Sign of the cross and bowing

[a_pilgrim]

Our Byzantine Forum that you mentioned is a wonderful resource for all things Eastern! But the fact is this: few Westerners will even bother to visit the site. Karl Keating responded to one of my posts by saying that it appeared the Eastern Catholics were expecting some sort of “affirmative action” with regard to their position here. Although I believe that to be a rather strong statement, I would not disagree with the concept of “affirmative education.” Fact is, most Latin Catholics know very little about Eastern Catholicism, and vice versa. What a marvelous opportunity to fix that situation this forum presents!

To my knowledge, this forum was never meant to be a “Latins Only” venue, as your responses would imply. If I’m wrong in that, I’ll humbly step down and stand corrected… but until someone officially says that Eastern Catholics are not as welcome here as Western Catholics, I think it’s wrong for any of us to make that assumption. This forum is probably the largest regular gathering of Catholics anywhere in the world (well… maybe just beneath Wednesday Night Bingo at St. Bernard’s! ). THIS is where the education that is so sadly needed within our Church, in “both lungs,” needs to occur! I made an earlier reference to my belief that the “pigeonholing” of Churches within forums such as this serves no one and, in fact, even reinforces the “ghetto mentality” that a number of our Churches are working very hard to overcome. I’ve seen this happen at other forums - I’m sure that you have, too. That’s what makes this forum special! I’d like to believe that we can all continue to get together here and share our theology, traditions and viewpoints without the need to apologize for our being here or feel as though we’re invading another’s turf!.

BTW, Neil - your apparently-limitless knowledge of all things Catholic never ceases to amaze me! You’ve been a true “lighthouse” to me and, I’m sure, many others at this forum and at others. It is a true joy to have the opportunity to interact on a regular basis with one as knowledgable and respected as you (not to mention the countless times you’ve stepped in and “bailed me out” when I needed it! ). Thank you for so freely sharing yourself with us, my friend!

a pilgrim

 

[asquared]

Perhaps it is time we stopped looking around to catch our fellow communicants in some improper or inexplicable action and tended to focusing our attention on the mysteries of the altar. In charity, can’t we just assume that anyone we observe at Mass is using motions, attitudes, postures they have been taught in good faith with reverence and make room for all in our universal church.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

a pilgrim:

We both share an obvious concern with the perception that our Eastern Catholic Churches take on, especially in the eyes of our Latin brethren. I read your apology and agree wholeheartedly with the philosophy behind it. I do, however, disagree with some of the individual points you make therein as well as some of those you’ve made in this thread:

Irish Melkite:

I think we of the East are starting to look as if we have an inferiority complex

Pilgrim, my brother,

I probably should have been clearer on that point. I was referring to the dismay I saw in the post by our sister, Rose (below). As we both know, it’s not like Rose to be down-hearted and I wanted to point out to her that I didn’t perceive the posts by a few Latin posters (on which you had previously commented) as being so much anti-Eastern as they were a reaction to having Eastern Catholicism interjected into a thread that they saw (and I agreed) as focused on a practice in a Latin church.
Pani Rose:

I agree with Pilgram. I was going to explain the the theology of the bow. Then I read the same statement that Pilgram referred to, “I wish they would make 3 sections”. MY HEART SANK! I realized that there is not a willingness to share the faith of others in the Catholic Church. Since I am a convert from the Southern Baptist, I understand perfectly what Pilgram is saying. Very sad indeed.

We will have to disagree, my brother, on the issue of whether our status here is one of “guest” or not. I do stand by my contention, as voiced by the Admin at our home forum to Latin posters, on any number of occasions:

At our own Byzantine Forum (got to put the link there - maybe someone will want to come visit us ) we don’t typically expect our Latin members to indiscriminately interject discussion of their rubrics and ritual into queries posted about our liturgical practices.

From that, I draw the corollary:

Nor should we expect to do so here. There are plenty of opportunities available here and in our own forum to educate our Latin brothers and sisters; there are questions asked of and directed toward us; you sometimes have to look to find them, but they are there. There is neither need, necessity, nor right to interject Eastern Catholicity into every thread that is begun.

Finally, thank you for the kind words, my friend. I have been most impressed with your own posts - including the multi-part one to which I’m responding here. Even though I disagree with you on certain parts of it, I think your points were well-made and argued and you’d have gotten “rep” from me, except it says I’ve given it to you too recently to do it yet again .

