silence film

  • Thread starter Thread starter Shaolen
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Commentary on this film by Catholic scholar John Horvat II:
Such a shallow story (i.e., ‘Martin Scorsese’s latest film “Silence’) so contrary to all Church teaching would usually pose no threat to Catholics who are firm in their Faith. However, Hollywood has tragically assumed the role of a teaching authority to countless American Catholics. Thus, the principal lesson taught by the film—that outwardly denying the Faith can sometimes be justified and even desired by God—does pose a danger to the many uncatechized that might mistake Hollywood script for Scriptures. Any silence about “Silence” might be misconstrued as consent . . .
Click to expand...
Such a combination leads to absurd characterizations like that of “Silence.” Martyrdom cannot be based on emotion or feeling since it involves surrendering man’s greatest natural gift—life. This is something so difficult that it is beyond human strength to achieve. Martyrdom must entail grace, which enlightens the intellect and strengthens the will to allow Christians to do that which is beyond human nature. God’s grace would never allow a person to deny Christ before men.
**
Martyrdom—The Fruit of Grace . . . **
Click to expand...
And that is why faithful Catholics cannot remain silent in the face of Scorcese’s “Silence.” Scorcese’s film is a tragic denial of God’s grace in a world in dire need of it. In these days when Catholics are being martyred, Catholics need to know that God is never silent. **They will never be put in a situation where God betrays Himself. **He will always be there when needed.
Click to expand...
returntoorder.org/2017/01/catholics-cannot-silent-scorseses-silence/
 
I will not watch it because I’m extremely sensitive and can’t take violence or even a little gore. The opinions on this film seem pretty divided but I’m glad it’s getting people with differing views to have intelligent discussion.
I go to a Jesuit parish and the pastor is not a fan and even said that he didn’t recommend the movie which I found interesting. He made sure to include his opinion during the announcements so I guess he feels strongly about it. 🤷
 
Dwyer said:
Commentary on this film by Catholic scholar John Horvat II:

returntoorder.org/2017/01/catholics-cannot-silent-scorseses-silence/
Click to expand...
Seems strange to say God’s grace would never allow a person to deny him before men. God’s grace can’t override free will. Also this actually happened. Priests on fire for the faith really did get forced into apostasy to save their flock.

And to me - even if what the priest did was unjustifiable (the movie doesn’t present it as a good thing fwiw. It feels like a tragedy the way it goes down.) it’s a Hollywood film that presents priests as courageous men, not perverts. And the sacraments are shown bringing real joy and peace to the people. That’s pretty big IMO. Maybe this will open people up to researching Catholicism.

Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God is constantly silent. That’s what Jesus was feeling on the cross.

I’ve been going through a rough patch in my relationship with God. I’m trying to do everything he commanded and I keep getting the door slammed in my face. I’m going to be honest, hearing God tell Rodriguez that he was born into our pain and he knows our pain and that he was there all along in the silence is exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. I started sobbing right then and there. I’m not exaggerating that it might have saved me. That’s what good art can do. It doesn’t always give a perfect lesson, but it can touch souls and point them back to God.
 
Robyn_p said:
Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God is constantly silent. That’s what Jesus was feeling on the cross.
Click to expand...
True.

I think one of the big themes that many faithful Catholic reviews that criticize the movie ignore is the problem of evil, which is a legitimate problem for someone struggling with suffering and death all around him or her. You can’t expect everyone to have strong faith in God, and it’s a legitimate concern for those who are even struggling to be certain of God’s existence.

This makes these reviews almost reductive in their analysis.
 
CatholicWhovian said:
True. I’ll even say paradoxically that God speaks to us in silence.

I think one of the big themes that many faithful Catholic reviews that criticize the movie ignore is the problem of evil, which is a legitimate problem for someone struggling with suffering and death all around him or her. You can’t expect everyone to have strong faith in God, and it’s a legitimate concern for those who are even struggling to be certain of God’s existence.

This makes these reviews almost reductive in their analysis.
Click to expand...
 
i read the book. it is very depressing and sad.

i would not want to see the movie
 
Robyn_p said:
Seems strange to say God’s grace would never allow a person to deny him before men. God’s grace can’t override free will. Also this actually happened. Priests on fire for the faith really did get forced into apostasy to save their flock.

And to me - even if what the priest did was unjustifiable (the movie doesn’t present it as a good thing fwiw. It feels like a tragedy the way it goes down.) it’s a Hollywood film that presents priests as courageous men, not perverts. And the sacraments are shown bringing real joy and peace to the people. That’s pretty big IMO. Maybe this will open people up to researching Catholicism.

Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God is constantly silent. That’s what Jesus was feeling on the cross.

