Sign of Peace

[Joysong]

Dear MrS,

This should raise the eyebrows of ANY Catholic… but I must ask you if you approve of their action, and if you actually meant to say they were “allowed” to act as Eucharistic Ministers. I say act, because they are not and can never be Eucharistic Ministers.

I reply in the spirit of St. Therese, who kept her desires and wishes hidden so much that nobody was able to find out what foods she liked or disliked - instead, she gracefully accepted and partook of what was the common meal offered to her.

So you will not know my likes or dislikes for any of these controversial matters under discussion in the forum. I am merely going to state that I partake in thanksgiving to God, as we profess in the Eucharistic Prayer, “We thank You for counting us worthy to celebrate this Eucharist …” and then I direct my spirit to act in accord with what the Church proscribes and with what is the customary practice of that particular parish, so as to offend no one.

Carole

 

[Joysong]

Maryj,

You have a beautiful spirit! I have enjoyed reading your posts.

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

I reply in the spirit of St. Therese, who kept her desires and wishes hidden so much that nobody was able to find out what foods she liked or disliked - instead, she gracefully accepted and partook of what was the common meal offered to her.

So you will not know my likes or dislikes for any of these controversial matters under discussion in the forum. I am merely going to state that I partake in thanksgiving to God, as we profess in the Eucharistic Prayer, “We thank You for counting us worthy to celebrate this Eucharist …” and then I direct my spirit to act in accord with what the Church proscribes and with what is the customary practice of that particular parish, so as to offend no one.

Carole

Good Duck there!
Not very Kosher in discussion forums but a good Duck just the same!

 

[paramedicgirl]

Joysong:

I’m sorry, Diane, I had the feeling your over-emphasis with bolded and large print, was a sign of your irritation with me that prompted you to type in this manner. In the world of web correspondence, it is referred to as “shouting.”

Ladies, if I may say so, bold and coloured print helps others to identify which part of the post you are referring to. It is a tool, not an insult to highlight a sentence, paragraph or phrase this way!

 

[Joysong]

Ladies, if I may say so, bold and coloured print helps others to identify which part of the post you are referring to. It is a tool, not an insult to highlight a sentence, paragraph or phrase this way!

:ehh: … except when it is a totally new and separate response, rather than a tool of identification with regard to a previous sentence or paragraph. I use bolding, highlighting and colored print frequently, as do many other posters. It is invaluable, huh?

 

[paramedicgirl]

:ehh: … except when it is a totally new and separate response, rather than a tool of identification with regard to a previous sentence or paragraph. I use bolding, highlighting and colored print frequently, as do many other posters. It is invaluable, huh?

Actually, since I’m Canadian, I would say eh!

 

[netmilsmom]

:ehh: … except when it is a totally new and separate response, rather than a tool of identification with regard to a previous sentence or paragraph. I use bolding, highlighting and colored print frequently, as do many other posters. It is invaluable, huh?

If one cut and pastes from a website, many times the font will change and cannot be changed back. Sometimes, it is even a different color. You are Blessed that you are good at the Word Processing part of the site, some are not. And Lord knows sometimes it works against the poster!

 

[Joysong]

Hi Net,

Thanks for the reminder! That’s so very true! I can’t tell you how long it took me to begin a new thread this morning (the Rants) because I first copied it to Wordpad, and then tried to recopy it here. :banghead:

So many problems I was almost late for Mass.

 

[maryj]

Joysong, right back at cha!!! and just a short note, they removed the sign of peace today at my church, it’s the cold and flu season ya know!! But I did drink of the Precious Blood from the communal chalice, kinda seems a little silly to not touch hands… Peace

 

[Joysong]

Hi Maryj,

How very thoughtful of your priest! Did he announce it so you would know what was taking place? Is it just for winter or permanently? You are more brave than I am, for I usually do not take the Precious Blood during the winter months.

Have a beautiful Sunday!

Carole

 

[Orionthehunter]

Lux_et_veritas:

I guess I should ask you to explain what you feel the main purpose of the Litugy is? I am not asking this sarcastically. I simply want to understand what the purpose of the Liturgy is from your standpoint. This may be at the root of our disagreement on more than one thing.

Also, I’m not referring to meditation which is what “silently contemplating their God” seems to mean. Rather, I am talking about the kind of contemplation that is unitive, not just of those on either side of me, but unitive with all of mankind on earth, in heaven, as well as angelic. The Mass summons all of these and when the priest says “The Lord be with you” it is the mystical union, not the physical one, to which I aspire at that moment.

