Sign of Peace

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

EWTN or not, this is the attitude that has allowed so many innovations and abuses to run wild in our parishes.

First of all, those who have a problem with the innovations are doing just that, focusing on Christ, not each other.

Second, Father Mitch has not raised children. If one ignores misbehaviors to focus on the “Whole Child”, the behaviors just continue to build until a child is a problem. The liturgy is the same way. We have allowed these innovations in until the focus is on the community and not on the Eucharist.
Discussion only leads to improvement. Until forums like Catholic Answers came along, we didn’t know how uncomfortable other Catholics were with these innovations. Now is the time TO discuss these things. With knowledge comes power.

I am taken aback that this Priest would consider that those of us who have had to endure these innovations focus less on Christ than those that don’t. We have sat back quietly accepting all of the Historically Catholic postures taken away from us while the Modern innovations were smiled at.

We just want the Community in the Social Hall and the Mass in the church.

Quite true.

And to take this point further, it’s easy for Fr. Mitch to disdain discussions of liturgical posture. After all, he can stand in the pulpit and instruct people not to do certain things and, if he so chooses, he can drop the Sign of Peace entirely.

It’s different for us laity in the pews. We’re subjected to this forced collegiality whether we want to be or not. We don’t have the power to tell people not to or instruct people as to why it’s not appropriate.

I’m sure every Mass Fr. Pacwa attends is celebrated reverently and with solemnity and dignity. Why? Because he’s the one saying the Mass. He’s in control. He needs to cut some slack to those of us who don’t have the luxury of being priests and have to grind our teeth and silently endure liturgical abuse.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dr. Bombay:

Oh please. Spare me the “ancient liturgical act” canard. Never in history has the Sign of Peace (or Kiss of Peace) been what it is now, i.e. an opportunity to glad-hand and back-slap and take our focus off of Who, at that particular point in the Mass especially, should be our sole focus. Namely, Jesus Christ, present Body and Blood Soul and Divinity on the altar.

And just because a practice is ancient is irrelevant. Liturgy develops and to attempt to reverse that course by returning everything in the Mass to ancient practice is not development but corruption, as Cardinal Newman pointed out. Pius XII warned against this “wicked movement” in Mediator Dei.

Right you are on the Pius XII warning…which means we shouldn’t be pining for the TLM, but participating with good and willing hearts in the properly promulgated normative Mass of the Church.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

JKirkLVNV:

Right you are on the Pius XII warning…which means we shouldn’t be pining for the TLM, but participating with good and willing hearts in the properly promulgated normative Mass of the Church.

Oh, Kirk. Just when I think we’ve achieved détente, you go and throw me under the bus again. I’m so disappointed. :nope:

I do participate with a good and willing heart in the normative Mass of the Church. Both of them.

I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply that a Mass properly promulgated by Pius V and celebrated by all his lawful successors up to and including Benedict XVI is abnormal? :tsktsk:

 

[Lizbert]

plato3:

Father Mitch had a great show the other night on EWTN. He said that as long as we keep heated up discussions on posture Etc. the focus will remain off of Christ, which is the real tragedy.

I agree with Father Mitch, but there is no way you could even come close to focusing on Christ after the Sign of Peace at our parish. You have kids running up and down the aisles grabbing your hands and the priest goes down all of the aisles and shakes the hand of everyone within his reach. The Sign of Peace has taken on a life of its own is some churches.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Dr. Bombay:

I’ve got the perfect place they could put it. In the parish hall after Mass with a donut in one hand.

 

[paramedicgirl]

catsrus:

Most parishes could take a page from that book. In the 2 out of 3 Catholic Churches I’ve attended since my conversion, I’ve seen people running around all over to shake hands, hug, and hi-5 each other. It’s distracting and noisey.

And, most importantly, because it happens right after the consecration, it takes the focus off Jesus. I say ditch the sign of peace, and start focusing on the Real Presence.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Dr. Bombay:

I’m taking the long view, K. Maybe not in your lifetime or mine but, yes, it will eventually be supressed. So will girl altar boys, Communion in the hand and lay people prancing all over the sanctuary.

