Significance of Latin in traditional Catholicism?

[malphono]

What does the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed say in the original Greek? Keep in mind that the Latin Creed itself is a translation. The Creed was originally written in Greek at the Council of Nicaea I and finalized at the Council of Constantinople I.

The Niceo-Constantinopolitan Creed doesn’t contain the reference to “hell” so the Greek doesn’t matter. It’s the Apostle’s Creed, which I believe was an original Latin composition.

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae, et in Iesum Christum, Filium Eius unicum, Dominum nostrum, qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine, passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus, descendit ad ínferos, tertia die resurrexit a mortuis, ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Patris omnipotentis, inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos. Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem, remissionem peccatorum, carnis resurrectionem, vitam aeternam.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Re: Significance of Latin in traditional Catholicism?

---

Mal: Purgatory is a form of Hell but for purification.

Phillip Writes : This idea is questionable and doesn’t really represent Catholic Tradition.

Mal: It represents St Thomas Aquinas View of Purgatory

Entirely:

newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm

Specifically:

I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church.

Some say, however, that according to the common law the place of Purgatory is where man sins. This does not seem probable, since a man may be punished at the same time for sins committed in various places. And others say that according to the common law they are punished above us, because they are between us and God, as regards their state. But this is of no account, for they are not punished for being above us, but for that which is lowest in them, namely sin.

Note how St Thomas is of the opinion that it is the SAME FIRE which torments the damned and cleanses the just in Purgatory. So to clarify my statement - the form of Hell is FIRE and it is the same fire as Hell Fire. The Summa is most certainly Catholic.

Pax

This is simply the theological opinion of St. Thomas and doesn’t necessarily reflect the Catholic (i.e. Universal/whole/complete) Tradition. Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics have a completely different concept of purgatory that doesn’t make it into a “temporary Hell.”

I agree that the Summa is most certainly Catholic. But it only represents one portion of Catholic Tradition and is certainly not “infallible.” Quoting the Summa to an Eastern Christian (Catholic or Orthodox) carries about as much weight as an Eastern Christian quoting St. Gregory Palamas has for a Roman Catholic. We all agree that there is some form of “purgation” in the afterlife. What we don’t agree on is what the purgation consists of.

 

[Malleus_01]

<<< This is simply the theological opinion of St. Thomas and doesn’t necessarily reflect the Catholic (i.e. Universal/whole/complete) Tradition. Eastern (Byzantine) Catholics have a completely different concept of purgatory that doesn’t make it into a “temporary Hell.”>>>>

Mal : He is hardly the only one :

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

“All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich…Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. ‘Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.’ Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand ‘the prison’ pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret ‘the uttermost farthing’ to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides.” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

“The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame.” Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).

Mal: Notice how he says the SAME DIVINE FIRE? I could post several others.

<<< I agree that the Summa is most certainly Catholic. But it only represents one portion of Catholic Tradition and is certainly not “infallible.” Quoting the Summa to an Eastern Christian (Catholic or Orthodox) carries about as much weight as an Eastern Christian quoting St. Gregory Palamas has for a Roman Catholic. We all agree that there is some form of “purgation” in the afterlife. What we don’t agree on is what the purgation consists of. >>>>

Mal: How many do you want.

 

[ProVobis]

In regards to the the Apostles Creed "He descended into Hell " There is nothing wrong with that English Translation.

I guess it depends on how you define “Hell.” In its context, as part of the Creed where we believe in some real Catholic doctrine, however, I think we can both agree that there could have been a better translation of the word “infernos.” Christ certainly didn’t encounter punishments for bad deeds which seems to be the English (or even Latin) implications.

In fact - it is scriptural.

There is no English word in scripture. You’re missing the point of this entire thread.

 

[Malleus_01]

<<<I guess it depends on how you define “Hell.” In its context, as part of the Creed where we believe in some real Catholic doctrine, however, I think we can both agree that there could have been a better translation of the word “infernos.” Christ certainly didn’t encounter punishments for bad deeds which seems to be the English (or even Latin) implications. >>>>

Mal: Well Jesus never committed a Sin. Being GOD and Begotten not made He was never guilty of Original Sin. When we say that Jesus Descended into Hell - we are not saying that Jesus was condemned to Hell. Mankind was condemned to Hell by Original Sin. Not only actual Mortal sins . And if not for the Cross - all of mankind would be destined for Hell. when Jesus triumphed over Sin by shedding his Blood on the wood of the Holy Cross He then Triumphed over that Condemnation - He descended into Hell having likewise triumphed over Original Sin as well as Actual Sin because mankind likewise was released by the Cross from its condemnation. Jesus freed from Hell all of mankind. You are the one assuming the reason Jesus descended into Hell or in denial that he did. Jesus is LORD over Heaven Purgatory and Hell. They cannot contain him - he is GOD. He can go whereever he wants to go. He is GOD.