As I stated earlier, physical contact is not required for mystical union.

This is the quote to which he referred to above:

The object is to connect with God in a mystical way. When we do that, through His grace, we reach mystical union with everyone in heaven and on earth.

I think the bolded section above is the crux of the issue- Is Mass an individual personal devotion among many or a public communal celebration?

To answer the question, I’d like to ask some rhetorical questions based on Catholic theology:

1. When encountering a hungry person, are we to express our concern by the mystical act of praying or feed them/teach them to fish? When encountering a naked person, are we to pray for them or give them our coat?
2. Is it good enough for us to just take our sins to God or do we need a physical intermediary?
3. Are we angels (purely spirit creatures) or are we humans (spirit creatures with a physical component)?
4. Was it important the Christ took on human form instead of continuing as a spirit among us?
5. Is it critical that Christ come to us Body and Blood (in addition to His mystical components of Soul and Divinity) at the Mass?
6. Why do we have to physical consume the Blessed Sacrament to get all the graces verses just pray for a Spiritual Communion? Why do couples have to consummate physically the Sacrament of Matrimony? Along these lines, why do all the Sacraments require physical matter to be valid (ie water at Baptism, oil at Confirmation, externally verbalizing our sinfulness directly to another person at Confession)?

And now, I ask the same question regarding the Sign of Peace. Is it sufficent for us to just join “spiritually” with our fellow worshippers without a physical act of joining within the context of the Mass, the pinacle of Catholic worship?

 

[Joysong]

Dear Orion,

EXCELLENT POST!!!

Sorry for shouting, but I’m excited, can you tell?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Orionthehunter:

And now, I ask the same question regarding the Sign of Peace. Is it sufficent for us to just join “spiritually” with our fellow worshippers without a physical act of joining within the context of the Mass, the pinacle of Catholic worship?

Nothing wrong with it at all, if you discount the irreverence displayed towards Jesus who is physically present on the altar. I would like to see the sign of peace moved to the beginning of the Mass, since so many people use it as a means to say hello and catch up with each other. But we’ve been down that road in this thread already…

 

[Orionthehunter]

paramedicgirl:

Nothing wrong with it at all, if you discount the irreverence displayed towards Jesus who is physically present on the altar. I would like to see the sign of peace moved to the beginning of the Mass, since so many people use it as a means to say hello and catch up with each other. But we’ve been down that road in this thread already…

The improper execution of the Sign of Peace (as bolded above) is not justification for moving it but justification for better catechesis. Keep in mind in the Confiteor, we ask our fellow worshippers to forgive us of our venial sins. When we make the Sign of Peace in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament, we express that we accept their request for forgiveness. IMHO (and I believe the mind of the Church), the Sign of Peace and the physical expression (not just spiritual) is enhanced when done in the physical presence of Christ.

Regarding the abuse you talk about, in addtion to the Sign of Peace, our parish has begun to have moment to “stand and introduce yourself to those around you” prior to the entrance hymn. Maybe this solution is viable at your parish to enhance the theological meaning of hte Sign of Peace and address your concern by giving an opportunity to “get the greetings out of the way”.

 

[palmas85]

Orionthehunter:

This is the quote to which he referred to above:

I think the bolded section above is the crux of the issue- Is Mass an individual personal devotion among many or a public communal celebration?

To answer the question, I’d like to ask some rhetorical questions based on Catholic theology:

1. When encountering a hungry person, are we to express our concern by the mystical act of praying or feed them/teach them to fish? When encountering a naked person, are we to pray for them or give them our coat?
2. Is it good enough for us to just take our sins to God or do we need a physical intermediary?
3. Are we angels (purely spirit creatures) or are we humans (spirit creatures with a physical component)?
4. Was it important the Christ took on human form instead of continuing as a spirit among us?
5. Is it critical that Christ come to us Body and Blood (in addition to His mystical components of Soul and Divinity) at the Mass?
6. Why do we have to physical consume the Blessed Sacrament to get all the graces verses just pray for a Spiritual Communion? Why do couples have to consummate physically the Sacrament of Matrimony? Along these lines, why do all the Sacraments require physical matter to be valid (ie water at Baptism, oil at Confirmation, externally verbalizing our sinfulness directly to another person at Confession)?

And now, I ask the same question regarding the Sign of Peace. Is it sufficent for us to just join “spiritually” with our fellow worshippers without a physical act of joining within the context of the Mass, the pinacle of Catholic worship?

