Sign of Peace

[paramedicgirl]

aria13:

Dr. Bombay…

Don’t worry, I highly doubt I will or would ever greet you in Mass. One can tell if someone is into meditation/communing with God. Plus, if a person is emitting not the friendliest vibes, he/she would be left alone anyway. I was refering to the person who is alone…many times elderly, who have had no contact with people for several days, or the new comer to the Church. You can see them if you look around and observe before Mass starts. They usually look lonely, looking around for someone to acknowledge them. Or, if during Mass they are looking confused as to what Mass setting is being used, or where to find the scripture readings for the day. It certainly would be nice to have someone help out. (but we know one can’t move during Mass, it might be distracting, rather than helpful or friendly.)

So why not take the time to talk to these people before or after Mass, and show an interest in them that way? To me, that’s more personal and appropriate than making my way over to them to shake their hand at the sign of peace. How many people would you have to brush by or trip over to get to them?

 

[Orionthehunter]

paramedicgirl:

So why not take the time to talk to these people before or after Mass, and show an interest in them that way? To me, that’s more personal and appropriate than making my way over to them to shake their hand at the sign of peace. How many people would you have to brush by or trip over to get to them?

I agree to follow the instructions at the closing of Mass to communicate to those alone and in need of fellowship is personal and important. However, if you were to study the theological purpose of hte Sign of Peace, this is the most personal and appropriate expression of our love for our fellow Christians. We extend the sign of peace in the presence of the Real Presence and we do it as a part of the Body of Christ and our individual act to those next to us spiritually extends the act in concert with Christ to everyone else. Additionally, the Sign of Peace is an outward sign that we accept our fellow worshippers petition that to be forgiven for our sins when we said the Confiteor earlier in the Mass. Doing so in the presence of the Real Presence “seals” that we have as humans truly forgiven them.

By the way, no one that I’ve seen on this thread advocates stumbling over anyone. The GIRM is clear that teh Sign of Peace is to be done to those in our immediate vicinity.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Orionthehunter:

I agree to follow the instructions at the closing of Mass to communicate to those alone and in need of fellowship is personal and important. However, if you were to study the theological purpose of hte Sign of Peace, this is the most personal and appropriate expression of our love for our fellow Christians. We extend the sign of peace in the presence of the Real Presence and we do it as a part of the Body of Christ and our individual act to those next to us spiritually extends the act in concert with Christ to everyone else. Additionally, the Sign of Peace is an outward sign that we accept our fellow worshippers petition that to be forgiven for our sins when we said the Confiteor earlier in the Mass. Doing so in the presence of the Real Presence “seals” that we have as humans truly forgiven them.

By the way, no one that I’ve seen on this thread advocates stumbling over anyone. The GIRM is clear that teh Sign of Peace is to be done to those in our immediate vicinity
.

Exactly my point. But some have advocated extending the sign of peace to that lonely older person who is sitting several rows away. This would involve reaching over people, and would be rather invasive to their personal space, unless of course it is a verbal peace that is being referred to. The people sitting closest to them are the ones who should give the sign of peace.

maryj said -So, for this reason, whenever I see someone sitting alone, I’m going to make a point to personally express an enthusiastic Sign of Peace. Sometimes, it requires me to turn around and make eye contact with another several pews away and give them the peace sign.

 

[MrS]

paramedicgirl:

So why not take the time to talk to these people before or after Mass, and show an interest in them that way? To me, that’s more personal and appropriate than making my way over to them to shake their hand at the sign of peace. How many people would you have to brush by or trip over to get to them?

That’s what I call 10 pounds of common sense in a 1 pound post.

Good Post

 

[netmilsmom]

paramedicgirl:

Exactly my point. But some have advocated extending the sign of peace to that lonely older person who is sitting several rows away. This would involve reaching over people, and would be rather invasive to their personal space, unless of course it is a verbal peace that is being referred to. The people sitting closest to them are the ones who should give the sign of peace.

And I will add to your thought that maybe meeting and greeting in the gathering space after mass could start something meaningful for a lonely or needy person.
Nothing makes a difference for the 5 minutes in church when that person walks out of mass and is greeted by no one.
Peace can be outside of the handshake in Mass and should be acted upon there as well.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Funny, but it seems to me some of the most ostentatious Our Father hand-holders (including that ridiculous hand-lifting at the Doxology) and Sign of Peace back-slappers are some of the first to scatter like cockroaches the minute the congregation intones, “Thanks be to God” after the Postcommunion. Sometimes, even well before that. “Community worship?” Really???