There is no English word in scripture. You’re missing the point of this entire thread.

Mal: The TRUTH conveyed by the Word of GOD is not confined by any language. For that reason do we have numerous languages by which Scripture is dicerned and the Holy Ghost and Magisterium and Deposit of Faith - the lawful authority of which can best determine how to teach that Truth. Language itself is secondary. All men do not speak the same language and yet the truths of GOD are conveyed nevertheless are they not?

Pax

 

[ProVobis]

Jesus freed from Hell all of mankind.

Now this is more plausible. But could a 7-yr old arrive at that conclusion by himself by reading the English?

The TRUTH conveyed by the Word of GOD is not confined by any language.

From Veterum Sapientia:

Modern languages are liable to change, and no single one of them is superior to the others in authority. Thus if the truths of the Catholic Church were entrusted to an unspecified number of them, the meaning of these truths, varied as they are, would not be manifested to everyone with sufficient clarity and precision. There would, moreover, be no language which could serve as a common and constant norm by which to gauge the exact meaning of other renderings.

But Latin is indeed such a language. It is set and unchanging. it has long since ceased to be affected by those alterations in the meaning of words which are the normal result of daily, popular use.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I tried to post one last comment on the whole purgatory issue earlier this morning, but my computer bummed out on me.

As far as “the fires of purgatory” being related in some way to the fires of hell, here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say.

1031 – The Church gives the name “Purgatory” to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned."

Paragraphs 1030 - 1032 are really worth looking at. I love what the CCC has to say because it leaves enough room for both a Roman/Latin and an Eastern understanding. In the East (at least the Byzantine East) we don’t think of purgatory so much along the lines of punishment for “non-mortal” sins. We think of purgatory more along the lines of a continued theosis after death, where we are purged from whatever earthly attachment that we may have brought with us to death. This purgation, for us, isn’t a punishment any more than our purgation in this life is a punishment. If we are to fully participate in the life of God, then we must “lay aside all earthly cares.”

So essentially East and West believes the same thing; i.e. there is some form of purification in the next life. Where we differ is in our understanding of what that purification entails.

Okay, no more from me.

ICXC + NIKA,
Phillip

 

[Malleus_01]

<<<< Now this is more plausible. But could a 7-yr old arrive at that conclusion by himself by reading the English? >>>>>.

Mal: If your question pertains to the need for the lawful teaching authority being needed - then of course no - the 7 year old cannot ascertain truth without his coorperation with the Grace GOD - the reception of the Sacraments - prayer - and living the Catholic faith thus obtaining the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost. Sends him by the Grace of GOD in conjunction with the Instruction he gets from the ONE True Church - but if he only speaks Spanish - is that Truth diminished because it is given him in Spanish? You tell me. Does GOD’s Grace and the Gifts of the Holy Ghost come in the form of language?

<<< As far as “the fires of purgatory” being related in some way to the fires of hell, here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say.

1031 – The Church gives the name “Purgatory” to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." >>>>>

Mal: Heres what the Catholic Encyclopedia from Catholic answers above you has to say

I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Purgatory (Lat., purgare, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: “Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. xxx; Sess. XXII, cap. ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful” (Denzinger, “Enchiridion”, 983). Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teaching of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

in addition : Much discussion has arisen over the position of the Greeks on the question of purgatory (“Perpetuite de la foi”, III, col. 1123 sq.). It would seem that the great difference of opinion was not concerning the existence of purgatory, but concerning the nature of purgatorial fire; still St. Thomas proves the existence of purgatory in his dissertation against the errors of the Greeks, and the Council of Florence also thought necessary to affirm the belief of the Church on the subject (Bellarmine, “De Purgatorio”, lib. I, cap. i). The modern Orthodox Church denies purgatory, but is rather inconsistent in its way of putting forth its belief (Fortescue, “Orthodox Eastern Church”, London, 1907, 389).

So it would appear we may be at an impasse and Catholic doctrine remains clear on the subject.

 

[Formosus]

descendit ad ínferos

He descended into hell is an accurate translation of this passage. There is a concept of the “Limbo of the Fathers” which has generally been considered part of hell by the west. Christ went down into this place and rescued the righteous of the OT. There is a beautiful icon that depicts this seen.

