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deb1
Guest
Guess I’ll have a happy husband then, huh? Coincidence or determined by the stars, I’m sure he won’t care.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
-]/-]Grace & Peace!
The fascinating thing about astrology and the church (given the vehemence with which it is attacked on purely scientific grounds) is that it assumes that the universe is basically sacramental–that is, the universe is a symbol of a reality that both supercedes it and is contained within it.
The basic assumption in astrology is that the movements of the stars, the planets (everything, in fact) relate directly and providentially to spiritual forces and influences. The position of Jupiter in a horoscope, for instance, does not mean that Jupiter the planet is exerting an influence, but that the forces which Jupiter represents are exerting an influence.
That having been said, what the church finds rightly distasteful in astrology is that reliance on it eliminates free-will and tends towards fatalism. The church does not want you to abandon your free will to cosmic forces (as Paul, I believe, called them). It does not want its children to fall into the empty despair of fatalism.
Full disclosure–I identify very strongly with a view of the universe which sees it as essentially symbolic. I do not know, however, if there is anything to astrology. But if there is, I would be inclined to believe that the “stars” incline, they do not compel. And the danger would be in confusing inclination with compulsion.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
The fascinating thing about astrology and the church (given the vehemence with which it is attacked on purely scientific grounds) is that it assumes that the universe is basically sacramental–that is, the universe is a symbol of a reality that both supercedes it and is contained within it.
The basic assumption in astrology is that the movements of the stars, the planets (everything, in fact) relate directly and providentially to spiritual forces and influences. The position of Jupiter in a horoscope, for instance, does not mean that Jupiter the planet is exerting an influence, but that the forces which Jupiter represents are exerting an influence.
That having been said, what the church finds rightly distasteful in astrology is that reliance on it eliminates free-will and tends towards fatalism. The church does not want you to abandon your free will to cosmic forces (as Paul, I believe, called them). It does not want its children to fall into the empty despair of fatalism.
Full disclosure–I identify very strongly with a view of the universe which sees it as essentially symbolic. I do not know, however, if there is anything to astrology. But if there is, I would be inclined to believe that the “stars” incline, they do not compel. And the danger would be in confusing inclination with compulsion.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
Deo Gratias!
M
MariaG
Guest
I agree. And the scenario just shows that the friend believes that the different signs, produce different personality types.
This is not what Zodiac signs do, or if some think it does, this is not what the OP’s friend thinks of it.
It appears that the person believes that people tend to have different personality types according to their signs.
I actually TEND to agree. While there are always exceptions, whenever people have told me the personality types for the Zodiac signs of my kids and myself, they actually hold true to form.
That doesn’t mean that if my Zodiac sign says that I don’t like something that I let that personality trait control my decisions and my life, unless I choose to let it. I actually know someone like that. Because her Zodiac sign says she doesn’t like to be told what to do, she deliberately won’t do things at work right away when told to:dts: Her Zodiac sign does not take away her free will, she just chooses to act like an idiot.
Learning what personalities are supposed to come with certain Zodiac signs is not sinful. Might not be true, but it is not sinful.
I agree. And anyone who has worked in the EMS/Police/hospital field or has loved one does, can attest to the crazies that seem to spring from the crevices during a full moon, or other significant events that happen with the planets.
Doesn’t mean these people were* compell*ed to do crazy things, but there is something we can’t yet identify that works on people that *inclines *evil/stupid people to act evil or stupid during these times. And they choose to do so.
God Bless,
Maria
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Cristiano
Guest
Our genetic code, our parents, and the environment where we grow up define most of our character. Does that take away from our free will? NO
While it is stupid (in my opinion) to believe that the zodiac (because of supernatural astral powers) I think that is also stupid to automatically discard cyclical (or not) changes in environmental conditions where we are born and grow up.
**I do not believe in superstition because it brings bad luck! **
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BobP123
Guest
Especially where there is legitimate cause-and-effect possibility. A black cat can scare you, walking under a ladder can be dangerous, and scoring 7 runs may win the game. And if everthing is going your way today and then you read the planets line up properly, then they are probably going to continue going your way today because you can’t help but feel it’s because the planets line up that way. (That’s a tough one, though. Better pray and thank God for that nice day just to be on the safe side.)
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Ahimsa
Guest
It doesn’t actually negate all the predictions, because many predictions are made independently of the sign the planets are supposedly in.There’s a thing called precession which means that the stars above us now aren’t in the same position as they were, say 2,000 years ago.
