T
thistle
Guest
Thanks. I’ve bookmarked it. I haven’t read through it yet but does it point out and specify the adaptions which are for the USA?
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T
thistle
Guest
I found the notes about the adaptions but unfortunately that does not help me because it doesn’t say what the wording was before the adaptions for USA. Can you tell me where to find the latest original without the USA adaptions?
P
paramedicgirl
Guest
Dr. Bombay:
My sentiments exactly!
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
My primary “ministry” to the Church is to evangalize to the “coming home” via RCIA and to teaching CCD to H.S. Freshmen whose families aren’t practicing very well. These six boys come to my home weekly for catechesis. In both cases of people I have been involved in at RCIA and CCD, they often have to come to Mass by themself because of insufficent family support. And in all cases, they have in one way told me of feelings of not being welcome because the people around them barely ever acknowledge them unless it is negative (one heard a not so quiet whisper "well he is “Tammy’s boy” that was at least interpreted derogatorily).
So, for this reason, whenever I see someone sitting alone, I’m going to make a point to personally express an enthusiastic Sign of Peace. Sometimes, it requires me to turn around and make eye contact with another several pews away and give them the peace sign.
This being said, the glad handing and walking around that people describe is not appropriate according to the GIRM and the spirit intended. We don’t need to touch every person’s hand to communicate the Sign of Peace universally to everyone. The Priest should contain his expression to those on the altar. As part of the Body of Christ and esp. in this setting, quietly and joyfully, we can express the Peace to all in the worship space by focusing primarily on those in our immediate vicinity.
Regarding returning it to a symbol, if it is a symbol without the sincerity of the participant, it is an empty vessel devoid of meaning. Every symbol in the Church is supposed to be alive and meaningful.
I apologize to you now Dr. Bombay and anyone who feels that the Sign of Peace is a distraction to your private personal focus. In the big scheme of things, I’m more concerned about people struggling to come home and be a better Christian than one who believes as you do. Mass is a public worship. It is not to be our only worship as we have a multitude of private opportunities for devotion. This is one time a week and for a couple of SECONDS that I can personally in the context of the Real Presence to joyfully express to those around me that Jesus loves them and I do to.
Personally, when I go before my Creator, I know He is going to make me face all the times I have disapointed Him and it makes me tremble. At the same time, I am comforted by the hope that He will also say to me “I appreciate the times you shared the Love I gave you wih others. Well done My son, welcome home.”
N
netmilsmom
Guest
So for your own soul, you’re going to forget that you might be invading on someone’s prayer and making them uncomfortable. From what I see, that is part of the problem.
I really have no problem with the sign of peace. But I believe that eye contact should be the rule of consideration.
My heart goes out to the boys you know. But cutting into the personal space of a praying adult may be doing the opposite of what you intend. It could be a revert, trying again only to be appalled by this gesture in Mass. Waiting 15 minutes to meet and greet that person may be the way to go.
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
A
aria13
Guest
Dr. Bombay…
Don’t worry, I highly doubt I will or would ever greet you in Mass. One can tell if someone is into meditation/communing with God. Plus, if a person is emitting not the friendliest vibes, he/she would be left alone anyway. I was refering to the person who is alone…many times elderly, who have had no contact with people for several days, or the new comer to the Church. You can see them if you look around and observe before Mass starts. They usually look lonely, looking around for someone to acknowledge them. Or, if during Mass they are looking confused as to what Mass setting is being used, or where to find the scripture readings for the day. It certainly would be nice to have someone help out. (but we know one can’t move during Mass, it might be distracting, rather than helpful or friendly.)
Don’t worry, I highly doubt I will or would ever greet you in Mass. One can tell if someone is into meditation/communing with God. Plus, if a person is emitting not the friendliest vibes, he/she would be left alone anyway. I was refering to the person who is alone…many times elderly, who have had no contact with people for several days, or the new comer to the Church. You can see them if you look around and observe before Mass starts. They usually look lonely, looking around for someone to acknowledge them. Or, if during Mass they are looking confused as to what Mass setting is being used, or where to find the scripture readings for the day. It certainly would be nice to have someone help out. (but we know one can’t move during Mass, it might be distracting, rather than helpful or friendly.)