Some of these same people are the loudest talkers before and after Mass within the nave of the Church. Nevermind they might be distracting someone who might wish to spend that time praying. Naw, it’s all about themselves. “Community worship?” Really???

And then there’s the judgementalism. Anyone who doesn’t see Mass like they do as a Hee-Haw howdy-do is a “stuffed shirt,” “uncharitable” or “frigid.” Because, of course, there’s only one way to see the Mass. The way they see it. “Community worship?” Really???

I have been shamed by my lack of knowledge of the theological underpinnings of an optional gesture at Mass. Not to mention my pitiful disregard of the renowned “Jesus and We” declaration of Vatican II. I’m mortified at my stupidity. :bigyikes:

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

As I continue to read this thread, something jumped out:

Some see “Jesus and we” as limited to some form of physical or visual contact with those around us during the Mass.

It misses a key point and I was born in '62 and have never attended a TLM, was raised on kum-ba-yah. However, I recently began assisting at a Latin Novus Ordo that is done in a traditional manner (read that, it is very reverent, very silent, and without lots of flare and dynamics).

Why is that important to some Catholics?

It is a sad and quite judgmental mistake to think that someone sitting at the end of the pew seemingly alone is actually alone. Rather, the person at the end of the pew who seems alone, may be far more connected not only with those around him, but with the entire Mystical Body, and the angels ever present during each and every Mass.

The contemplative dimension is often overlooked, but then again it is a very deep concept to grasp. Those who don’t get it, see the lack of hand-holding as “cold”. You won’t see much hugging and hand-holding or hand-shaking, back-pats, in a Carmelite convent or Trappist monastery. However, these contemplative nuns and monks are far more connected in the sense of “we” than most realize. And by “we” I don’t mean just their community. Rather, they are connected with the mystical body.

I could not have said this six months ago, but now that I have been deeply into this reverent and reserved Mass at Assumption Grotto, I have been distracted from my contemplative worship when in the presence of a celebrant who is a little too bubbly in liturgies elsewhere, like when I attend funerals or for other reasons. When the Mass is “busy” with activity, it stirs me from that contemplative worship and contemplative worship is far from “Jesus and I”.

The object is to connect with God in a mystical way. When we do that, through His grace, we reach mystical union with everyone in heaven and on earth.

 

[Joysong]

Diane,

The contemplative dimension is often overlooked, but then again it is a very deep concept to grasp. Those who don’t get it, see the lack of hand-holding as “cold”. You won’t see much hugging and hand-holding or hand-shaking, back-pats, in a Carmelite convent or Trappist monastery. However, these contemplative nuns and monks are far more connected in the sense of “we” than most realize.

I am a Carmelite, OCDS, and have been to liturgies on a regular basis with the Carmelite nuns who are in community with us, especially when a member is clothed or professed. Believe me, these “contemplative” nuns do not become isolated in contemplation during a liturgy, which is not the place for it.

Maybe you need to rethink this a bit, for I think you are overlooking the main purpose of liturgy. Will you accept and believe me that these nuns extend the appropriate gesture of peace and do not sit silently contemplating their God, wishing nobody would disturb them?

In another thread, you spoke rather strongly about people who speak in tongues during a liturgy, and commented that the Holy Spirit would not inspire someone to go against the church’s directives for liturgy. Yet in this case, you seem to condone that an individual may ignore the guideline and keep his prayerful contemplative distance from the worshipping community. Now who is following the Holy Spirit in this matter?

 

[Joysong]

Hi Diane,

Thinking a bit about our beautiful celebrations in Carmel with the nuns, I happened to remember something that will cause a few raised eyebrows with some of our traditionalists. These very nuns also served along with the priest as Eucharistic Ministers of Holy Communion – two of them at each mass serving the cup! And wonder to behold, they received in the hand - standing!

Trivia for the day …
Carole

 

[maryj]

paramedicgirl:

Exactly my point. But some have advocated extending the sign of peace to that lonely older person who is sitting several rows away. This would involve reaching over people, and would be rather invasive to their personal space, unless of course it is a verbal peace that is being referred to. The people sitting closest to them are the ones who should give the sign of peace.

