"Sift you like wheat" So how many denominations are there???

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KathleenGee said:
I should have been clearer…

There is a scenario of abuse for predators to claim church status and tax exemption, and may be have some sort of Bible group.

None come to mind. I hear of some from time to time, but never remember them beyond that.
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Indeed. No question that there are people out there who intend to do harm to our children and grandchildren.

Sadly;
Mick
:sad_bye:
 
SSTeacher said:
Many thanks for your detailed commentary, Kathleen, and sorry I had to snip it in order to accommodate my post.

I think our differences reflect the approaches of our respective faith communities. As far as I’m aware, the “age of reason” (or “age of responsibility,” as I’ve heard it referenced in Evangelical circles) is a concept that is alien to Orthodoxy. I guess that’s because Orthodox Christians are content with mystery and accept that a newly born baby has just as much chance of understanding the Mysteries of God as the most educated of adults. For Orthodox Christians “full knowledge” does not necessarily have to be attendant to belief or respect. It follows, then, that if the field is level as far as conceptual understanding is concerned the baby, because of its innocence, is quite likely to be closer to God – and this state of trusting innocence is to be emulated by the adult, just as Jesus taught us. This does not make Catholic thinking or understanding wrong. It’s just that the approach is different. No disrespect is intended by anybody and that’s the important thing.

My comment about illegitimate children was not meant to show disrespect. If the Catholic Church annuls a Catholic marriage, then (as far as I understand it) the Catholic Church is declaring that there was no sacrament and that the marriage never actually happened. It therefore seems to follow that any children born to the couple have parents that have been formally and publicly declared by the Catholic Church never to have been unmarried. Do you follow my train of thought?

If the Catholic Church states that such children are not illegitimate then I accept that without demur but reserve the right to consider the whole sequence to be illogical and contradictory (not meaning to cause any offense, if you see what I mean :)).

God bless you.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
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A decree of annulment is a finding that there was some problem with the original vows in form or intent that makes the binding nature of the marriage invalid before God. The parties are thus released from the contract and are free to attempt marriage again. It doesn’t erase the marriage from history, and any children produced by the marriage are absolutely not considered illegitimate. (I’m not sure whether or not a child is illegitimate is ever important to the Catholic Church, but they have been very clear that children of annulled marriages are not illegitimate, because people so often misunderstand that.)
 
Melquita said:
A decree of annulment is a finding that there was some problem with the original vows in form or intent that makes the binding nature of the marriage invalid before God. The parties are thus released from the contract and are free to attempt marriage again. It doesn’t erase the marriage from history, and any children produced by the marriage are absolutely not considered illegitimate. (I’m not sure whether or not a child is illegitimate is ever important to the Catholic Church, but they have been very clear that children of annulled marriages are not illegitimate, because people so often misunderstand that.)
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That makes sense against the backcloth of western thinking and legalistic terminology i.e. being released from the contract. Such verbiage is alien to Orthodox sacramental life.

I met a somewhat bitter and resentful former Catholic many years ago whose gripe with the Catholic Church was that he’d been refused when he 'd applied to be a priest and the reason given was that he was illegitimate. So perhaps it is sometimes considered important. 🤷

Many thanks for your interpolation.

Appreciatively,
Mick
👍
 
To call an innocent human illegitimate is wrong.

If the child was baptized into the faith, no matter the circumstances, the child is now a member of the Body of Christ made righteous by Him.

Vatican II called religious orders into renewal…and there were excesses that were inhumane…alot of the abuse happened in the 60’s…the rotten fruit ready to fall off the tree.

I feel incensely wrong at that situation. I wonder if he had gone to another diocese if it would be different…

When people are not following Vatican II, albeit misunderstandings of it as well, they are not in the spirit of the Church.
 
About liturgy, yes, the focus is Jesus Christ as atonement for sin, we joined with Him to the Father…the fulfillment of worship from the Old Testament.

The Orthodox desire to bring down heaven to earth and the participants to touch heaven.

The Mass is the only visible entrance into heaven that we can already enjoy here on earth. It is not to be focused on us.