As I’ve said before, these are nothing but trendy additions to the Mass, an attempt to make the Church conform to the world, that will eventually be recognized for what they are and relegated to the liturgical closet of shame alongside felt wall hangings, OCP music and those awful plain polyester vestments.

The liturgical silly season of the past 40 years is a mere speck in the grand panoply of Church history and will be little noted nor long remembered.

I agree here with all said. And, the Church does not work in terms of days or years, rather things happen in terms of decades.

To rapidly remove the sign of peace would cause many hard feelings on the part of people who do not understand what the Eucharistic Prayer is and to whom it is addressed. The entire thing is addressed to God, except this extended sign of peace, which has become a free-for-all by many well-intended people. I know people in my family who would not understand, so I am of the position that it will need to be instructed from the pulpit. I see it gradually going away - first with a shift to somewhere earlier in the Mass, then it will be gone altogether. As stated in an earlier post, I too believe it may be later in my life time, or even after I’m gone that it disappears. I would be elated to see it moved and i think this will hapen within a few years.

My pastor opts out of this practice and it seemed cold at first. But, I immediately felt the lack of disruption in the flow of the Eucharistic prayer. And, that is the whole point behind questioning it.

To the poster’s original question, I do believe Cardinal Arinze was referring to those immediately in front or back as well. I think he is trying to say that walking all around the church is an abuse. I’ve seen people go on for rows and walking down aisles and yes, this is too far. Such signs of affection can certainly be shown frequently before and after Mass.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dr. Bombay:

Oh, Kirk. Just when I think we’ve achieved détente, you go and throw me under the bus again. I’m so disappointed. :nope:

I do participate with a good and willing heart in the normative Mass of the Church. Both of them.

I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply that a Mass properly promulgated by Pius V and celebrated by all his lawful successors up to and including Benedict XVI is abnormal? :tsktsk:

No, no, not at all! I’ve just heard that quotation you gave as an argument in the mouth of those who want the TLM to the exclusion of the Pauline Mass, as if nothing was up to snuff until Trent and nothing should have changed, neither jot nor tittle, after that. They use the quotation against those who would invoke patristic practice. Well, if this is true:

Liturgy develops and to attempt to reverse that course by returning everything in the Mass to ancient practice is not development but corruption, as Cardinal Newman pointed out. Pius XII warned against this “wicked movement” in Mediator Dei.

Then it can be used as an argument FOR the Pauline Mass (or an liturgical change licitly and lawfully made by future Popes). I’m not arguing FOR taking it all “back to ground zero” (Apostolic/Patristic disciplinary practice) in every instance (you have quite rightly pointed out, in other threads, that if we did that, we’d have public confessions and year(s) long penances), I’m simply saying that eventually, everything could become the ancient that Pope Pius and Cardinal Newman warned against. And I quite appreciate our “crabby” detente. Whether you believe it or not, you’re one of the “traditionalists” on these forums that I respect.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Lux_et_veritas:

To rapidly remove the sign of peace would cause many hard feelings on the part of people who do not understand what the Eucharistic Prayer is and to whom it is addressed. The entire thing is addressed to God, except this extended sign of peace, which has become a free-for-all by many well-intended people. I know people in my family who would not understand, so I am of the position that it will need to be instructed from the pulpit. I see it gradually going away - first with a shift to somewhere earlier in the Mass, then it will be gone altogether. As stated in an earlier post, I too believe it may be later in my life time, or even after I’m gone that it disappears. I would be elated to see it moved and i think this will hapen within a few years.

My pastor opts out of this practice and it seemed cold at first. But, I immediately felt the lack of disruption in the flow of the Eucharistic prayer. And, that is the whole point behind questioning it.

.

I was received into the Church in a Carmelite foundation that does not observe the Sign of Peace as it is observed in most parishes. I do not think it is appropriate, during the Sign, to do as we were urged by one priest and “ask the Jones about that new baby!” nor to lengthen it beyond exhanging the sign with those immediately around you (a fundamental flaw is that we, priests and people, have come to regard it as a greeting, which I don’t think we can argue that it is, see below), but I don’t think it is without at least a scriptural reference. Our Lord said (paraphrased) that if we were making our offering at the altar and remember that we’ve something against our brother or he against us, we should leave our offering at the altar and go and first be reconciled with our brother. The Sign of Peace SHOULD, I think, be viewed with this as it antecedent. Now, if that’s what it is, one can argue that it has a place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, albeit symbolic, though its current location seems very much a disruption of the Eucharistic Oblation (if it IS just a greeting, then I’m with Dr. Bombay, I want to break my fast with a doughnut and some caffeine before I’m forced to greet my brethren in Christ and the parish hall is more apporpriate). That’s why I think it would be more appropriate (done quietly, reverently, etc.) immediately after the Confietor (you’ve made peace with God, now do so with your neighbor).