Quote- maryj said…

I hate to point this out but it wasn’t me who made that statement. But I do agree with orionthehunter. Just to clear up my points on a few things…
I do not hold hands during the Our Father
I do not jump over pews and slap backs during the sign of peace
I do not hold my hands in the orions positions at any time during the mass
I bow very reverently before receiving the Eucharist
and last but not least I do spend time after mass speaking with those who are PHYSICALLY alone at the mass. It’s just good manners!!! and yet I will still make eye contact with others who are trying to jump pews, and slap my back. that’s just good manners too…

 

[MrS]

Joysong:

Hi Diane,

Thinking a bit about our beautiful celebrations in Carmel with the nuns, I happened to remember something that will cause a few raised eyebrows with some of our traditionalists. These very nuns also served along with the priest as Eucharistic Ministers of Holy Communion – two of them at each mass serving the cup! And wonder to behold, they received in the hand - standing!

Trivia for the day …
Carole

This should raise the eyebrows of ANY Catholic… but I must ask you if you approve of their action, and if you actually meant to say they were “allowed” to act as Eucharistic Ministers. I say act, because they are not and can never be Eucharistic Ministers.

Somebody started doing something wrong… and got into the habit.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Diane,

I am a Carmelite, OCDS, and have been to liturgies on a regular basis with the Carmelite nuns who are in community with us, especially when a member is clothed or professed. Believe me, these “contemplative” nuns do not become isolated in contemplation during a liturgy, which is not the place for it.

Maybe you need to rethink this a bit, for I think you are overlooking the main purpose of liturgy. Will you accept and believe me that these nuns extend the appropriate gesture of peace and do not sit silently contemplating their God, wishing nobody would disturb them?

Lets look at what Pope John Paull II says about contemplative worship (full text here):

1. The challenge now is to move beyond whatever misunderstandings there have been and to reach the proper point of balance, especially by entering more deeply into the contemplative dimension of worship, which includes the sense of awe, reverence and adoration which are fundamental attitudes in our relationship with God. **This will happen only if we recognize that the liturgy has dimensions both local and universal, time-bound and eternal, horizontal and vertical, subjective and objective. It is precisely these tensions which give to Catholic worship its distinctive character. **The universal Church is united in the one great act of praise; but it is always the worship of a particular community in a particular culture. It is the eternal worship of Heaven, but it is also steeped in time. It gathers and builds a human community, but it is also “the worship of the divine majesty” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 33). It is subjective in that it depends radically upon what the worshippers bring to it; but it is objective in that it transcends them as the priestly act of Christ himself, to which he associates us but which ultimately does not depend upon us (ibid., 7). This is why it is so important that liturgical law be respected. The priest, who is the servant of the liturgy, not its inventor or producer, has a particular responsibility in this regard, lest he empty liturgy of its true meaning or obscure its sacred character. The core of the mystery of Christian worship is the sacrifice of Christ offered to the Father and the work of the Risen Christ who sanctifies his People through the liturgical signs. It is therefore essential that in seeking to enter more deeply into the contemplative depths of worship the inexhaustible mystery of the priesthood of Jesus Christ be fully acknowledged and respected…

I’ll continue in my next post to address the next issue you raised.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

In another thread, you spoke rather strongly about people who speak in tongues during a liturgy, and commented that the Holy Spirit would not inspire someone to go against the church’s directives for liturgy. **Yet in this case, you seem to condone that an individual may ignore the guideline and keep his prayerful contemplative distance from the worshipping community. **Now who is following the Holy Spirit in this matter?

1. Then the priest, with hands extended, says aloud the prayer, Domine Iesu Christe, qui dixisti (Lord Jesus Christ, you said). After this prayer is concluded, extending and then joining his hands, he gives the greeting of peace while facing the people and saying, Pax Domini sit simper vobiscum (The peace of the Lord be with you always). The people answer, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Afterwards, when appropriate, the priest adds, Offerte vobis pacem (Let us offer each other the sign of peace).

I believe that if a priest opts to invite the people to exchange a sign of peace, then it would be charitable to not refuse a hand from those on either side and to make a gesture to those on either side. When the priest opts to do this, I believe it should be followed, but with reverent disposition for the fact that our Lord is on the altar.

