"Sift you like wheat" So how many denominations are there???

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I actually thought about this when I was posting on another thread. How many denominations are there today? "Satan wishes to sift you (meaning you all) like wheat, but Peter, I pray for you in unity. I have heard it said that there are between 40-60,000 different denominations worldwide today, with different beliefs & varying views. It also seems that all of these different denominations call themselves Christians. When I think about this sometimes, I don’t find it that hard to believe. I live in a pretty small town in the far south suburbs of Chicago. My town has one stoplight & seven different churches. I hear about non denominational denominations, I hear about so called new aged Christian churches, and when I start driving up towards the city, I see these giant mega churches & church of the believer churches sprouting up. I hear the word Christian & reformed Christian and many other terms loosely being used the same way. Sift you like wheat indeed. So lets hear some thoughts on this.

www.scripturecatholic.com

www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
 
I actually thought about this when I was posting on another thread. How many denominations are there today? "Satan wishes to sift you (meaning you all) like wheat, but Peter, I pray for you in unity. I have heard it said that there are between 40-60,000 different denominations worldwide today, with different beliefs & varying views. It also seems that all of these different denominations call themselves Christians. When I think about this sometimes, I don’t find it that hard to believe. I live in a pretty small town in the far south suburbs of Chicago. My town has one stoplight & seven different churches. I hear about non denominational denominations, I hear about so called new aged Christian churches, and when I start driving up towards the city, I see these giant mega churches & church of the believer churches sprouting up. I hear the word Christian & reformed Christian and many other terms loosely being used the same way. Sift you like wheat indeed. So lets hear some thoughts on this.

www.scripturecatholic.com

www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html
More than one is too many. That’s why there is only one in the Church Triumphant.
Sadly, there has been more than one for a thousand years. Do you have a proposal to bring reconciliation within the Church Militant?

Jon
 
More than one is too many. That’s why there is only one in the Church Triumphant.
Sadly, there has been more than one for a thousand years. Do you have a proposal to bring reconciliation within the Church Militant?

Jon
There is only one way Jon, Prayer.
 
How many denominations are there today? "Satan wishes to sift you (meaning you all) like wheat, but Peter, I pray for you in unity. I have heard it said that there are between 40-60,000 different denominations worldwide today, with different beliefs & varying views.
Congratulations on such thought provoking insights. Two questions; first, up until last week the number of denominations was holding steady at 30K. Has there been a sudden uptick in protestant church growth? Second, I assume that your quoting from Scripture, Luke 22:31-32. Am I correct?

Thanks much,
Jon
 
Congratulations on such thought provoking insights. Two questions; first, up until last week the number of denominations was holding steady at 30K. Has there been a sudden uptick in protestant church growth? Second, I assume that your quoting from Scripture, Luke 22:31-32. Am I correct?

Thanks much,
Jon
Thank you.
 
I have heard it said that there are between 40-60,000 different denominations worldwide today, with different beliefs & varying views. It also seems that all of these different denominations call themselves Christians. When I think about this sometimes, I don’t find it that hard to believe.
I’ve an idea the World Christian Encyclopedia is the source of one of the earlier numbers (20,000?) but the number in the minds of Catholics seems to be continually rising. Nevertheless, I’m prepared to accept that there are 60,000 (and counting) different faith communities in Western Christendom. The names of some are familiar – lovable Lutherans, amiable Anglicans, pristine Presbyterians, winsome Wesleyans, benevolent Baptists, and memorable Methodists. I’m calling them faith communities (all 90,000 of them) because it seems to me that “denominations" are now out of favor (at least in the United States) and people are instead setting up their own “Community Churches.” But if denominations are out, the use of intense nomenclature for these Community Churches is definitely in e.g. Sanctuary of Divine Light, Mansion of Glory, Hall of Grace, Holiness Sanctification Discipleship, Beacon of Abundant Life, House of Hope, Tabernacle of Deliverance, Shelter of Living Faith, and Abode of Cleansing Fire. Each of these 120,000 faith communities has its own set of beliefs – but the thing they all have in common is that they all agree to disagree.