Furthermore, the Latin Vulgate uses the term Infernus often in the psalms to refer to hell or the land of the dead.

 

[ProVobis]

He descended into hell is an accurate translation of this passage. …Furthermore, the Latin Vulgate uses the term Infernus often in the psalms to refer to hell or the land of the dead.

And where is the infallible teaching that says the most accurate translation of infernus is hell? You need to look at the Greek as well. (See how well you taught me, Phillip Rolfes? )

Christ did nothing wrong to deserve inferno or anything else. Hell is eternal punishment; it’s not a 90 degree day in Chicago.

 

[Malleus_01]

<<<< He descended into hell is an accurate translation of this passage. There is a concept of the “Limbo of the Fathers” which has generally been considered part of hell by the west. Christ went down into this place and rescued the righteous of the OT. There is a beautiful icon that depicts this seen.

Furthermore, the Latin Vulgate uses the term Infernus often in the psalms to refer to hell or the land of the dead. >>>>

Mal: Well put. In addition note the term HE DESCENDED. That implies of his own power.(Meaning the power of GOD / Jesus being the second person and no I dont want to get into a filioque argument) Jesus was not SENT to Hell. He Descended into Hell. Just as He Arose from the Dead and Ascended into Heaven.

The Blessed Virgin Mary however - was ASSUMED into Heaven. Note the distinct difference.

<<<< And where is the infallible teaching that says the most accurate translation of infernus is hell? You need to look at the Greek as well. (See how well you taught me, Phillip Rolfes? ) >>>>>

Mal: Ah - but OUR Lord was not SENT to Hell.

Christ did nothing wrong to deserve inferno or anything else. Hell is eternal punishment; it’s not a 90 degree day in Chicago

Mal: Agreed , and once again Our Lord was not SENT to Hell. He “descended” of his own(GOD’S) Power

 

[Formosus]

And where is the infallible teaching that says the most accurate translation of infernus is hell? You need to look at the Greek as well. (See how well you taught me, Phillip Rolfes? )

Christ did nothing wrong to deserve inferno or anything else. Hell is eternal punishment; it’s not a 90 degree day in Chicago.

Perhaps you should read the rest of my post and open your catechism up to # 631 concerning the exact passage that is being dealt with in the Apostle’s Creed.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

And where is the infallible teaching that says the most accurate translation of infernus is hell? You need to look at the Greek as well. (See how well you taught me, Phillip Rolfes? )

Christ did nothing wrong to deserve inferno or anything else. Hell is eternal punishment; it’s not a 90 degree day in Chicago.

Hi ProVobis! Malphono was kind enough to point out (rightly) that the Apostles Creed is actually a Roman/Latin baptismal Creed from sometime during the early centuries of the Church. As such Latin would be the language to look at. But looking at the wider context of the Church, the icon of the “Resurrection” that the Eastern Churches use on Pascha is actually more properly called the “Descent into Hades.” It’s important for us to remember that Hades/Hell doesn’t necessarily have the connotation in its original usage as it does for us today. If I remember correctly, the Jewish and early Christian people all believed that Hades/Hell was where the souls of all the departed went. Christians, naturally, believe that when Christ died and decended into Hades/Hell he freed the souls of the just who had been detained there (I think I remember reading in an old Baltimore Catechism that the belief is that the souls of the unrighteous were also detained there, and then sent to the Eternal Fire [what we now call Hell] upon Christ’s descent). If we think of it in these terms then we can see that there is a proper understanding of Christ descending into Hell, although it might be better suited to modern Catholic’s sensitivities to call it Hades instead of Hell (perhaps even “limbo”???)

 

[ProVobis]

Hi ProVobis! Malphono was kind enough to point out (rightly) that the Apostles Creed is actually a Roman/Latin baptismal Creed from sometime during the early centuries of the Church. As such Latin would be the language to look at.

Here you had me convinced me to study Greek and you’re going back to Latin.

It may be all a moot point in the EF, though, as the Apostles Creed is not an option. But it is a good exercise in having an accurate-as-possible translation for today’s vernacular.

 

[Hesychios]

The Church was not established in Rome but rather in Jerusalem…

… Latin connects me with my ancestors many of whom suffered greatly for their Catholic faith. Tradition means a lot to me as does knowing that if I had a time machine and could drop back into the Renaissance, I would be able to attend and participate in Mass.
Latin was a unifying force in the Church.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
brotherhrolf

Memory Eternal!