Also, I would urge you not to fall into the trap that some traditionalists fall into of assuming, with either indignation or condescension, that people (read “unwashed, ignorant pew potatoes”) “do not understand what the Eucharistic Prayer is and to whom (Whom) it is addressed.” That only deepens the divisions in the Church and, IMHO, is really a flirtation with Gnosticism (some people have “exculsive,” or “advanced” knowledge and that’s what makes them great!). I’m not saying that we couldn’t stand better Catechesis, but I am saying that in my experience, I know Catholics who love shaking hands, love the orans position, love holding hands,etc, who would also go to their deaths for their belief in the Real Presence and the propitiatory nature of the Mass. I love them very much and hope to become as holy as some of them…I just try not to sit near them at Mass.

 

[lyoncoeur]

I think that as long as you can make your sign of peace without picking up your feet, that you should be okay…left, right, front and back…anything more would/could cause too much distraction. I went to Mass at a Parish a few weeks ago {not my normal parish} and not only were people getting into the aisle to make peace with every one, but the Priest was going up and down every pew offering peace to everyone he could reach from the main aisle of the church!

On a slightly similar topic, how many of you are experiencing this… Before the Entrance of the priest, someone goes up to the Pulpit, makes announcements like,

“Good Morning, Welcome to St. AllSaint’s Church, Today is the XX Sunday of Ordinary time, todays lector will be Jannie Dow, the Folk Choir will be Performing the music for Mass today, and Fr. Smith will be presiding, please turn off all cell phones and pagers…I invite all of you to turn and greet/welcome the people around you …ok, lets begin our celebration”

Has anyone else noticed this trend… while it’s …ahem!..nice, and friendly, it’s also a bit distracting when someone is trying to experience some sacred silence and prayer before Mass begins…it’s not so much the announcements that disturb me as the "…I invite all of you to turn and greet/welcome the people around you " part…which usually preceeds alot of hand shaking, back slapping and idle talk…for a few mins.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

lyoncoeur:

I think that as long as you can make your sign of peace without picking up your feet, that you should be okay…left, right, front and back…anything more would/could cause too much distraction. I went to Mass at a Parish a few weeks ago {not my normal parish} and not only were people getting into the aisle to make peace with every one, but the Priest was going up and down every pew offering peace to everyone he could reach from the main aisle of the church!

On a slightly similar topic, how many of you are experiencing this… Before the Entrance of the priest, someone goes up to the Pulpit, makes announcements like,

“Good Morning, Welcome to St. AllSaint’s Church, Today is the XX Sunday of Ordinary time, todays lector will be Jannie Dow, the Folk Choir will be Performing the music for Mass today, and Fr. Smith will be presiding, please turn off all cell phones and pagers…I invite all of you to turn and greet/welcome the people around you …ok, lets begin our celebration”

Has anyone else noticed this trend… while it’s …ahem!..nice, and friendly, it’s also a bit distracting when someone is trying to experience some sacred silence and prayer before Mass begins…it’s not so much the announcements that disturb me as the "…I invite all of you to turn and greet/welcome the people around you " part…which usually preceeds alot of hand shaking, back slapping and idle talk…for a few mins.

Not the greeting bit (“greeting” I would hate!), but our music director does “welcome to the XXX Sunday of Advent, please turn off cell phones, our processional hymn is XXX, please stand and greet our celebrant, Father XXX.” It isn’t perfect, BUT…I wish they’d do announcements THEN instead of after the intercessory prayers and before the offeratory. Talk about disrupting the flow!!! Either that or just assume that if we’ve managed to drive to Mass, we can also manage to read the bulletin or at least access the information from someone else. Our former pastor was DEVOTED to the announcements, he put more into them than he did the homily.