Yes, we have had some excesses as well in the Sacred Liturgy…Christ continues to reform us.

You may want to read Fr Jeremy Driscoll’s book, ‘The Meaning of the Mass’, and I do not think it would contradict anything of Orthodox liturgy.

If someone thinks otherwise and more knowledgeable let me know. It covers the basic parts of the Mass and their origins.
 
And about annullments, the USA has the most, far most, and the Church does not like that.
 
KathleenGee said:
To call an innocent human illegitimate is wrong.

If the child was baptized into the faith, no matter the circumstances, the child is now a member of the Body of Christ made righteous by Him.

Vatican II called religious orders into renewal…and there were excesses that were inhumane…alot of the abuse happened in the 60’s…the rotten fruit ready to fall off the tree.

I feel incensely wrong at that situation. I wonder if he had gone to another diocese if it would be different…

When people are not following Vatican II, albeit misunderstandings of it as well, they are not in the spirit of the Church.
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I guess it might have been different if he’d pursued it but to be rejected in that way would have been a huge blow to his faith. I doubt that he ever recovered from it.

Still, life’s like that.

Realistically,
Mick
👍
 
KathleenGee said:
About liturgy, yes, the focus is Jesus Christ as atonement for sin, we joined with Him to the Father…the fulfillment of worship from the Old Testament.

The Orthodox desire to bring down heaven to earth and the participants to touch heaven.

The Mass is the only visible entrance into heaven that we can already enjoy here on earth. It is not to be focused on us.

Yes, we have had some excesses as well in the Sacred Liturgy…Christ continues to reform us.

You may want to read Fr Jeremy Driscoll’s book, ‘The Meaning of the Mass’, and I do not think it would contradict anything of Orthodox liturgy.

If someone thinks otherwise and more knowledgeable let me know. It covers the basic parts of the Mass and their origins.
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One has only to read the anguish expressed on threads in the Traditional Catholicism forum to know that something is drastically awry inside the Catholic Church. I feel sad that it’s so.

Sympathetically,
Mick
:sad_bye:
 
SSTeacher said:
That makes sense against the backcloth of western thinking and legalistic terminology i.e. being released from the contract. Such verbiage is alien to Orthodox sacramental life.

I met a somewhat bitter and resentful former Catholic many years ago whose gripe with the Catholic Church was that he’d been refused when he 'd applied to be a priest and the reason given was that he was illegitimate. So perhaps it is sometimes considered important. 🤷

Many thanks for your interpolation.

Appreciatively,
Mick
👍
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This sounds like an abuse by the priests and bishop in his diocese rather than a formal church teaching. The Church will deny holy orders on otherwise valid candidates in order to avoid scandalizing the community, so perhaps this is the reasoning on which they based their bigotry. There are certainly no specific rules stating that illegitimate children can’t become priests.

In my understanding annulment exists in Orthodox tradition, and is considered much the same way as it is by the Catholics, but it occurs much more rarely because local bishops are given far more leeway to grant divorces and remarry people in the interest of economy.
 
SSTeacher said:
I met a somewhat bitter and resentful former Catholic many years ago whose gripe with the Catholic Church was that he’d been refused when he 'd applied to be a priest and the reason given was that he was illegitimate. So perhaps it is sometimes considered important. 🤷
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And you believed him? :rolleyes: I think someone was pulling your leg.
 
steve_b said:
Not everything people say is believable OR true.
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No, but there’s nothing particularly unbelievable about that story. I had a friend planning on going into the priesthood, his diocese had arranged a scholarship for him to go to seminary in Spain. At the last moment his priest told him he would only sign the papers in return for sexual favors. It helps not to underestimate how stupid and/or evil people can be, whether or not those people are priests.
 
And I heard things up in this neck of the woods…Lavender Network…a bishop regretted an ordination, and it was based on his liturgical abuse…more came out so many years in prison, and that fellow is in prison for homosexual crime against a teen.

We had about 4 of them and their idea of liturgies, role of priests…3 of the 4…anyway, they all ended up in prison including this one. But the vast majority of the clergy were fantastic.
 
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