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I apologize to you that my gesture of joyfully expressing the Peace of Christ through a smile and handshake (you must be relieved that we no longer have the "Kiss of Peace) causes you consternation. I admit that I believe that I have come into contact w/ people who feel as you do and I’ve respectfully responded with eye contact and an acknowledged bow. But for every person who feels as you do, it is my experience that there are 10 lonely or disconnected people who long for this expression of Jesus’ love from another human being.
As you posted another thread about holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, shaking hands is the custom in the U.S. for expressions of greeting and exchanging good will. If you want to adopt the Japanese custom of bowing, I’m sure you will do so joyfully such that the intent of the Church is communicated to your fellow public worshippers.
From the CC:
1068 It is this mystery of Christ that the Church proclaims and celebrates in her liturgy so that the faithful may live from it and bear witness to it in the world:
For it is in the liturgy, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, that “the work of our redemption is accomplished,” and it is through the liturgy especially that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church.
What does the word liturgy mean?
1069 The word “liturgy” originally meant a “public work” or a “service in the name of/on behalf of the people.” In Christian tradition it means the participation of the People of God in “the work of God.” Through the liturgy Christ, our redeemer and high priest, continues the work of our redemption in, with, and through his Church.
I think that you and I have a very different concept of the Mass. The Mass is a public worship and not a private devotion among many individuals. We are to commune together in the Mass as the Body of Christ. Thus, there is no private space. We are to be one as Christ calls us to unity and not just a collection.
I apologize to you that my gesture of joyfully expressing the Peace of Christ through a smile and handshake (you must be relieved that we no longer have the "Kiss of Peace) causes you consternation. I admit that I believe that I have come into contact w/ people who feel as you do and I’ve respectfully responded with eye contact and an acknowledged bow. But for every person who feels as you do, it is my experience that there are 10 lonely or disconnected people who long for this expression of Jesus’ love from another human being.
As you posted another thread about holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, shaking hands is the custom in the U.S. for expressions of greeting and exchanging good will. If you want to adopt the Japanese custom of bowing, I’m sure you will do so joyfully such that the intent of the Church is communicated to your fellow public worshippers.
From the CC:
1068 It is this mystery of Christ that the Church proclaims and celebrates in her liturgy so that the faithful may live from it and bear witness to it in the world:
For it is in the liturgy, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, that “the work of our redemption is accomplished,” and it is through the liturgy especially that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church.
What does the word liturgy mean?
1069 The word “liturgy” originally meant a “public work” or a “service in the name of/on behalf of the people.” In Christian tradition it means the participation of the People of God in “the work of God.” Through the liturgy Christ, our redeemer and high priest, continues the work of our redemption in, with, and through his Church.
M
MrS
Guest
Just an observation from someone who was out of the church for 25 years, came back in the early 90’s and did not recognize the Catholic Church from what I had remembered.
I was puzzled/distressed at what I preceived as tons of fellowship having replaced tons of “smells & bells”. It was not a comfortable home-coming.
It could be summarized using the words above …
“… it is the custom…”
That is the foundation of my concern… it seems to be more about us, and less about HIM.
If the Mass is, as said, a public worship of God, should we not come to Him on His terms… with silence, reverence, inner desires to worship HIM… and leave the rest at the door (or in the activity center)… as is the “custom” for being in the presence of the Real Presence?
(my 3 cents worth - inflation happens when the posts go over 100)
J
Joysong
Guest
Clarification …
I just received a P.M. from a member who misunderstood, I think, what I was attempting to say to Dr. Bombay with a picture.
One of the major changes in Vatican II was to lift people from a “Jesus and me” concept to a “Jesus and we” manner of thinking. As Orion expressed so eloquently, liturgy is a communal celebration of the Body of Christ. Does the eye have the right to say “I am not of the body” or the arm to say “leave me alone, I am not connected?” No, we are many parts united in Christ.
I believe the sign of peace expresses that recognition of one another before the awesome moment when we are actually mystically joined in communion. It is foreign to my understanding to find someone who prefers to be isolated from others and maintain a “Jesus and me” privacy.