This is an important point so I’ll restate it. All of the 225,000 faith communities agree to disagree. One last time: All 480,000 faith communities in Western Christendom agree to disagree. For example, if one proceeds to the website of the United Methodist Church (open hearts, open minds, open doors), one will find information relating only to the United Methodist Church. One will not find the addresses of Baptist churches on the United Methodist Church website. But the Methodists aren’t mad at the Baptists because the Baptists have their own setup. The disagreements among the Non–Catholic faith communities is over doctrine but it’s generally tacit. In Non–Catholic Western Christendom faith communities are not in the habit of pronouncing anathemas upon each other or formally condemning each other. Consider the Interfaith Hospitality Network. Isn’t that a good example of Christian goodwill carried out in harmony and without any discord?

However, the perception amongst some Catholics who post on Catholic Answers Forum is that outside of the Catholic Church there are approximately 625,000 different Non–Catholic faith communities that “can’t agree on anything” and are “all squabbling with each other.” It’s just not true. The reality is that the members of the 870,000 different Non–Catholic faith communities respect each other’s space. And because they’ve identified their differences they can live peaceably without any tension.

So it’s something of a paradox that inside the Catholic Church at the present time there is much disagreement amongst Catholics. Some Catholics proclaim themselves to be sedevacantists and claim that the papal see has been vacant since the death of Pope Pius XII. Other Catholics proclaim themselves to be sedevacantists but claim that the papal see has been vacant only since the death of Pope John XXIII. Other Catholics have formed themselves into groups called conclavists and give allegiance to popes of their own fancy. Other Catholics hold views that are “traditional.” They are substantial in number and even have their own forum here on CAF. Other Catholics are “liberal.” Some Catholics believe that contraception is permissible. Other Catholics believe it isn’t. Some Catholics believe that abortion is permissible. Other Catholics do not. Some Catholics proclaim themselves to be charismatic Catholics. Other Catholics condemn such thinking. Some Catholics assert that the changes that have taken place inside the Catholic Church in the wake of Vatican II didn’t go far enough. Other Catholics assert that everything that has changed since Vatican II is bad. The biggest controversy inside Catholicism appears to be about the Mass. Some Catholics favor the Novus Ordo Missae. Other Catholics refuse to have anything to do with the Novus Ordo Missae and will attend only a Latin Mass. And as if all this wasn’t burdensome enough, Catholics now have to come to terms with the revelation that the Catholic Church in Ireland is riddled with child molesters. Some Catholics have tried try to defend the Catholic Church by pointing to the defects in Non–Catholic churches. Other Catholics, sick of the whole sorry business, remain silent and sad.

But here’s the thing. Inside the Catholic Church, Catholics do not agree to disagree. They disagree, often vehemently and always divisively, and make no apologies for doing so since each and every Catholic claims to be in line with the Magisterium. This is not a picture of unity, harmony, cooperation or agreement. In fact, it’s just the opposite. It’s a picture of tension, discord, and discontentment.

So, although it may well be that there are as many as 990,000 different faith communities outside of the Catholic Church, the way in which those faith communities conduct their affairs is relatively peaceful. And since that’s so clearly evident an objective observer might be forgiven for concluding that if Satan is in fact sifting people like wheat he appears to be having more success inside the Catholic Church than he is outside of it.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
You also have to consider the ‘new’ denominations that apply to become a non-profit and get tax -free status…just to get the moolah…not a legitimate ecclesial community.
 
You also have to consider the ‘new’ denominations that apply to become a non-profit and get tax -free status…just to get the moolah…not a legitimate ecclesial community.
What’s the standard for defining a “legitimate ecclesial community”?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
 
You also have to consider the ‘new’ denominations that apply to become a non-profit and get tax -free status…just to get the moolah…not a legitimate ecclesial community.
I’ve often seen this argument made about Scientology, but they’ve never claimed to be Christian. Do you have any examples from within the Christian community?

I think the inflated number of denominations comes more from a fundamental difference in understanding about the purpose of “church” between Catholics and many Protestants than from actual reality. For non-denominational/independent Protestants, “church” is the community of believers and their relationship with God, so church organization/denominations/obscure points of doctrine are really pretty irrelevant. Many Catholics simply assume that all churches have to be set up hierarchically with a miniature pope at the top, so therefore all the thousands of independent fundamentalist or baptist churches must each constitute their own “denomination”.

In terms of denominations more usefully defined, as a community of churches all basically in communion with one another and sharing a basic organizational structure, I doubt there are more than two or three hundred.
 
