picnic any time soon.:nope:

reen

"God’s Freelance:) "*
 
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justaccord:
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DeFide:
Who said Mary was divine? You have some profound misunderstandings. You mediate for others when you pray for them and it doesn’t make you divine.

Does this mean, that we are ALL mediators between God and man in all intercessory prayer? Does it trouble you that that is utterly irreconcilliable with Scripture?
It is perfectly harmonious with Scripture when you consider that Christ is the sole mediator of justice. This is certainly the most important form of mediatorship, but nothing in Scripture suggests it is the only one. In fact quite the opposite.

Scott
 
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reen12:
justaccord,

What I can’t seem to get across to my Catholic
friends, is that to say “…wouldn’t Christ have done
this…” is theological speculation. That’s fine.
But you have not proven it is theological speculation. You are just assuming it. Repent.

Scott
 
By all accounts, John the Apostle outlived Mary- yet his writings are completely void of her mention as anything other than Jesus’ Earthly mother.

He was her caretaker- and appointed to that duty by Christ. You’d think if he was aware of some side information on Mary’s role, he would have explained it for two reasons.
  1. He was around her the most.
  2. He was the apostle “whom Christ loved.”
  3. He wrote Revelation, and mentioned no “Queen of Heaven” on a throne in that setting. None.
    We also see the same lack of any info from all apostles in the canon of scripture, and that includes Peter.
Would first century Jews partake of any type of veneration of a woman? No. Mary would be deemed a Sorceress by the same Sanhedrin that Christ faced. I’d also be willing to offer that Jewish converts would NOT easily adapt to any female veneration due to the sheer customs of the day. It just wouldn’t happen. And it wouldn’t happen in the first century without being written about. Where is the evidence other than the alleged “Apostolic Tradition” that -at least in writing- is blatantly without Mary veneration, or mention of her at all?
 
Scott Waddell:
But you have not proven it is theological speculation. You are just assuming it. Repent.

Scott
you are just assuming many things associated with tradition, Scott. Think.

I suppose it is Roman Catholic custom to call questioning a sin worthy of repentance? I shouldn’t be shocked. It was done to Luther.

My oh my how nothing changes.
 
Dear Scott Waddell,

“But you have not proven it is theological speculation. You are just assuming it. Repent.” quote, Scott Waddell

I beg to differ. Tell me what I would have to do to
“prove” to you that it is speculation raised to the
status of dogma?

reen
 
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