I was born in July. 2,000 years ago they looked up into the skies and saw that the constellation of Cancer was predominant. Now, 2,000 years later, it’s shifted so that Gemini is predominant, and yet I’m supposed to be affected by the constellation Cancer!
That does not of course disprove that I’m now actually being influenced by Gemini - but it does negate all the predictions made in horoscopes - 'cause they’re all based on the wrong star sign.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Actually, there are several possibilities for the sign of the Cross. First, there’s Pisces, symbolized by two fishes, ancient symbols for Christianity. Then there’s the Lion of Judah – Leo.I was asked once what my sign was. I answered, the sign of the Cross.
It’s not one of the 12 signs of the zodiac, but it’s the only one that matters.
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johnstown_johnn
Guest
Free will supersedes all the things mentioned (genetic code; environment, etc.). Is there a “genetic code” for each one’s own soul?Our genetic code, our parents, and the environment where we grow up define most of our character. Does that take away from our free will? NO
While it is stupid (in my opinion) to believe that the zodiac (because of supernatural astral powers) I think that is also stupid to automatically discard cyclical (or not) changes in environmental conditions where we are born and grow up.
**I do not believe in superstition because it brings bad luck! **
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Ahimsa
Guest
Are you saying that, using my free will, I can make my brown eyes blue?
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Montalban
Guest
They also made up their own Zodical signs, including “Harrods”I have never heard that particular Monty Python bit.
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Cristiano
Guest
Well, you are making a good point about people ignorance. Someone can believe in the alignment of the planets out of a possible pseudo-scientific explanation. That does not mean that they believe in some supernatural power.
The problem usually come from pseudo-science and untested theories. People believe in that because someone that is famous said so. Look at that garbage emails that are going around about home made cancer cures. Often people hear what the want to hear and they are even happier if the see correlations instead of cause-effect relations.
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Cristiano
Guest
I am sorry but I do not get your point! Can you please elaborate?
I would not be overly surprised if there were a genetic code that somehow gave an association to our soul. Having a soul does not take free will away. God created us and maybe that is the way to unify our body to our soul. Not everything has to be a mystery of faith.
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MHalsey
Guest
There’s also Cygnus the Swan, which is also known as the northern cross.Actually, there are several possibilities for the sign of the Cross. First, there’s Pisces, symbolized by two fishes, ancient symbols for Christianity. Then there’s the Lion of Judah – Leo.
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Liquid47
Guest
Hey guys, sorry to revive an old thread.
But is there anyone else here who would not outright disagree with everything said in the quote above?
I say this because I was recently intrigued by certain aspects of astrology. Let me say first I completely disregard horoscopes and reading the future etc because I do like to believe I’m in control of my own life.
However when reading about the traits of people born under the sign, I couldn’t help but think how spot on they were for me and most of my friends. It was eerily spot on for common personality traits and love-compatibility stuff (which, if anyone here with an open mind, should check out because sometimes it can be hilariously blunt about what you’d do in a relationship).
Yes, I had friends who didn’t follow word for word what their personalities were suppose to be, but it all goes down to what Mark said before: inclination. I mean, is it possible that even though our free will overrides any sort of calling from a supernatural force (which is also evident in the Bible), that we are inclined to do things in ways which have been studied for a long time i.e the personality traits of the Zodiac?
Much like those living in countries where it is rude to stare people in the eye, that it would be natural for them to act that way their entire life, though they can conciously override that habit?
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stringbeanduck
Guest
I never got into that zodiac stuff. I’ll make up my own signs, they’ll be just as accurate. I was born in april so I’m gonna be a cloud later on er somthing…
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OmegaMan5
Guest
I think dove51 is correct. All that horroscope stuff isn’t real. it’s all fake .