Many years,

Neil

 

[headman13]

I encourage my folks to make the Sign of the Cross a LOT. The Devil hates it, it’s a good weapon against him. The Sign of the Cross is a precious sacramental, recalling our holy baptism and in the Liturgy is a way of including ourselves in the action, a way of saying “This means ME, this is talking about ME”. The traditional places [pre vatican II] in the Liturgy to make the Sign of the Cross include but are not limited to:

1. the Opening of the Service, “in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit” [this is the Holy Name in which I also was baptized]
2. At the conclusion of the Gloria in Excelsis Deo, “in the Glory of God the Father Almighty” *
3. at the announcing of the Gospel [forehead, lips, heart, “write these words on my mind, my lips, my heart”]
4. in the Creed at “I believe in the Resurrection of the Flesh” *
5. during the “Holy Holy Holy” at “Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord” [He comes to ME too]
6. during the Consecration Prayer, at the prayer for the Holy Spirit [send the Holy Spirit upon ME too]
7. Before receiving the Body and Precious Blood
   [His Body and Blood are given for Me]
8. at the Final Blessing, also appropriating the blessing

I’ve found it a wonderful way to involve people physically in worship, together with standing, sitting, kneeling, bowing.

Speaking of kneeling, do you still follow the directive of the First Council of Nicaea in AD 325 to pray and receive Communion only standing during the Season of Easter? I like that, but have had a time convincing the folks. Like all things, it’s an educational process.**

 

[firemnbob]

I originally posted this question because of confusion of seeing a member of my parish, N.O. mass, do make the sign of the cross and bow in certain parts of the Creed, among other times. It seems to me there are some disagreements between the eastern and western Rite groups here. I hope that we can put aside our squables and truly desire to grow and learn in our faith, following our Holy Father’s desire to bring each other together, in accord with the Church’s teachings and laws. May the Lord enlarge all of your territories and allow us to grow within them.

 

[Fergal]

What about the “AGNUS DEI QUI TOLIS PECATTA MUNDI, MISERERE NOBIS”, (Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us)??? :crying:
Here, we should strike our breast at eachof the mentions of the “Agnus Dei” I do always.
Actually I am an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion and alwasy only the only one to do it as we approach the Altar. I sincerely mean it as a sign that I recognise my own unworthiness and also I have to confess I hope dearly that it may set an example.

Can I ask also those of you who are also extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion a question??
When you receive the Host and precious Blood do you make the sign of the Cross on yourself at each reception? I am the only one who does it every time again because I realise within the confines of my own human understanding what I am receiving and again to set an example.

Let me know if you do it if you are an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion.

God Bless,
Fergal
Naas
Ireland

 

[deogratias]

Fergal, do

EMHC’s in Ireland receive in the hand or on the tongue. It does not seem that EMHC’s ever receive on the tongue here in the U.S. but many of the congregation do.

 

[Fergal]

hi deogratias.

In Ireland it is a matter of personal preference. I always receive on my tongue again hopefully setting an example. I have noticed that a few more of our EMHC’s have started to receive on the tongue also.
Funny for us EMHCs though as we handle the Host anyway in distribution!!!

I never cease to be amazed at the large number of my parishoners who continue to receive on the tongue. I genuinly feel it is making a slow comeback.

The Holy Spirit is active!!

Blessings,
Fergal

 

[Fergal]

Here, its a matter of personal preference. I always receive on my tongue though hopefully setting an example. What upsets me more is the lack of signing themselves with the Cross when the have received.

I am amazed at the large numbers of my parishoners who continue to receive on the tongue. I feel their numbers are slowly increasing.

Blessings,
Ferga;

 

[Fergal]

Here, its a matter of personal preference. I always receive on my tongue though hopefully setting an example. What upsets me more is the lack of signing themselves with the Cross when the have received.

I am amazed at the large numbers of my parishoners who continue to receive on the tongue. I feel their numbers are slowly increasing.

Blessings,
Fergal

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Fergal,

This has nothing to do with the thread, but seeing your locale brought back to me fond recollections of a stay in Naas, almost 30 years ago, at a B&B, the home of a family named Heneghan. Thanks for the memory.

Many years,

Neil