Sigh... two steps forward and one back

  • Thread starter Thread starter WoundedIcon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

WoundedIcon

Guest
My parish used to use the Mass of Glory setting (blech). The diocese implemented a better setting, so step one. And the new translation, step two. And then… my parish goes and sticks the wine in a glass cup. Heavy, chalice-like, but just plain old glass. And I’m like ARRRRRGH. They’ve never used one before. Why now!?

I just want to vent. I’m tired of all this. I notice problems all the time and just cannot be the one to fix them. As far as I’m concerned I’ll be shut down if I bring them up because I’m known to be head-over-heart and scrupulous. I mean, it’s nothing EXTREME, but just the typical idiosyncrasies that are all over the Roman church right now. Add to that being one of maybe three folks my age their, the culture shock of being at a parish centered around the culture of a city that isn’t my culture, being one of the most theologically minded individuals there, and the fact that the clergy there find me anal… meh.
 
How about just a question? “Father, I noticed you used a different chalice today, where did it come from?” asked in a tone of inquiry, not accusation. Perhaps, his chalice is out being repaired or cleaned and this is the one he found stuffed in the back cupboard of the sacristy. Perhaps this was a gift from grand-aunt so and so’s legacy and he wanted to use it once to honor her. Not terrific reasons, but understandable for one time use. (I know it is still an abuse.) However, if this is his idea of a great improvement, then it is time to be anal even if they don’t like it. Tell him why it is a problem and then ask the bishop for advice.

If you live in a city, is there any chance of getting to a differnt parish? Some things are indeed abusive, but some things (like the Mass settings) are simply a matter of taste and it would be better for your piece of mind to be somewhere else if possible. It is not good to spend all of Mass scouting out real or perceived abuses. It is easier to accomplish this when you aren’t set off kilter by bad music or altar girls with banners. 😉
 
Mrs_Sally said:
If you live in a city, is there any chance of getting to a differnt parish?
Click to expand...
That’s a good idea! Though when I tried it, I generally found the same things going on. And then I found an Eastern Catholic Church that was only fifteen minutes away (not bad in my neck-of-the-woods). I now go to my local ECC on Sundays, but still go to Daily Mass in my neighborhood RCC. Best of both worlds imo. 🙂
 
The nice thing about glass chalices is that sometimes they accidentally get broken.
 
Mrs_Sally said:
How about just a question? “Father, I noticed you used a different chalice today, where did it come from?” asked in a tone of inquiry, not accusation. Perhaps, his chalice is out being repaired or cleaned and this is the one he found stuffed in the back cupboard of the sacristy. Perhaps this was a gift from grand-aunt so and so’s legacy and he wanted to use it once to honor her. Not terrific reasons, but understandable for one time use. (I know it is still an abuse.) However, if this is his idea of a great improvement, then it is time to be anal even if they don’t like it. Tell him why it is a problem and then ask the bishop for advice.
Click to expand...
Emphasis mine…

That’s not necessarily true. What the poster assumed was glass might have been crystal, and the OP says nothing about the heft of the chalice, which might have made it such that it would be reasonably durable for mass uses. If that is the case, then provided that the college of bishops has approved (I’m not sure whether they have or not) then such a chalice might be used in mass.
 
Yeah, don’t worry about it guys. Turns out it was a one time thing.
 
promethius said:
Emphasis mine…

That’s not necessarily true. What the poster assumed was glass might have been crystal, and the OP says nothing about the heft of the chalice, which might have made it such that it would be reasonably durable for mass uses. If that is the case, then provided that the college of bishops has approved (I’m not sure whether they have or not) then such a chalice might be used in mass.
Click to expand...
Not again…

A clear glass-looking chalice (for lack of better words) is an abuse. Always. The chalice must be precious metal. There’s simply no excuse to use a glass chalice.

GIRM:
328. Sacred vessels should be made from precious metal. if they are made from metal that rusts or from a metal less precious than gold, they should generally be gilded on the inside.
 
TheMc said:
Not again…

A clear glass-looking chalice (for lack of better words) is an abuse. Always. The chalice must be precious metal. There’s simply no excuse to use a glass chalice.

GIRM:
328. Sacred vessels should be made from precious metal. if they are made from metal that rusts or from a metal less precious than gold, they should generally be gilded on the inside.
Click to expand...
And the girm then continues…

329. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, sacred vessels may also be made from other solid materials which in the common estimation in each region are considered precious or noble, for example, ebony or other harder woods, provided that such materials are suitable for sacred use. In this case, preference is always to be given to materials that do not easily break or deteriorate. This applies to all vessels that are intended to hold the hosts, such as the paten, the ciborium, the pyx, the monstrance, and others of this kind.

