Sign of the cross and bowing

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firemnbob

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During mass a couple of months ago, I noticed a gentleman bowing and giving either a sign of the cross or thumping his chest during certain parts of the mass. Does anyone know what this is a sign of, and where it comes from, and what they are actually keying on? It seemed to be some sort of reverent gesture, but I am not sure. Thanks
 
We all should bow at the words of the Incarnation in the Creed. Many people bow at the name of Jesus. Some make the sign of the cross during the penetential rite.
 
It used to be standard practice to strike one’s breast at the confiteor (particularly, at the words ‘through my own fault’), indulgentiam (May Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, etc) and at “domine, non sum dignis” (Lord, I am not worthy to receive Thee, etc). None of this was abrogated by the GIRM and it should still be the practice of people -especially the priest and servers- today.

In addition, it is fitting and proper to make a full bow at the Gloria Patri after the Introit and make a slight bow whenever name of Jesus is said/sung during the Gloria. Just some thoughts from a Latin P.O.D. person. lol 😃
 
I’ll address the chest-thumping. 😉

In olden times (40 years ago or so) it was customary to beat one’s breast three times during the Confiteor when one said the words, “through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.” That’s now been shortened to “through my own fault,” but some people still make this gesture. The other time this happens is at the Agnus Dei, as we ask for God’s mercy. It’s a sign of our sinfulness and need for God’s mercy. Hope this helps.

Betsy
 
The gesture of bowing and making the Sign of the Cross, is mostly apparent in the Eastern Catholic Churches.
As an Eastern Catholic, we have certain parts of our Liturgy where we do bow and make the Sign of the Cross. These times are in repentance and ask for God’s Mercy on us.

You probably were watching an Eastern Catholic visiting a Roman Church. It is not uncommon if the person do not know where an Eastern Church is located.
When I am at my brother’s church I will bow and make the Sign of the Cross the was I was learned.

Go with God!
Edwin
 
I am starting to wish the moderators would make 3 liturgical sections - one for N.O., one for Eastern Rite, and one for TLM - how confusing all this must be for nonCatholics visiting the forums:)
 
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deogratias:
I am starting to wish the moderators would make 3 liturgical sections - one for N.O., one for Eastern Rite, and one for TLM - how confusing all this must be for nonCatholics visiting the forums:)
I’m inclined to agree. It’s especially the bickering and the “we are holier than you lot” attitude that isn’t a good example, or helpful, to would-be converts.🙂

A Te numquam separari permittas - never let me be separated from You
 
It was traditional to strike ones breast when the priest would lift the Body of Jesus and again when the Blood was raised. At this time, one would say to themselves my Lord and my God. My husband and I still do this.
 
Ann Cheryl:
It was traditional to strike ones breast when the priest would lift the Body of Jesus and again when the Blood was raised. At this time, one would say to themselves my Lord and my God. My husband and I still do this.
Ooo that’s right! I’d been neglecting that one. Usually since I’m not constrained by a pew I try to make a full prostration at that point during the Mass. Yeah, people think I’m cooky but hey, I’ve got the space to do it and it’s what the servers and choir used to do at the Chant Mass at Gonzaga. I’ll remember that for when I’m in the pew next time.
 
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deogratias:
I am starting to wish the moderators would make 3 liturgical sections - one for N.O., one for Eastern Rite, and one for TLM - how confusing all this must be for nonCatholics visiting the forums
I mean no offense, but I don’t believe this would be a good idea at all. Our Holy Father has mandated that we, as Catholic faithful, take whatever steps necessary to educate ourselves with regard to the kalideascope of riches inherent in the multitude of Churches, rites and traditions that make up our Holy Mother Church. As a Church, we are unique in our diversity - a diversity that we need to celebrate! To “pigeonhole” the various rites and traditions, each one just as Catholic as the next, would be a huge disservice to the Holy Father’s desire for understanding and appreciation of Catholicism in all it many forms.

Out of common respect for each other, I believe that when we post a thread topic, we must expect it to be answered by any forum member out there, within the context of his or her own Church experience. Sometimes these answers may be very different from what we would anticipate, but THAT, my friends, is what being Catholic is all about. I personally have learned MUCH about my fellow Catholics of differing traditions since I’ve been participating here. This is, in large part, information I would not have learned had my exposure to this forum been limited by the “pigeonholes” mentioned earlier (I know this is the case - I’ve participated in other forums that are “pigeonholed,” and found them to be very limiting, even to the point of reinforcing a sort of “ghetto mentality,” especially with regard to the smaller Churches… truthfully, it’s sort of feels like “We’ll just put these guys over there where they won’t bother the rest of us.” I’d hate to see that happen here.