However, I also found myself in a position, before preferring not to engage in the practice, extending my hand and having it refused by an elderly couple. Instead of getting annoyed as did others around me, I exercised charity in recognizing this was difficult for them, given how they were raised. I smiled gently to let them know it was ok. So, the charity thing goes two ways. I have encountered others who appeared to prefer simply to look at me and nod and I graciously responded in kind rather than to force my hand their way. I did not judge their intentions. It was only later that I preferred not to be disturbed from the Eucharistic Prayer, which is addressed entirely to God, except for when peopel begin to exchange a sign of peace at which time it switches from God to people, back to God.

My belief is that this good thing has become an out-of-control bad thing as people wander around the Church (not at Grotto because the priests do not invite us to exchange the sign of peace there). I’ve seen people walking from one end of the Church to the other as Jesus lay on the altar.

Therfore, my preference is to see this shifted to a part of the Mass where it will become a greeting, such as at the very beginning priot to the penitential rite, and without all the disruptive chaos. Save all of that for the parish hall.

 

[Joysong]

Diane,

There was no need to shout, and none to explain the contemplative dimension of liturgy, for I expressed my agreement with this a few posts ago. It may have helped to ask me where we are disagreeing.

May I ask that you kindly give me the benefit of your doubt that I do not somehow appreciate, relish, or understand the periods of silence in the liturgy? Silence has nothing to do with the sign of peace, would you not agree? At that moment, silence and personal preference for private prayer is truly not the norm.

Doesn’t my profession as a Carmelite suggest to you, a fellow Carmelite, that I am also called to and revere contemplation? I joined the order since 1981 — nearly 25 years ago, so I am not a novice to contemplative prayer.

I still fail to see how contemplation would be a norm at the sign of peace, which is what I tried to point out. Even the strict order of contemplative nuns in Carmel does not observe contemplation at the sign of peace. I do not think you heard me.

======================================

Oops, sorry, I just noticed that we were posting simultaneously and I still had time to edit this post. I agree with you totally about respecting the desires of others who are not able to participate in the gesture of peace. I said as much previously. And it is true that some parishes get carried away to a more extended greeting than what is called for in the rite. So in the same vein, can we not respect their over-enthusiasm as a condition of their spiritual development, recognizing that is where they are, as much as those who are opposed to it?

Clearly catechesis from the pastor would be something needed to achieve a balance of sorts. But you know, Diane? I don’t think some would respect his teaching and still prefer to follow their own way. So where does that leave the rest of us ----- arguing about it?

Carole

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Diane,

There was no need to shout, and none to explain the contemplative dimension of liturgy, for I expressed my agreement with this a few posts ago. It may have helped to ask me where we are disagreeing.

Doesn’t my profession as a Carmelite suggest to you, a fellow Carmelite, that I am also called to and revere contemplation? I joined the order since 1981 — nearly 25 years, so I am not a novice to contemplative prayer.

I still fail to see how contemplation would be a norm at the sign of peace, which is what I tried to point out. Even the strict order of contemplative nuns in Carmel does not observe contemplation at the sign of peace. I do not think you heard me.

Please point out which part of my statement led you to believe I was “shouting” or being sarcastic. All I did was to quote Pope John Paul II on the contemplative dimensions of worship.

I may only now be joining the Carmelites, but I am no novice to contemplative prayer. I entered the realm of contemplative prayer over 25 years ago in a Franciscan convent which was non-contemplative. But, my novice mistress was a contemplative. I was introduced back then to the works of St. John of the Cross to which I gravitated strongly. It was after leaving due to illness and reintegrating into society that I drifted slowly from the practice and into a secular life, wrought with relativism and the like.

If you read my second post you will see that I do not believe in rejecting someone’s hand if it is extended to me. But you will also read that I feel charity is a two way street and we need to consider that some prefer to remain fully with the Lord during the Eucharistic Prayer and not turn to neighbor at that time.

It is for this reason that I believe we need more parishes that will offer the more reserved liturgy for those who feel called to it. I happen to prefer a liturgy where the priest opts out of the sign of peace. There is nothing wrong with this. Since only about 1 out of every 25 or 50 parishes (figuratively), ofpts out of the exchange, I think it would be nice if more started offering the alternate of not having the exchange for those who prefer it.

