Sign of Jonah (help!)

[camkutz]

My Muslim friend sent me this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=QGzS9sfC8P0&feature=youtu.be (it’s only 7 minutes btw)

Anyway, basically the preacher is trying to explain that Our Lord was not crucified and did not die because when Jesus says-
“But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Matthew 12:38-45

–the preacher goes onto explain that the miracle of the story about Jonah was the fact that he did not die when he fell into the sea, and that when he was trapped inside the fish, he was still alive - therefore making up the miracle. He says that Jesus was not crucified because he would be lying if he died and there would be no miracle (crazy thing to say when there was the resurrection! )
However, if somebody could help me answer my Muslim friend in a way that he could understand that would be great because I really do not know how to explain!

Thank you and happy new year!

 

[Miserissima]

My Muslim friend sent me this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=QGzS9sfC8P0&feature=youtu.be (it’s only 7 minutes btw)

Anyway, basically the preacher is trying to explain that Our Lord was not crucified and did not die because when Jesus says-
“But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Matthew 12:38-45

–the preacher goes onto explain that the miracle of the story about Jonah was the fact that he did not die when he fell into the sea, and that when he was trapped inside the fish, he was still alive - therefore making up the miracle. He says that Jesus was not crucified because he would be lying if he died and there would be no miracle (crazy thing to say when there was the resurrection! )
However, if somebody could help me answer my Muslim friend in a way that he could understand that would be great because I really do not know how to explain!

Thank you and happy new year!

It seems the preacher doesn’t understand / recognize the two natures of Christ.

 

[DMITRIYL]

Well, I would say that while Christ did die in bodily sense, He did not die in the spiritual sense. As in His body died, but without incurring eternal punishment or as in Revelations, the second death. Maybe this will help.

 

[camkutz]

Well re-thinking about it, I read my Latin-vulgate Bible and it says the heart of the earth, so maybe this could be referencing when Jesus descended to the dead?

 

[Cathoholic]

camkutz. You stated:

Anyway, basically the preacher is trying to explain that Our Lord was not crucified and did not die because . . . . when Jesus says-
"But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. . . . . goes onto explain that the miracle . . . .

.

First of all perhaps when Jesus said “just as”, concerning Jonah, Jesus may have been pointing out “a miraculous event” and NOT have been referring to the “life and death” situation of Jonah.

.
But the Muslim-apologist “preacher” doesn’t know if Jonah died (and was supernaturally resuscitated) or not.

camkutz. As you also said:

. . . . my Latin-vulgate Bible and it says the heart of the earth, so maybe this could be referencing when Jesus descended to the dead?

Right:thumbsup:!

.

Second of all, we don’t KNOW Jonah didn’t die (and was supernaturally resuscitated). As a matter of fact, Jonah himself said . . . .

JONAH 2:2b . . . . out of the belly of Sheol I cried . . .

Sheol is the abode of the dead.

Or both of the above.

So the Muslim-apologist’s preacher’s opinion is not persuasive here. I would not be moved by such shenanigans.

Hope this helps with your question.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[bisco1]

what do we say in the creed?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

You’re friend and the preacher are reading something into the passage and clearly do not understand typology. The sign of Jonah is a type and is referring to the 3 days and 3 nights. In typology, it is common for one part of the “sign” to be representative of Jesus, but not every single thing. For example, we say Joshua is a type of Jesus because he lead the Israelites into the promised land. But not every single detail about Joshua matches Jesus. No one can match up to Jesus. But in typology we look for common elements-- the Ark is a type of Mary, the Red Sea is a type of baptism, etc.

Funny how he can pay such close attention to the text about the text about the ‘sign of Jonah’ but not about the text that says He died. Why would one part of the text be valid and not the other?? The Scripture says Jesus died and was resurrected. By the way, it is a common argument with Muslims that “God can’t die” and thus there is no way Jesus could be God and also die. However, Jesus died in the sense that we ALL die-- His fleshly body died but His soul did not. None of our souls die upon our death. Jesus (His soul united with His Divinity) descended to the dead to free those who were righteous and willing to accept Him as Messiah and Savior. Then He resurrected from the dead to prove that He was Who He said He was.

If I were you I would simply tell your friend that you cannot dissect the Word of God and take only the passages that support your argument. You must read the Scripture in light of all the other Scripture, it must be taken in context. I concur with Cathoholic, the argument is not the least bit convincing.

 

[camkutz]

Thanks guy! I totally understand now, thanks for your help!

 

[Gorgias]

Well, I would say that while Christ did die in bodily sense, He did not die in the spiritual sense.

Erm… whaaaaaa?

Can you name any person in the history of all creation who “die[d] in the spiritual sense”? (That is, anyone whose spirit died?)

Jesus died, fully and completely, in the way that any human dies: his body was dead, his soul lives on.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The Romans had a lot of shortcomings, but I think they were experts on knowing when a prisoner was dead. That is why the guard pierced Jesus; just to make sure.

 

[DMITRIYL]

Erm… whaaaaaa?

Can you name any person in the history of all creation who “die[d] in the spiritual sense”? (That is, anyone whose spirit died?)

Jesus died, fully and completely, in the way that any human dies: his body was dead, his soul lives on.

I am talking about the spiritual death in Revelations, the second death, also known as damnation.

 

[WKW_69]

My Muslim friend sent me this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=QGzS9sfC8P0&feature=youtu.be (it’s only 7 minutes btw)

Anyway, basically the preacher is trying to explain that Our Lord was not crucified and did not die because when Jesus says-
“But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Matthew 12:38-45

–the preacher goes onto explain that the miracle of the story about Jonah was the fact that he did not die when he fell into the sea, and that when he was trapped inside the fish, he was still alive - therefore making up the miracle. He says that Jesus was not crucified because he would be lying if he died and there would be no miracle (crazy thing to say when there was the resurrection! )
However, if somebody could help me answer my Muslim friend in a way that he could understand that would be great because I really do not know how to explain!

Thank you and happy new year!

The preacher is ignoring eyewitness testimoney given to and witnessed by the writers of the four gospels. People that take one sentence out of the bible and ignoring all other evidence in it are truly evil.

 

[Gorgias]

I am talking about the spiritual death in Revelations, the second death, also known as damnation.

Fair enough. Revelation says that this will happen after the final judgment, at the end of time. So, I repeat my question: can you point to anyone in history who has died this “spiritual death, the second death”? If not, then it’s still a distinction without a difference: no one has died any differently than Jesus died…

 

[Xeyed818]

Anyway, basically the preacher is trying to explain that Our Lord was not crucified and did not die because when Jesus says-

"But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matthew 12:38-45

And then there is another interpretation that takes into consideration both “1 day = 1,000 years” - making it 3,000 years that the Son of Man will be “in the heart of the earth”.

and

Paul’s 1Cor. 15: 12-19 that says Christ must rise within each of us.

Of course, I have no idea what they do with 1Cor. 15:1-11.

PJ