I further support my claim by referring to the last line of the quote above… it’s confusing enough for the Catholics who visit this forum, not to mention the* non-Catholics!* But the simple fact is WE ARE A CHURCH OF MUCH DIVERSITY - WE CANNOT PRETEND THAT WE ARE NOT! To separate this forum by Churches and rites would only leave the non-Catholics wondering, “Hmmmm… I wonder which ones are the real Catholics?” How will they accept the “oneness” of our Church despite its diversity, if we don’t accept it ourselves?

What a marvelous opportunity we have here to live out our Holy Father’s mandate to learn from and about each other! Let’s not ruin it by building more “walls” within our Church. We’ve lived with just these sorts of walls for hundreds of years, and are just now beginning to see them crumble, little by little. PLEASE - let them fall!

a pilgrim
 
I agree with Pilgram. I was going to explain the the theology of the bow. Then I read the same statement that Pilgram referred to, “I wish they would make 3 sections”. MY HEART SANK! I realized that there is not a willingness to share the faith of others in the Catholic Church. Since I am a convert from the Southern Baptist, I understand perfectly what Pilgram is saying. Very sad indeed.

Pani Rose
 
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Edwin1961:
You probably were watching an Eastern Catholic visiting a Roman Church.
Edwin
Possibly, but not necessarily. Many of us westerners also do so. While I must admit that I am in the minority in my parish, there are quite a few of us who also bow, strike our breasts, and make the Sign of the Cross at different times during the Mass. Most of these have already been mentioned in this thread (the Name of Jesus in the Gloria, the confietor (yes, we do say it, even at daily Mass here), the incarnation in the creed, the three small crosses before reading the Gospel, and either a bow or the Sign of the Cross at Communion. (just to name the ones I can remember off the top of my head.)

John
 
By the time I’m done, I’m very much concerned that I’m going to be unwelcome in my own community - but, here goes …

Pilgrim, Rose, and Edwin,

I think we of the East are starting to look as if we have an inferiority complex. Bear with me …

The comments
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Deogratias:
I am starting to wish the moderators would make 3 liturgical sections - one for N.O., one for Eastern Rite, and one for TLM
and
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ATeNumquam:
I’m inclined to agree. It’s especially the bickering and the “we are holier than you lot” attitude that isn’t a good example, or helpful, to would-be converts.
reflected an exasperation that I think was understandable, if you look at what prompted them
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Edwin1961:
The gesture of bowing and making the Sign of the Cross, is mostly apparent in the Eastern Catholic Churches. …

You probably were watching an Eastern Catholic visiting a Roman Church. …
Edwin’s post was presumptuous to put it mildly, though I believe that was unintentional. It suggested that reverential posture is more apparent to, more native to, more apt to be encountered in our churches, as opposed to those of our Latin brothers and sisters.

(continued)
 
I agree with Dr. Cat when he says:
Many of us westerners also do so. While I must admit that I am in the minority in my parish, there are quite a few of us who also bow, strike our breasts, and make the Sign of the Cross at different times during the Mass.
It has been almost 4 decades since I transfered from the Latin Church of my birth to my beloved Melkite Church. Were I still a Latin communicant, I suspect that I would be striking my breast, bowing my head, and crossing myself at all those points in the Mass that Nerd referenced.
a pilgrim:
Out of common respect for each other, I believe that when we post a thread topic, we must expect it to be answered by any forum member out there, within the context of his or her own Church experience. …
Not so, Pilgrim. Bob’s original post gave no indication that Edwin or anyone else could or should have keyed on as suggesting that he observed this behavior in anyplace other than a Latin Church environment.

A couple of days ago, I started a thread in which I said:
Irish Melkite:
in An Apology To My Latin Brothers & Sisters

This forum is titled “Catholic Answers” - not Latin or Roman, but “Catholic”. On that basis, it can be argued that it is as much a venue for those of the Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris as it is for our Latin brothers and sisters. But, in truth, this forum is intended primarily to address, discuss, and teach Catholicism in terms of Western theological understanding, liturgical practice, and spirituality.

Charges have been made that there is an anti-Eastern bias present on this forum; I have listened to that claim and carefully observed whether there is any truth to it, since I have had to spend much time during the past four decades explaining and assuring my Catholicity and that of my Church to my brother and sister Latin Catholics. To date, I have seen misconceptions, honest ignorance, and genuine curiousity about the East on the part of posters here; I have observed that forum staff’s demonstrated levels of knowledge and interest regarding the East appear to only be superficial; but, I have observed nothing that would suggest an anti-Eastern basis.