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glenaitken
Guest
The zodiac stuff is so general half the time that it could apply to anyone. you can fit the descriptions for both cancer and gemini at the same time. the power of superstition is in the belief in it. If I believe that since I am a Libra that I will act like a libra, then it psycologically effects my behavior and thus becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If I believe that something bad will happen today, I’ll be waiting for it and recognize any bad thing as trhe fulfilment and proof of zodiac prophecy. If your friend really believes this, then I would agree with alot of the posts here in advising an argument from the freedom of the will and of justice. if the constellation cancer predetermined for me to commit murder today, then how can i be held liable for my actions? also, why weren’t more people murdered today if there are X amount of cancers? if my actions are predetermined, then how can i go to hell?
a visual aid may also help. take either a big rock or a flamming ball of gas and name it. then walk in circles around your friend and tell her that this “star” is commanding her to get you a cheeseburger. its basically the same thing as astrology.
ancient people believed that the heavens were made up of quintessence (the fith and heavenly element), and with the influence of philosophers like Plato and other ancients who believed that the higher realsm dictated or influenced the lower realms, astologers felt a little justified in the idea that heavenly energy was directing them and planning thier fates. (granted astrology was around long before plato) this idea makes sense from a christian perspective if not taken literally because God does have a plan for your life and the higher realsm of heaven do play a part in our lives, but it is not quite the same thing as predetermination. also, the popularity of astrology is in that one can feel as if there is a plan and an order- a destiny for one’s life. this is the magor reason it was developed- so that people could try to make sense of the world and life in general. since we are christains, all of these questions are answered by christ and the CHurch, and thus astrology is pase. if we listen to the zodiac, we cannot hear the voice of God speaking to us because we will be paying attention to the creature instead of the Creator.
a visual aid may also help. take either a big rock or a flamming ball of gas and name it. then walk in circles around your friend and tell her that this “star” is commanding her to get you a cheeseburger. its basically the same thing as astrology.
ancient people believed that the heavens were made up of quintessence (the fith and heavenly element), and with the influence of philosophers like Plato and other ancients who believed that the higher realsm dictated or influenced the lower realms, astologers felt a little justified in the idea that heavenly energy was directing them and planning thier fates. (granted astrology was around long before plato) this idea makes sense from a christian perspective if not taken literally because God does have a plan for your life and the higher realsm of heaven do play a part in our lives, but it is not quite the same thing as predetermination. also, the popularity of astrology is in that one can feel as if there is a plan and an order- a destiny for one’s life. this is the magor reason it was developed- so that people could try to make sense of the world and life in general. since we are christains, all of these questions are answered by christ and the CHurch, and thus astrology is pase. if we listen to the zodiac, we cannot hear the voice of God speaking to us because we will be paying attention to the creature instead of the Creator.
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MariaG
Guest
I see the signs of the Zodiac as similar to birth order. There are similar traits that kids have according to their birth order,(1st, 2nd etc). When we look at it scientifically, we can see that the environment exerts influences on the children. The Family dynamics change etc. But with science we can see how the envrionment effects the personality of a person.
I think the zodiac signs may be a similar thing. There are scientific planatery forces that effect the development of personality. Just like birth order, there are always exceptions or incomplete fits. But there may be some planetary forces, that may someday be able to be explained scientifically, that effect our behavoirs.
God Bless,
Maria
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Liquid47
Guest
Nope, see that’s the thing, for me and my friend at least, we do not fit for any other sign that we are not under, and we had already tested that by reading unnamed personalities before we settled on the correct ones. I’ve had at least one friend though that does go against his star sign, which would tell otherwise. Let me tell also tell you we had no prior knowledge to what these star sign personality traits were.
Second, I do believe I have the ability to measure what’s precise, and what’s vague; it’s a skill you I really had to learn for the creative side of the film industry. Now, horoscopes, virtually all types – be it the ones in the paper or the ones from self-proclaimed seers, are pretty much too vague that practically anything can be applied to them.
Yet these personalities that I’ve read are very precise (note that I say precise, not accurate), that in reality you can either be or not be what they are describing. No middle ground. You can’t apply a million instances like you could for horoscopes.
I mean honestly, how many ways can you interpret something along the lines of “with a tough outer shell and a very soft body, cancers will appear to be insensitive to most outsiders and most things emotionally unattached to them”. I don’t just half heartedly do that, I fully embody it lmao.
As I said earlier I do not believe in all things under astrology. Horoscopes is the major one; the one you clearly satired. Another one I’m a little skeptical of would be descriptions of physical appearance.
What if, like the theory of Evolution before it, certain parts of astrology are compatible with our faith? Of course, anything to do with absolute fatalism would clearly be ruled out, but something like having a personality (which, mind you, can obviously be ruled out by free will) I do not see as having such a huge impact on the Church.
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Liquid47
Guest
Hmm…that is interesting.
I wonder if the planets do have that much of an affect on our mortal selves to do such a thing.
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