Significance of Perpetual Virginity

[dcharlesworth]

I being a recent convert to Catholicism have had struggles with the Marian Dogmas. However, I have recently been making strides in this area and am beginning to come to rest on the topic. I have been debating a little bit with a Prodestant Minister friend of mine (He’s in the Christian Reformed Church) and in my opinion have held my own. The topic came to the perpetual virginity of Mary, and a question came up I am not sure I have a great answer for.

Why did / does Mary need to be ever Virgin? Everyone agrees Jesus came of a Virgin birth, however this is not sufficient.

Thanks

 

[Fidelis]

That’s a good question. The answer, like so many other questions about Mary, is that it truly has more to do with Jesus than it does with Mary.

How so? It is because the significance of Mary’s perpetual virginity is one of fittingness. As the all pure vessel that carried the All Holy, Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity, Creator of the universe, she was totally consecrated, or specially set apart, for this task. As such, her body could not be considered again for profane uses.

Take for analogy the Ark of the Covenant, which is also a traditional title for Mary. Because the Ark was constructed for the purpose of being the very seat of God for the Israelites it would be unthinkable to use it for other purposes, say, to store old socks or as a foot rest. Just so, because Jesus as God is so Holy, Mary also was completely consecrated. To not acknowledge this is to have an insufficient appreciation of the holiness and transcendence, not just of Mary, but of God.

If you haven’t already, a great book to read on this subject is Scott Hahn’s “Hail Holy Queen.”

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Note the prophecy of Ezechiel 43:1-3, 44:1-2.

Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate facing east.
[2] And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the east; and the sound of his coming was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with his glory.
[3] And the vision I saw was like the vision which I had seen when he came to destroy the city, and like the vision which I had seen by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
. . .
[1]
Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut.
[2] And he said to me, "This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.

This is fulfilled by Mary. Mary,s womb is the gate by which God entered this world. No man shall enter by it.

 

[dcharlesworth]

How so? It is because the significance of Mary’s perpetual virginity is one of fittingness. As the all pure vessel that carried the All Holy, Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity, Creator of the universe, she was totally consecrated, or specially set apart, for this task. As such, her body could not be considered again for profane uses.

I can see this as fitting, however I don’t see why having children would be considered a “profane” use of her body. “Profane” or even “bad” should not be the word used to describe sex and child birth. Is it not a good thing as tought by the Church?

 

[dcharlesworth]

Also, I don’t doubt the credulity of the argument for Mary’s perpetual virginity. And as you have quoted it did fulfill prophesy, however that still doesn’t seem to answer the reason why it needed to be this way. I can see why it would be needed for a Virgin birth of Jesus, however after that fact, it seems well and good to be able to have Children, as God had planned for us in the garden.

 

[promethius95945]

The topic came to the perpetual virginity of Mary, and a question came up I am not sure I have a great answer for.

Why did / does Mary need to be ever Virgin? Everyone agrees Jesus came of a Virgin birth, however this is not sufficient.

If you want to answer him, then do so from the position of theological LOGIC. Read up on the ark of the covenant and the requirements of the ark… made of pure substances, home to the sacrificial lamb and the high priest, NO ONE else was allowed to enter…

The Virgin Mary is the NEW ark of the covenant, her womb was home to the Lamb of God and the High Priest of the catholic church (Jesus was both). Her body was the pure substance of the ark (hence why she was pre-saved by Jesus’ sacrifice and born without sin, so that her body would be pure to bear Jesus forth). Finally, and the answer to your question: NO ONE could defile the ark of the covenant by intruding upon it. as such, Mary’s BODY was off limits to ANYONE. Joseph could not have sex with her, nor could she bear other children without defiling the chief temple of God: her own body which she gave in service to God alone.

 

[DAWNCUROLE]

I had problems with this and for a long time and chose to accept that this was true because it is what I was taught to be true. I had problem thinking that the doctrine was saying that sex or child birth was bad or evil. That however, is not what this doctrine says. Mary’s womb had one purpose to hold our Lord and Savior. Think about it this way, you wouldn’t use a cirborium to hold our Lord’s body and blood (concecrated hosts) one day and and then use it to hold leftovers from the parish potluck the next. Potluck leftovers are not bad, they just don’t belong in the vessel meant to hold our Lord and Savior. Sorry, if this example offends anyone, it just puts it into simple terms.

 

[Fidelis]

I can see this as fitting, however I don’t see why having children would be considered a “profane” use of her body. “Profane” or even “bad” should not be the word used to describe sex and child birth. Is it not a good thing as tought by the Church?

It’s all a matter of relativity. Sex and child-birth are considered good by the Church, even holy. However compared to the unsurpassable holiness of God, anything, however otherwise good is considered profane, relatively speaking. Even if we consider sex holy (and we do) what is holier – sex or God? And how much more so?

This is what I meant when I pointed out that one must have a sufficient appreciation of the holiness and transcendence of God. We are so used to thinking of God as our Big Daddy in the sky, or even as our pal, we have lost our sense of awe. This sense of awe at God’s holiness is where we should **begin **when we think about the totally otherness of the personhood of God. Then other things, like the wonder of the Incarnation (such that we bow when it is mentioned as we recite the Creed at Mass) and the perpetual virginity of Mary will make more sense. It’s all truly relative.

 

[Fidelis]

Finally, and the answer to your question: NO ONE could defile the ark of the covenant by intruding upon it. as such, Mary’s BODY was off limits to ANYONE. Joseph could not have sex with her, nor could she bear other children without defiling the chief temple of God: her own body which she gave in service to God alone.

Absolutely! Recall what happened to Uzzah when he dared touch the Ark of the Covenant:

1
David again assembled all the picked men of Israel, thirty thousand in number.
2
Then David and all the people who were with him set out for Baala of Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which bears the name of the LORD of hosts enthroned above the cherubim.
3
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, guided the cart,
4
with Ahio walking before it,
5
while David and all the Israelites made merry before the LORD with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums and cymbals.
6
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God and steadied it, for the oxen were making it tip.
7
But the LORD was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:1-7)

 

[Ruthie]

“I don’t see why having children would be considered a “profane” use of her body.”

The hinge of this is Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. If one can’t accept that, then the rest of my argument is useless.

The Ark of the Covenant in the OT was a chest, holding the tablets of the Commandments, Aaron’s staff, and some manna.

Anyone who decided to put his stuff in that particular chest would meet an instant death. Just touching it was deadly! (Fidelis found the verses; 2 Sam 6:6-7.)

Joseph would have known this. He wouldn’t have dared to try to impregnate Mary!

He is told in Mt 1:20-21 that “that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”

Your Protestant friend may bring up Mt 1:25 (“knew her not until she had borne a son”). That seems to imply that Joseph did have children with Mary.

But “until” doesn’t always mean “but not after.” It can refer to a significant event, without changing the action. Some examples:

Ed studied hard until he was accepted to Harvard Medical School.

Arnold Schwarzenegger worked out until he won “Mr. Universe.”

Mary rode every day until she joined the US Equestrian Team.

Jane walked to work every day until she lost 20 pounds.

I could go on, and on, and on… but I’m sure you get my drift!

Ruthie