That said, we, as Eastern Catholics, have been allowed to enter as guests into a forum that is primarily intended to provide a place for discussion by our brothers and sisters of the Latin Church with one another and those who come here to inquire of and debate matters of Catholicity. We have posted without interference on matters related to Eastern Catholicity and replied to those who have inquired about our Churches and their place in the Communion of Churches which together comprise the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
While I agree that
a pilgrim:
Our Holy Father has mandated that we, as Catholic faithful, take whatever steps necessary to educate ourselves with regard to the kalideascope of riches inherent in the multitude of Churches, rites and traditions that make up our Holy Mother Church. …
there is a time and a place to do so. At our own

Byzantine Forum

we don’t typically expect our Latin members to indiscriminately interject discussion of their rubrics and ritual into queries posted about our liturgical practices. Nor should we expect to do so here. There are plenty of opportunities available here and in our own forum to educate our Latin brothers and sisters; there are questions asked of and directed toward us; you sometimes have to look to find them, but they are there. There is neither need, necessity, nor right to interject Eastern Catholicity into every thread that is begun. Doing so will, as Deogratias said, only serve to confuse non-Catholics here, as well as those Catholics who are here trying to reconnect with their lost or forgotten faith.

Many years,

Neil
 
I myself do bow during the Elevations and during the Creed. As to mixing the answers between Easter and Western practices. I do sometimes find it confusing and wouls suspect a non-Catholic visiting would. Maybe we could start off questions with: According to the Roman Rite…? or According to the Melkite Church…? at least in this Liturgy fourm?
 
I find that many here begin their posts by explaining what rite they observe. That should clear up most confusion. I’m glad to see such diversity on these forums, and hope you all feel welcome.

I attend the Novus Ordo, and I do bow, make the sign of the cross, and strike my breast at the appropriate times during the Mass.
  • A bow shows deep reverence.
  • Striking of the breast is a gesture found in the Scriptures by the penitent, declaring his unworthiness and sinfulness. “Be merciful to me, Oh, God, a sinner.”
  • Making the** sign** of the cross is a prayerful gesture as well as a blessing.
We begin the Novus Ordo Mass with a Sign of the Cross.

Then, begins the penitential rite. During this time, we ask the Lord’s mercy. I three times gently strike my breast during this prayer imploring Christ’s mercy and acknowledging my sinfulness before Him. (Depending upon which prayer is used, I would do this as we say, “Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy;” or …*“I have sinned through my own fault…In my thoughts, in my words, In what I have done, and what I have failed to do…” *These words are admissions of sin, asking God’s mercy, and the penitential gesture is to strike one’s breast three times.

Just before the priest or deacon reads the Gospel, we are to make three tiny crosses: one on our forehead, one on our lips, and one over our heart. May our minds and hearts be open to the Word of God, and may we fearlessly proclaim Him to others!

When we pray the Creed, there is a phrase indicating that Jesus came down from heaven and became man. At this point, all are supposed to bow. Not only is it found in the rubrics described in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, but it’s also in our missalettes, if we’re following along, reading that prayer! I bow deeply from the waist at this point of the Creed, honoring Our Lord’s incarnation. We show deep reverence for this awesome condescension, that God would become Man!

When the bread and wine are consecrated into the Body and Blood of Our Lord, and when these Sacred Species are elevated for a moment of adoration, I bow my head and shoulders and strike my breast also, acknowledging so Great a Sacrament, and my unworthiness, uttering silently words of gratitude, adoration, and supplication.

The rubrics say to bow in the Communion line before receiving (in the dioceses of the United States). I kneel to receive, as this posture has been approved by Rome as acceptable for Americans. In fact, being a bit of a rebel, I’ve pretty much always knelt for Communion, except when I was pregnant for twins, and logistically speaking, just couldn’t do it. 😉

At the end of Mass, there is a final blessing, “May Almighty God bless you in the name of the Father…” At this, we all make the sign of the cross also.

Other gestures include genuflecting before entering and upon exiting your pew. We genuflect to the tabernacle, where the Blessed Sacrament is reposed. We also are to bow to the altar if passing it for some reason during the Mass.

I find it very interesting indeed to watch a well-trained server’s as well as a consciencious celebrant’s gestures! These add greatly to the Mass. Our own gestures add to our participation in each liturgical function.

I hope my simplifying things helps. (Sorry if I left out any gestures, I was just shooting them from the top of my head.)

Pax Christi. <><
 
Neil,

One of the things I find fascinating about forums such as this one is that you can often find individuals who share your philosophy on a given topic while at the same time differing in the viewpoints through which that philosophy is expressed. I believe this thread illustrates a textbook example of what I’m saying.