Carole
I just received a P.M. from a member who misunderstood, I think, what I was attempting to say to Dr. Bombay with a picture.
His words left me shivering from the coldness of his viewpoint. I don’t believe attacking his reasoning would serve any good purpose, for he believes what he chooses to believe. But I simply wanted to express how it makes me feel.
One of the major changes in Vatican II was to lift people from a “Jesus and me” concept to a “Jesus and we” manner of thinking. As Orion expressed so eloquently, liturgy is a communal celebration of the Body of Christ. Does the eye have the right to say “I am not of the body” or the arm to say “leave me alone, I am not connected?” No, we are many parts united in Christ.
I believe the sign of peace expresses that recognition of one another before the awesome moment when we are actually mystically joined in communion. It is foreign to my understanding to find someone who prefers to be isolated from others and maintain a “Jesus and me” privacy.
Carole
F
fix
Guest
What documents can show me this?
N
netmilsmom
Guest
You have no need to apologize to me.
I stated in my previous post that I have no problem with the “Sign of Peace”. I don’t so to state that I do is incorrect. Actually, I like it, but I am in a parish where it is subtle and consideration is given to those who do not.
I see how you feel but I do not see any of this as Physical. We “commune together” spiritually. We pray together. Much of our lives as Catholics is a spiritual joining. My soul sings in communion with others. Afterall, in Christianity the sins of the body are what we are trying to overcome.
For those people that you find, I can find 10 others who would prefer to commune physically outside of the mass. So, it has nothing to do with common consideration of feelings.
When someone does not meet my glance, I will say, “Peace be with you my friend!”. If they then meet my eyes, I will advance to physical, if they do not, I have wished peace, soul to soul. Everyone has comfort zones. I like to remember that.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
DING, DING, DING! We have a winner!
You are spot on! I have seen people seaching for the friend at church. Those are the people that we approach.
Much of it is to pay attention to those around us.
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear Fix,
I’m perceiving that unless everything one says is supported in a document, it is not credible? Why do I need to produce a document to prove what is a common understanding of the faithful?
Carole
I’m perceiving that unless everything one says is supported in a document, it is not credible? Why do I need to produce a document to prove what is a common understanding of the faithful?
May I ask that you kindly give me the benefit of your doubt that I do not somehow appreciate, relish, or understand the periods of silence in the liturgy? Silence has nothing to do with the sign of peace, would you not agree? At that moment, silence and personal preference for private prayer is truly not the norm, yet the charitable among us will honor and respect those persons for where they are spiritually, even though we may feel uncomfortable about their apparent aloofness.
Carole
F
fix
Guest
For one reason if we follow your reasoning anything goes. We may claim as we wish.
I think often the sign of peace has often become extended and a bit silly. The quote I provided was to offer a suggestion that silence is too often overlooked while happy clappy is seen as a “norm”. Just my opinion.
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear Fix,
Maybe this will support the “Jesus and we” concept without having to pore through volumes of church documents.
OUR Father, Who art in heaven …
Maybe this will support the “Jesus and we” concept without having to pore through volumes of church documents.
OUR Father, Who art in heaven …
F
fix
Guest
It is not about me versus we. It is about a general notion that corporate worship must mean we emphasize horizontal more than vertical and it is about the idea before 1962 the poor peasants were duped and we finally got it right.
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear Fix,
I think we are off topic, and I don’t think it would serve any good purpose to continue. I sense that you are attributing meanings to my words that I never expressed.
I think we are off topic, and I don’t think it would serve any good purpose to continue. I sense that you are attributing meanings to my words that I never expressed.
F
fix
Guest
I do not want to veer off topic. My general point in these types of threads is that I find a type of thinking that issues like hand holding, sign of peace, modern music, etc can be taken to an extreme and that extreme is often defended as a legitimate change as ordained by VII and I question that stance.
Not necessarily the practice, but how that practice is understood and performed.
M
maryj
Guest
God bless you for your work. There are so many stuffed shirts out there that tend to think that you either worship the way they do or you are wrong. I would gladly hold those boys hands during the our Father to let them know I care, and wish them the Lords peace. The others who care not I will not “bother”. Once again God Bless you and send you His Peace for all you are doing for those boys.
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