What makes an ecclesial community…

Let’s back up…

The Catholic and Orthodox churches have 7 sacraments, and having a bishop is the key to having the designation as a ‘church’.

Ecclesial means of church. Each time a denomination disgards a sacrament, they break away farther from the seat of Peter.

With a bishop, the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, and Lutheran are considered churches. But with the removal of the bishop, then the sacrament of confirmation–a strengthening of the Holy Spirit with a person of the age of reason–and taking the promise to live and die for Christ…is removed. You then do not have Holy Communion, Penance – which came from Christ on the evening of the Resurrection when He gave the Apostles–and their successors --His power to forgive sin.

Most denominations retain baptism…which is Catholic in rite…and people are baptized into the Catholic Church irregardless. So we consider through Baptism all separated brethren as part of the church but separate from us in the Church and most sacraments.

I have met many non-Catholics who share the same personal faith in Christ, but they are outside of the church. People have reactions to the Catholic Church by what has been ingrained in them.

So that outside the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran are considered ecclesial communities…‘of church’ communities because they do not have bishops and the sacrament of Holy Orders, our foundation,-- successors to the Apostles and most of the seven sacraments, especially those of initiation.–penance, Eucharist, and
confirmation. We have the sacrament of matrimony, but the couple marry themselves and the priest is as witness. We have the sacrament of Healing, and that is also a rite. The gift of healing is present and active across all denominations.
 
What makes an ecclesial community…

Let’s back up…

The Catholic and Orthodox churches have 7 sacraments, and having a bishop is the key to having the designation as a ‘church’.

Ecclesial means of church. Each time a denomination disgards a sacrament, they break away farther from the seat of Peter.

With a bishop, the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopalian, and Lutheran are considered churches. But with the removal of the bishop, then the sacrament of confirmation–a strengthening of the Holy Spirit with a person of the age of reason–and taking the promise to live and die for Christ…is removed. You then do not have Holy Communion, Penance – which came from Christ on the evening of the Resurrection when He gave the Apostles–and their successors --His power to forgive sin.

Most denominations retain baptism…which is Catholic in rite…and people are baptized into the Catholic Church irregardless. So we consider through Baptism all separated brethren as part of the church but separate from us in the Church and most sacraments.

I have met many non-Catholics who share the same personal faith in Christ, but they are outside of the church. People have reactions to the Catholic Church by what has been ingrained in them.

So that outside the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran are considered ecclesial communities…‘of church’ communities because they do not have bishops and the sacrament of Holy Orders, our foundation,-- successors to the Apostles and most of the seven sacraments, especially those of initiation.–penance, Eucharist, and
confirmation. We have the sacrament of matrimony, but the couple marry themselves and the priest is as witness. We have the sacrament of Healing, and that is also a rite. The gift of healing is present and active across all denominations.
Thanks for taking the time to post your response to my question. It’s evident from your commentary that there are substantial differences between Catholics and Orthodox Christians in their respective understandings of the sacramental life of the Church.

For example, you declare that, “We have the sacrament of matrimony, but the couple marry themselves and the priest is as witness.”

So, in effect, then, the Catholic couple is entering into a binding contract when they utter their vows. But, if I understand Catholic teaching and belief correctly, if either party subsequently wants out, their contract may be annulled by the Catholic Church even though it was they that conferred the sacrament upon each other. The annullment renders the marriage null and void i.e. as if it never took place, which makes any children of that marriage illegitimate in the eyes of Catholic Church.

In Orthodoxy, matrimony is not a contract. It is the mysterious or mystical union of a man and woman in imitation of Christ and the Church in the presence of “the whole People of God” through the priest. So there are no vows. Divorce is forbidden but as a concession to human weakness it is allowed in the case of adultery. There is no such thing as an annullment inside Orthodox Christianity.

In Orthodoxy, the sacrament of chrismation (also called confirmation) is always conferred at the same time as baptism (but no bishop is needed as is the case in the Catholic Church). The Orthodox view is that just as Easter has no meaning for the world without Pentecost so baptism has no meaning for the Christian without chrismation. In this understanding and practice the Orthodox Church differs from the Catholic Church wherein the two sacraments are usually separated. You described the sacrament of confirmation inside Catholicism as “a strengthening of the Holy Spirit with a person of the age of reason–and taking the promise to live and die for Christ.” Fair enough. But why does the Catholic Church put off confirmation until children are around thirteen years old?