However, I strongly sense the Holy See will shift the sign of peace because in many parishes it has gotten out of control.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I should say that I found this somewhat terse myself, but did not feel the need to mention it until you felt I was shouting in my post quoting John Paul II.

Joysong:

Maybe you need to rethink this a bit, for I think you are overlooking the main purpose of liturgy. Will you accept and believe me that these nuns extend the appropriate gesture of peace and do not sit silently contemplating their God, wishing nobody would disturb them?

I guess I should ask you to explain what you feel the main purpose of the Litugy is? I am not asking this sarcastically. I simply want to understand what the purpose of the Liturgy is from your standpoint. This may be at the root of our disagreement on more than one thing.

Also, I’m not referring to meditation which is what “silently contemplating their God” seems to mean. Rather, I am talking about the kind of contemplation that is unitive, not just of those on either side of me, but unitive with all of mankind on earth, in heaven, as well as angelic. The Mass summons all of these and when the priest says “The Lord be with you” it is the mystical union, not the physical one, to which I aspire at that moment.

As I stated earlier, physical contact is not required for mystical union.

 

[Joysong]

I’m sorry, Diane, I had the feeling your over-emphasis with bolded and large print, was a sign of your irritation with me that prompted you to type in this manner. In the world of web correspondence, it is referred to as “shouting.”

Again, we are overlapping one another, yet I sense that we are coming into consensus and agreement, which please me to no end! As you know, it pains me to even think that I am at odds with another christian.

Carole

===========================

EEK! Another overlap. And I believe we would be way off topic to carry on a new discussion as you mentioned in the last post. Maybe P.M.'s or a new thread might be appropriate?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

Oops, sorry, I just noticed that we were posting simultaneously and I still had time to edit this post. I agree with you totally about respecting the desires of others who are not able to participate in the gesture of peace. I said as much previously. And it is true that some parishes get carried away to a more extended greeting than what is called for in the rite. So in the same vein, can we not respect their over-enthusiasm as a condition of their spiritual development, recognizing that is where they are, as much as those who are opposed to it?

Clearly catechesis from the pastor would be something needed to achieve a balance of sorts. But you know, Diane? I don’t think some would respect his teaching and still prefer to follow their own way. So where does that leave the rest of us ----- arguing about it?

Carole

I figured that much may have happened.

However, pastors have attempted to rein in the chaos at one parish I was at and it was futile. Anything short of shifting it to a different part and providing catechesis at that time, stating that people are to remain where they are and only exchange the sign with those on either side, would not work, imho. It is truly out of control.

But, the Holy See is always wise when it gradually makes changes. We seen how hurtful it was to so many people when the altar rails were dismantled, people were forced to stand and in some cases had receiving on the hand forced upon them (I personally know many to whom this happened).

It is charitable to bring about the changes gradually. My own pastor did not shift to the Latin Novus Ordo done at Assumption Grotto today overnight. It was very gradual over a 5 year period that he slowly introduced the changes. A little Latin was taking place monthly. The Latin grew to more parts weekly until years later the entire 9:30 liturgy except for the prayers of the faithful, readings/gospel and announcements. Then he switched to the ad orientem stance, and it turned into a beautiful Mass that many can attend who find it reserved and reverent. Those who prefer to deal with less Latin can go to any other Mass there, but they will still get the Gloria, Sanctus, Angus Dei, etc., in Latin - something the Holy See never stopped recommending, but is now being more vocal about. They also still get the ad orientem stance at the vernacular too, but this was never not an option for the priest. I never experienced it and find it so much more beautiful in the Mass, especially now that I understand why he faces east. Ahhhh, catechesis eliminates so many problems.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

We are fine Carole - good dialogue.

 

[maryj]

Oh how I remember with fondness the saturday afternoon coffee, and heated discussions about religion that took place at my mom and dads. My father had a sister who was a nun(osb) (or put another way my father had a sister who was a sister!!) they came from a large, loud family. I remember sitting at the feet of sister marjorie and listening to these “fights” oh what I learned during those discussions. I didn’t dare interject into them. I was allowed to stay in the room though!! pretty smart huh. Kinda reminds me of CA forums, our so called fights have others listening in that are not adding to the conversation but learning loads. Thank you all for teaching me!!! Peace be with you all.