 

[totustuusmaria]

I think the sign of Peace should be done the way it is in the Chaldean rite:

the priest gives peace to the deacon who gives it to the altar servers who give it to the congregation. The people recieve “peace” by putting their hands on the outside of the person from whom they are recieving it and then hold their hands together until they have given peace to the next person in the line.

The sign out to proceed from the priest or else it is just people being friendly to eachother.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

*Also, I would urge you not to fall into the trap that some traditionalists fall into of assuming, with either indignation or condescension, that people (read “unwashed, ignorant pew potatoes”) “do not understand what the Eucharistic Prayer is and to whom (Whom) it is addressed.” That only deepens the divisions in the Church and, IMHO, is really a flirtation with Gnosticism (some people have “exculsive,” or “advanced” knowledge and that’s what makes them great!).* I’m not saying that we couldn’t stand better Catechesis, but I am saying that in my experience, I know Catholics who love shaking hands, love the orans position, love holding hands,etc, who would also go to their deaths for their belief in the Real Presence and the propitiatory nature of the Mass. I love them very much and hope to become as holy as some of them…I just try not to sit near them at Mass.

I have to go back to what I originally said. I KNOW people who would not understand why the sign of peace suddenly disappeared and they would be deeply offended. This says nothing of their reverence towards the Eucharist, but simply acknowledges that there are people who do not understand the Mass in detail.

Maybe I did not make it clear enough that I was acknowledging that the sign of peace should be removed, with catechesis, to help people understand why contact with neighbor is not practical at this point of the Mass. Or, simply moved to another part of the Mass since it is hard to keep people coralled (it would be an endless battle).

At my parish we do not exchange the sign of peace. Here are the words of my pastor, Fr. Eduard Perrone, in one of his sermons on the topic of the Rite of Peace at Mass:

assumptiongrotto.com/Sermons/mass_talks_18.htm

 

[Dr.Bombay]

JKirkLVNV:

No, no, not at all! I’ve just heard that quotation you gave as an argument in the mouth of those who want the TLM to the exclusion of the Pauline Mass, as if nothing was up to snuff until Trent and nothing should have changed, neither jot nor tittle, after that. They use the quotation against those who would invoke patristic practice. Well, if this is true:

Liturgy develops and to attempt to reverse that course by returning everything in the Mass to ancient practice is not development but corruption, as Cardinal Newman pointed out. Pius XII warned against this “wicked movement” in Mediator Dei.

Then it can be used as an argument FOR the Pauline Mass (or an liturgical change licitly and lawfully made by future Popes). I’m not arguing FOR taking it all “back to ground zero” (Apostolic/Patristic disciplinary practice) in every instance (you have quite rightly pointed out, in other threads, that if we did that, we’d have public confessions and year(s) long penances), I’m simply saying that eventually, everything could become the ancient that Pope Pius and Cardinal Newman warned against. And I quite appreciate our “crabby” detente. Whether you believe it or not, you’re one of the “traditionalists” on these forums that I respect.

Awwww…thanks, Kirk. sniff http://bestsmileys.com/crying/12.gif

You’re one of the “normative” Catholics that I respect. Now, if we could just agree on the necessity of the silent Canon.

 

[robertaf]

Dr. Bombay:

I’ve got the perfect place they could put it. In the parish hall after Mass with a donut in one hand.

The congregational Sign of Peace is going to eventually be supressed. Why don’t they just do it now and get it out of the way? This persistent novus ordo navel gazing is wearing thin. :nope:

Greetings,

Have you ever thought of checking out SSPX?
I have know a few from there, I really think you would love it.
The folks I knew seemed to talk a lot like you do.
That was up in Spokane. I think they are all around the country.

 

[Anna_s_Mom]

I would never refuse anyone. Why would you snub others kindness?? It seems that children especially give the sign of peace to all that they can.

 

[robertaf]

I just read more posts and some of you would seem to say that giving the sign of peace could take up time that would restrict giving Communion. I had no idea that we were on a real strict time schedule although I do see folks leaving right after communion or some complaining because Mass lasts too long.