You mentioned the Eucharist only in passing but again the Catholic understanding prompts the obvious question. Why does the Catholic Church prevent infants from receiving Holy Communion until they are around seven years old?
Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
And so within Holy Orthodoxy…

I’m not looking for an argument. I just find the Catholic position (assuming I’m understanding it correctly) somewhat illogical. 🙂

Any thoughts or constructive comments apropos these differences between us?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
 
Mick,

Thanks for reading my post.

The sacrament of marriage is a sacrament…just that…the total giving of self for other in permanency. The priest and church can’t make a couple nurture their marriage. Inspite of marriage prep, marriages fail and we live in a culture that does not support marriage and family.

You get married to share your life with someone and raise a family…everything is for the betterment of the family as the foundation of society. We live in a very individualistic society, and we are now seeing in public weak spouses and people who either prey upon or seek out a married person for sex. There are people who like married people, and have no regard for their spouse or their family, and the poverty that comes to the mother and child if they divorce.

Our marriage vows state we stay together for better or for worse. But there are people who wear masks or honestly don’t know themselves, and end up not having the psychological maturity to remain in a marriage.

When you call the children bastards or illegitimate, that is a human degradation of an innocent person who had no choice in being born. Any true Christian, as reflected throughout the Scripture, has mercy on children, on orphans.

You may be drawing on the time when clergy made vows but had mistresses and children and not married. You have to put the shoe on the other foot. If someone you entrusted your soul to ended up doing things contrary, somebody wearing a mask of religion, would you also want to take alms and care for their family as well??

Would you like your tax dollars used to support the children born out of wedlock to the various famous people we see today? I mean that just as a human reaction.

We are living in a time where there are many marriages but they are not of God.

There are people who are living in very abusive relationships. A legal separation or divorce is warranted, but many times the relationship ends in death, the victim and sometimes the children murdered by the man of the house.

There are Orthodox priests who share with the celibate Latin rite that they are burdened with family, are divided, and respect the discipline of celibacy for the Catholic clergy.

Confirmation, up to Pope Pius X, was given at the same time as Penance and Holy Eucharist. But the Church decided to move it up more so that the child would have a more developed understanding of the implications of being confirmed were.

My first little baby girl was so cute. I spent the most time with her. She was born on Mother’s Day. In June we had our wonderful strawberries. I put a cut strawberry on her tongue and she totally freaked out, as I could see she was just taken by the flavor. However, she started to choke, and I freaked out for fear she could choke.

One day at the Cathedral in Salt Lake City, my family and I went to a daily Mass. My little boy came up at the end behind his siblings with his arms crossed over his heart. The priest thought he had already received his First Communion. When he received, his eyes and demeanor totally changed. I asked him what was the matter, and he replied, “Oh Mom, there was so much power in that!!!” He was four years old.

It is also a sacrilege to receive the Eucharist without believing He is the same God who led the Jews out of Egypt as a Pillar of Fire, Who parted the Red Sea, and fed them manna from heaven, and gave them the Ten Commandments. We receive His body and blood.

We want the children to be of the age of reason out of respect for the Eucharist so that they can have full knowledge and belief…as it is the faith that saves them, the Eucharist that feeds them in the perfection of virtues, in the life giving Blood of the Sacrament.
 
That is a beautiful liturgy of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

I have studied some differences between Orthodox and Catholic. You know that if there is no Latin church in town, we can attend. We let the priest know our association before the Sacred Liturgy.

I know of the differences between Original Sin and peoples’ nature to sin. There is also the one regarding the Filoque, of the Son proceeding the Father. We see the Heavenly Father creating the carnate universe through His Son Jesus Who would become carnate at the appointed time. I see God as ‘I am Who am’…Father Son and Holy Spirit one, always one, proceeding or preceeding implying time and motion…and God is outside both.

God is.

So I would tend to be inclined to maintain the Catholic position of the Filoque.

And the discipline of conferring sacraments to souls that have reason…I know of some children that were confirmed between 4 to 7 locally. There are exceptions to every rule.

I am praying for reunification of the Latin and Orthodox churches.