We both share an obvious concern with the perception that our Eastern Catholic Churches take on, especially in the eyes of our Latin brethren. I read your apology and agree wholeheartedly with the philosophy behind it. I do, however, disagree with some of the individual points you make therein as well as some of those you’ve made in this thread:
I think we of the East are starting to look as if we have an inferiority complex…
I disagree. I think many, if not most, of the Easterners who frequent this forum feel anything but inferior with regard to their faith and theology. I see a strong sense of pride and personal satisfaction with their faith and theology in most of the posts that come from Easterners. My belief is that this comes from a true desire to share and to educate. Now, if some forum members choose to interpret this as a “holier than you” attitude, I’m saddened, but not overly concerned… I can’t afford to be! We’ve been given a mandate by our Holy Father to acquaint ourselves with all of the riches that comprise our Catholic Church, East and West. This forum, for me, has been a magnificent medium through which to both learn and (hopefully!) to educate. I’ve been given a mission to continue doing both - as have all Catholics!

(continued)
 
Edwin’s post was presumptuous to put it mildly…
I don’t think this was the case at all. Edwin was responding to a specific issue involving liturgical actions that he, rightfully so, pointed out are much more prevalent in the worship practices of the East than they are in the West. His response was one of many responses, but it was the only one given from the Eastern perspective. Seen through his eyes, his response was just as accurate as those given by the Westerners who responded.
It suggested that reverential posture is more apparent to, more native to, more apt to be encountered in our churches, as opposed to those of our Latin brothers and sisters.
This may not be “PC” on my part and I know I’ll certainly take my flames for saying it, but IT IS! Believe me, I’m not being judgmental, nor am I assigning any inherent “goodness” to visible acts of reverence - I’m merely stating an observed fact. The Eastern Divine Liturgy quite simply offers many more opportunities for outward expressions of reverence (i.e. bows and signs of the cross) than the Western counterpart, either Novus Ordo or Tridentine. For an Eastern Catholic to assume that an individual who exhibits these outward signs while attending a Latin Rite Mass is “…probably…an Eastern Catholic visiting a Roman Church…” is, in my opinion, by no means presumptuous. It was a valid answer to the question asked - one of many possible valid answers.

Let me add that for the past decade or so upwards of 90% of my personal worship has taken place within the context of the Latin Rite. I’ve experienced both liturgical traditions - having done so, I cannot ignore the fact that reverences as specified and asked about in the original question are, indeed, more prevalent in the East. Now, it would be ludicrous to believe that this fact makes the East inherently “holier” than the West or any such nonsense… but the question in this thread wasn’t about “holiness” - it was about outward acts of reverence. Some forum members obviously interpreted Edwin’s response as an attempt to equate the acts in question with the “holiness” of the liturgical tradition. Sadly, I think your own response may have added to that perception (although I’m glad you added the statement that you believed it to be unintentional! 🙂 ).

(continued)
 
I said:
Out of common respect for each other, I believe that when we post a thread topic, we must expect it to be answered by any forum member out there, within the context of his or her own Church experience. …
You said:
Not so, Pilgrim. Bob’s original post gave no indication that Edwin or anyone else could or should have keyed on as suggesting that he observed this behavior in anyplace other than a Latin Church environment.
Even if it were a Latin Church environment, there’s nothing to preclude Edwin’s scenario of an Eastern Catholic in attendance as a possibility. To stifle a logical potential answer to the question out of fear of possibly confusing non-Catholics, as was pointed out as one of the true issues here, is, in my opinion, just plain wrong. We are a Church of many facets. To pretend that we’re not just to present an “easy-to-accept” facade for the sake of potential converts does them, and us, a great disservice. What happens when they do convert and only then find out that their Catholic Church is much more than they were led to believe? What about those converts who would say, “Wow, why didn’t anyone tell me about these other traditions and forms of Catholicism before I converted?” I’ve seen this very thing on other forums - I trust you have, too.

Perhaps where our opinions differ greatest, however, is here:
…in truth, this forum is intended primarily to address, discuss, and teach Catholicism in terms of Western theological understanding, liturgical practice, and spirituality.
…and here:
…we, as Eastern Catholics, have been allowed to enter as guests into a forum that is primarily intended to provide a place for discussion by our brothers and sisters of the Latin Church with one another and those who come here to inquire of and debate matters of Catholicity.
…and especially here:
…there is a time and a place to do so. At our own
The fact that a vast, VAST majority of the Catholics who post here are Latin does not make this an exclusive club, limited in membership to Latin “members” and their “guests.” It does, however, paint a pretty accurate picture of the real world with regard to the disproportionate distribution of our Church membership - a disproportionate distribution, I might add, that our Holy Father has expressed concern over and has taken steps to alleviate. Should we here at this forum do any less?

I understand fully and share your concern with regard to Eastern Catholicism being interjected into inappropriate threads - perhaps I’m missing something here but I just don’t see this as an abuse that manifests itself with enough regularity to relegate Eastern Catholics to eggshell-treading “guests,” fearing that we may offend our “hosts.” In fact, I think this flies directly in the face of our Holy Father’s intent when he speaks of all Catholics acquainting themselves with “both lungs” of our Church. Are we also to think of ourselves as “guests” within the Catholic Church itself?

(continued)
 
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