I also see folks who say that when they bless their neighbor with the sign of Peace it takes thier eyes of the Lord. That is interesting since each member is part of the Body of our Lord. They are all children of God or what I like to call King’s Kids. We are brothers and sisters. Didn’t Jesus give us a new command, to love our neighbor as ourselves. That, he said is the second commandment.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Heck, I leave my handgun at home when I go to Mass. What clearer sign is there of my peaceful intentions?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

robertaf:

I just read more posts and some of you would seem to say that giving the sign of peace could take up time that would restrict giving Communion. I had no idea that we were on a real strict time schedule although I do see folks leaving right after communion or some complaining because Mass lasts too long.

I also see folks who say that when they bless their neighbor with the sign of Peace it takes thier eyes of the Lord. That is interesting since each member is part of the Body of our Lord…

And, God gives us all that wonderful time outside of Church to spend time with our families and friends to extend the love he gives to us through the Eucharist.

Two flaws with the time issue you raise. Most who support and end to the sign of peace during the Eucharistic Prayer are traditional and orthdoox. Most support communion at a rail and on the tongue, which automatically extends the Mass, but they do not care.

This is not about snubbing our neighbor, nor is it about not loving the people next to us during Mass. All the hugs in the world during Mass do not necessarily translate to true love of neighbor. There are a good many who are forced into an extra long disruption of the Mass with people walking all over the Church to hug and greet others. The time issue in my previous sentence has nothing to do with how long the Mass goes on. We have no sign of peace extended in my parish and the Masses are easily an hour and a half. I don’t even notice time when I’m at Church, often arriving around 8:30 or 9:00 for choir rehearsal (9:30 Mass ending at 11:00) then leaving somewhere around 2 or 3 in the afternoon with a whole lot of other people who recognize:

They are all children of God or what I like to call King’s Kids. We are brothers and sisters. Didn’t Jesus give us a new command, to love our neighbor as ourselves. That, he said is the second commandment.

We don’t wait for an occassional coffee and donut Sunday to mingle, hug, kiss, shake hands and spend quality time together. We BBQ each Sunday, having hot dogs, hamburgers, sausages, cakes, donuts, etc. while the young kids play together, the teens play basketball and cards, and many of the opposite sex have a chance to mingle in an environment full of people with like values. The pastor says it is the one parish he is aware of where it is not uncommon to see people still there at 3 or 4:00 in the afternoon. Some groups of adults gather for different purposes - prayer, rosary, a short lecture in the parish hall by one of the Canons, pastor or other guest.

Show me another parish like this where hands and hugs go on for five minutes in the middle of Mass.

The point is that we make GOD the center of the Mass and we reserve for before and after the time that is meant for others. And, when we give it, it is quality time.

I’ve seen way to many people ready to bust down the doors to get out of Church on Sundays and they might have been greeting half the parish during Mass.

The Mass is not about people. It is about the unconditional worship of God. During the Mass we work toward’s detaching ourselves from all that is not Him. Imagine that - an entire hour where God, not our family, our friends, our neighbor are not the priority, but God almighty himself - the one who gave us life and each other.

There is also a common misconception that physical interaction must bake place during the Mass to represent some kind of unity and connection to those around us. This is all too false and takes away from people ascending to the highest level of worship, contemplative in nature, which is true mystical union - not just with those physically next to us, but with those all over the world, in heaven and on earth and with the Angels. We spend that hour to join them all, mystically, in the praise and worship of our God and Lord, and it requires no hand holding at all. Many of us see the sign of peace as stirring us from that contemplative union we hope God will grace us with during Holy Mass.

Too many make the Mass about the people and this is where things begin to fall apart. This is why I see extended families and nearby pew-sitters adoring babies all the way through Mass in most parishes. They are suppose to adore God and Jesus for just this one hour. In mine, I’ve witnessed more than one mother simply not pay attention to a baby looking for attention. Her message is simple - this is not your hour, it belongs to God. Maybe that is why I see pews full of 8 or 10 kids so well behaved and without cheerios, nintendo and toys, unlike all the other parishes I’ve been to (8-9 or more).

 

[robertaf]

Do you mean because the length of time for the sign of peace is very long in some churches, there are those who want to get rid of it entirely?
Now, THAT IS throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Why not just instruct the folks?
The sign of peace during Mass goes back to the Apostles time.