I’m just trying to figure out why someone would post 328 and then make an assertion that 329 clearly refutes. I mean, obviously you have access to the GIRM that this statement should have been available and clear to you… especially since it’s based on
Redemptionis Sacramentum, which I’m certain that, given you were saying I’m wrong, you took the time to read (as I did, at least insofar as it speaks to sacred vessels) before commenting…
 
promethius said:
And the girm then continues…

329. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, sacred vessels may also be made from other solid materials which in the common estimation in each region are considered precious or noble, for example, ebony or other harder woods, provided that such materials are suitable for sacred use. In this case, preference is always to be given to materials that do not easily break or deteriorate. This applies to all vessels that are intended to hold the hosts, such as the paten, the ciborium, the pyx, the monstrance, and others of this kind.

I’m just trying to figure out why someone would post 328 and then make an assertion that 329 clearly refutes. I mean, obviously you have access to the GIRM that this statement should have been available and clear to you… especially since it’s based on
Redemptionis Sacramentum, which I’m certain that, given you were saying I’m wrong, you took the time to read (as I did, at least insofar as it speaks to sacred vessels) before commenting…
Click to expand...
You call glass precious?
 
WoundedIcon said:
My parish used to use the Mass of Glory setting (blech). The diocese implemented a better setting, so step one. And the new translation, step two. And then… my parish goes and sticks the wine in a glass cup. Heavy, chalice-like, but just plain old glass. And I’m like ARRRRRGH. They’ve never used one before. Why now!?

I just want to vent. I’m tired of all this. I notice problems all the time and just cannot be the one to fix them. As far as I’m concerned I’ll be shut down if I bring them up because I’m known to be head-over-heart and scrupulous. I mean, it’s nothing EXTREME, but just the typical idiosyncrasies that are all over the Roman church right now. Add to that being one of maybe three folks my age their, the culture shock of being at a parish centered around the culture of a city that isn’t my culture, being one of the most theologically minded individuals there, and the fact that the clergy there find me anal… meh.
Click to expand...
I know exactly how you feel. Sounds like my old parish. 😉

As I learned more about the Mass and understood how my old parish did things wrong, I just couldn’t go there anymore. I was upset every time I went to Mass.

So, I found a reverent OF parish close to my house and I go to the closest FSSP parish once a month.

If liturgical abuse and/or irreverence bothers you that much, I’d suggest (if possible) finding another parish where you can pray better.
 
TheMc said:
You call glass precious?
Click to expand...
Crystal. Not glass. Now you are changing what I said.

A crystal goblet, particularly if it’s natural crystal, can fetch more than many metal goblets, and certainly more than some of the other materials used for chalices in the United States.
 
Mass is partly a re-enactment of the Last Supper. We know that Jesus shared the cup with his apostles, but there’s no record of what it was made of. Glass - certainly not: In the first century glass was more precious than gold and only the richest of Romans would have glass cups. Silver-plated copper (that’s what most Church chalices are made of) - again not. The chances are that the cup used was far more simple than what we are used to and it may well have been made of earthenware or wood.

Using elaborately decorated chalices made of precious metal is a comparatively modern invention. In 17th century England, they were all melted down by law and replaced by cups - which were the same thing but without the boss on the stem. Looking through the Church Suppliers catalogues, I see that around half of the metal “chalices” currently available would actually pass the 17th century cup test.

We must remember that Holy Communion is when we receive Jesus Christ in body, blood, soul and divinity, in the form of bread and wine. The sacred vessels used are of secondary importance. It would be disrespectful to use a chipped enamel mug, unless that was the only vessel available. It is easy to worry because things have changed from the Church in which we grew up. I’m sure there were people who thought that the introduction of precious metal chalices was a bad idea - and we should never have abandoned Greek in favour of that common language Latin. Just remember the upper room. We have elaborated the ceremony and added vessels of metal and glass, but in the end it’s you and Jesus.
 
Posted by jimrob:
We must remember that Holy Communion is when we receive Jesus Christ in body, blood, soul and divinity, in the form of bread and wine. The sacred vessels used are of secondary importance. [Just because something is secondary to God doesn’t mean it’s not important] It would be disrespectful to use a chipped enamel mug, unless that was the only vessel available. It is easy to worry because things have changed from the Church in which we grew up. I’m sure there were people who thought that the introduction of precious metal chalices was a bad idea - and we should never have abandoned Greek in favour of that common language Latin.[Don’t forget that the “latin” used in the Mass is about as “common” as shakespeare is to us Americans today. So to say it’s in the “common” latin is hardly accurate.] Just remember the upper room. We have elaborated the ceremony and added vessels of metal and glass, but in the end it’s you and Jesus.[This attitude strikes me as very protestant. It’s not just between you and Jesus. That’s why the Mass is a communal act. If you want to be between you and Jesus, go home and pray by yourself.]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top