There is no sign of peace at the Traditional Latin Mass, so by your analogy that form of Mass does not reach the pinnacle of Catholic worship.

Otherwise a great post, really well thought out and beautiifully presented

 

[Orionthehunter]

palmas85:

There is no sign of peace at the Traditional Latin Mass, so by your analogy that form of Mass does not reach the pinnacle of Catholic worship.

Otherwise a great post, really well thought out and beautiifully presented

HMMMM. Maybe the Traditional Latin Mass isn’ t so Traditional.

In any case it is certain that in the early Middle Ages the kiss of peace was most intimately associated in idea with the reception of Communion (see Pseudo-Egbert, “Confessionale”, xxxv, in Wasserschleben, “Bussordnungen”, p. 315), and it seems probable that the omission of the Pax in Masses for the Dead was due to the fact that Communion was not distributed to the faithful at such Masses.

While said partly in jest, it shows that over time there are “innovations” that come and go.

 

[maryj]

Joysong:

Dear Orion,

EXCELLENT POST!!!

Sorry for shouting, but I’m excited, can you tell?

Ditto. thanks for the great post.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Orionthehunter:

The improper execution of the Sign of Peace (as bolded above) is not justification for moving it but justification for better catechesis. Keep in mind in the Confiteor, we ask our fellow worshippers to forgive us of our venial sins. When we make the Sign of Peace in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament, we express that we accept their request for forgiveness. IMHO (and I believe the mind of the Church), the Sign of Peace and the physical expression (not just spiritual) is enhanced when done in the physical presence of Christ.

Regarding the abuse you talk about, in addtion to the Sign of Peace, our parish has begun to have moment to “stand and introduce yourself to those around you” prior to the entrance hymn. Maybe this solution is viable at your parish to enhance the theological meaning of hte Sign of Peace and address your concern by giving an opportunity to “get the greetings out of the way”.

Well, we have a lot of strong-willed people, mostly women, at our parish who like to do things their way. When the priest instructs people in matters of the faith, he meets with so much resistance that he feels like giving up. I guess that’s why our priests don’t stay long. We have a pretty high turnover.

For example, and this is only one example of many, our priest told the first Communion class in his homily about the need for vocations. He told them they should discern if the Holy Spirit might be calling any of them to a religious vocation. He was verbally attacked in private after Mass by a CWL woman whose children were not even receiving First Communion.

This priest waited a whole year til the next First Communion class to rebut this woman in his next homily. My daughter had been in that other First Communion class, and I thanked Father for talking to them about religious vocations.

So you see, catechsis by the priest may not be well accepted by people like this. They just do whatever pleases them, and ruin a good thing like the sign of peace by imposing their way on everyone.

 

[Orionthehunter]

paramedicgirl:

Well, we have a lot of strong-willed people, mostly women, at our parish who like to do things their way. When the priest instructs people in matters of the faith, he meets with so much resistance that he feels like giving up. I guess that’s why our priests don’t stay long. We have a pretty high turnover.

For example, and this is only one example of many, our priest told the first Communion class in his homily about the need for vocations. He told them they should discern if the Holy Spirit might be calling any of them to a religious vocation. He was verbally attacked in private after Mass by a CWL woman whose children were not even receiving First Communion.

This priest waited a whole year til the next First Communion class to rebut this woman in his next homily. My daughter had been in that other First Communion class, and I thanked Father for talking to them about religious vocations.

So you see, catechsis by the priest may not be well accepted by people like this. They just do whatever pleases them, and ruin a good thing like the sign of peace by imposing their way on everyone.

The Church is the guardian of the Truth and can’t change to accommodate the mood of the people. Just like how bad laws are passed in reaction to the extreme, ill-advised reaction to the lowest common denominator is not the answer. With good catechesis and the patience of Job (as your good Priest seems to have done), we must trust that the Holy Spirit will do its work with the preponderance of the parish. This will ultimately thru peer pressure convert the hard of heart.

 

[maryj]

Joysong:

Hi Maryj,

How very thoughtful of your priest! Did he announce it so you would know what was taking place? Is it just for winter or permanently? You are more brave than I am, for I usually do not take the Precious Blood during the winter months.

Have a beautiful Sunday!

Carole

Every year during the cold and flu season the sign of peace is suspended(not the words just the action) we usually start again on Easter, which is so momentous since we get to proclaim alleluia again the same day. Brave? No, just really feel the need!!

Peace, Mary Joseph (yup! named after two of the three)