Do you know anything about the Maronite rite and liturgy??
 
I should have been clearer…

There is a scenario of abuse for predators to claim church status and tax exemption, and may be have some sort of Bible group.

None come to mind. I hear of some from time to time, but never remember them beyond that.
 
Mick,

Thanks for reading my post.

It is also a sacrilege to receive the Eucharist without believing He is the same God who led the Jews out of Egypt as a Pillar of Fire, Who parted the Red Sea, and fed them manna from heaven, and gave them the Ten Commandments. We receive His body and blood.


When you call the children bastards or illegitimate, that is a human degradation of an innocent person who had no choice in being born. Any true Christian, as reflected throughout the Scripture, has mercy on children, on orphans.


We want the children to be of the age of reason out of respect for the Eucharist so that they can have full knowledge and belief…as it is the faith that saves them, the Eucharist that feeds them in the perfection of virtues, in the life giving Blood of the Sacrament.
Many thanks for your detailed commentary, Kathleen, and sorry I had to snip it in order to accommodate my post.

I think our differences reflect the approaches of our respective faith communities. As far as I’m aware, the “age of reason” (or “age of responsibility,” as I’ve heard it referenced in Evangelical circles) is a concept that is alien to Orthodoxy. I guess that’s because Orthodox Christians are content with mystery and accept that a newly born baby has just as much chance of understanding the Mysteries of God as the most educated of adults. For Orthodox Christians “full knowledge” does not necessarily have to be attendant to belief or respect. It follows, then, that if the field is level as far as conceptual understanding is concerned the baby, because of its innocence, is quite likely to be closer to God – and this state of trusting innocence is to be emulated by the adult, just as Jesus taught us. This does not make Catholic thinking or understanding wrong. It’s just that the approach is different. No disrespect is intended by anybody and that’s the important thing.

My comment about illegitimate children was not meant to show disrespect. If the Catholic Church annuls a Catholic marriage, then (as far as I understand it) the Catholic Church is declaring that there was no sacrament and that the marriage never actually happened. It therefore seems to follow that any children born to the couple have parents that have been formally and publicly declared by the Catholic Church never to have been unmarried. Do you follow my train of thought?

If the Catholic Church states that such children are not illegitimate then I accept that without demur but reserve the right to consider the whole sequence to be illogical and contradictory (not meaning to cause any offense, if you see what I mean :)).

God bless you.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
That is a beautiful liturgy of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

I have studied some differences between Orthodox and Catholic. You know that if there is no Latin church in town, we can attend. We let the priest know our association before the Sacred Liturgy.

I know of the differences between Original Sin and peoples’ nature to sin. There is also the one regarding the Filoque, of the Son proceeding the Father. We see the Heavenly Father creating the carnate universe through His Son Jesus Who would become carnate at the appointed time. I see God as ‘I am Who am’…Father Son and Holy Spirit one, always one, proceeding or preceeding implying time and motion…and God is outside both.

God is.

So I would tend to be inclined to maintain the Catholic position of the Filoque.

And the discipline of conferring sacraments to souls that have reason…I know of some children that were confirmed between 4 to 7 locally. There are exceptions to every rule.

I am praying for reunification of the Latin and Orthodox churches.

Do you know anything about the Maronite rite and liturgy??
I’ve looked cautiously and carefully at the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy and I decided for Orthodoxy for what are, I daresay, the usual reasons. But, if there were no Orthodoxy, I’d be Catholic. I’m sad that the schism of 1054 happened and that the Church is divided but I’m content to leave steps to reunification to the bishops.

I left Evangelical Christianity at the end of 2005 because the worship was no longer focused on God but on the performers who craved their fifteen minutes of fame every Sunday morning. But I soon discovered that this same pattern is to be found across the board and has even edged its way into the Catholic Church. But when I discovered the Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox Church, I was delighted. I had several doctrinal objections, though, and I didn’t become a catechumen until last year. I was chrismated less than a fortnight ago when became “Newly Illumined.”

So as I’ve spent all my time getting over the doctrinal hurdles I’m just a beginner as far as Liturgy is concerned. I sing in the choir and that’s giving me an insight but there is so much to digest. I’m kinda past my prime, too, which doesn’t help at all when it comes to retaining information. 🙂

Stumblingly,
Mick
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