I’ve been going through a rough patch in my relationship with God. I’m trying to do everything he commanded and I keep getting the door slammed in my face. I’m going to be honest, hearing God tell Rodriguez that he was born into our pain and he knows our pain and that he was there all along in the silence is exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. I started sobbing right then and there. I’m not exaggerating that it might have saved me. That’s what good art can do. It doesn’t always give a perfect lesson, but it can touch souls and point them back to God.
Click to expand...
Atheists criticized Mother Teresa’s dark night as evidence that she was a fake. To be near Christ’s cross is not an easy place to be, and feeling cut-off from God is one of the fallouts of original sin. I went through it in high school, though not to the same degree as others. I only just discovered a few months ago that it was a dark night of the senses. (Not even a dark night of the soul.) It was difficult.
 
SPOILER ALERT - there are spoilers throughout this thread, but I still feel it necessary and polite to put out a SPOILER ALERT

I’m sad to read so many Catholics refusing to see this movie or give the story the attention that it deserves simply because of Rodrigues’s apostasy. Neither the book nor the movie is suggesting that apostasy is any kind of acceptable answer or lifestyle. Rather, both the movie and the book present the horns of a terrible dilemma, that when you contemplate further, you will find that is is as profound and rewarding as it is challenging and tragic. I encourage all of you to strip yourselves of your rash judgements and give this story a chance. Put yourself in the shoes of Rodrigues, and be honest with yourselves as to what you would choose when presented with such a terrible choice.

Put yourself in the center of the most brutal and cruel Christian persecution in history. Spend months ministering to these people in secret, with danger of discovery haunting your every step. Have some of of your flock repeatedly apostatize and then return seeking reconciliation. Continually pray and ask for God’s guidance, but only receiving silence in reply. Continually pray for the suffering of your flock to be eased, but again, only receiving silence in reply. For months and months, pray but receive nothing but silence. And then be captured and forced to sit there watching and listening as your flock is tortured, and having the power to stop it by merely stepping on an image of Christ. Imagine in that terrible moment, hearing a voice that you believe to be the voice of Christ in your head telling you to step on the image…

What would you do?

Remember, they weren’t torturing Rodrigues. He wasn’t doing it to save himself. And while it isn’t possible to determine if the voice is actually Christ’s voice or not, it is at least presented as an authentic voice of some kind. The silence is finally broken, but it’s telling him to do something that contradicts everything he has done up to that point. His life’s work, his suffering up to that point, his entire belief structure, is all undone with the voice that finally breaks the silence.

What would you do?

Would you seriously let other people, innocent people, die for your faith? Would you ignore the voice of Christ? Or would you commit to the paradox of apostasy in the name of true faith? Would you condemn yourself to save others? Would you give up your life’s work if Christ told you to? Would you deny Christ’s name externally in order to obey Christ’s command internally? And if so, how could you ever be sure that it was Christ’s command?

This choice, this dilemma, is the point of the story. Not apostasy. Not torture. Not some convoluted relativistic modern Hollywood moral lesson. This terrible choice, if you really think it through, and really put yourself in Rodrigues’s place, I think you will find that he isn’t just some faithless apostate, but rather a martyr of a different and more tragic sort.

I can understand some resistance to supporting Scorcese. But do yourself a favor and at least read the novel.

Thanks for your time.
 
JoshuaXIII said:
SPOILER ALERT - there are spoilers throughout this thread, but I still feel it necessary and polite to put out a SPOILER ALERT

I’m sad to read so many Catholics refusing to see this movie or give the story the attention that it deserves simply because of Rodrigues’s apostasy. Neither the book nor the movie is suggesting that apostasy is any kind of acceptable answer or lifestyle. Rather, both the movie and the book present the horns of a terrible dilemma, that when you contemplate further, you will find that is is as profound and rewarding as it is challenging and tragic. I encourage all of you to strip yourselves of your rash judgements and give this story a chance. Put yourself in the shoes of Rodrigues, and be honest with yourselves as to what you would choose when presented with such a terrible choice.

Put yourself in the center of the most brutal and cruel Christian persecution in history. Spend months ministering to these people in secret, with danger of discovery haunting your every step. Have some of of your flock repeatedly apostatize and then return seeking reconciliation. Continually pray and ask for God’s guidance, but only receiving silence in reply. Continually pray for the suffering of your flock to be eased, but again, only receiving silence in reply. For months and months, pray but receive nothing but silence. And then be captured and forced to sit there watching and listening as your flock is tortured, and having the power to stop it by merely stepping on an image of Christ. Imagine in that terrible moment, hearing a voice that you believe to be the voice of Christ in your head telling you to step on the image…

What would you do?

Remember, they weren’t torturing Rodrigues. He wasn’t doing it to save himself. And while it isn’t possible to determine if the voice is actually Christ’s voice or not, it is at least presented as an authentic voice of some kind. The silence is finally broken, but it’s telling him to do something that contradicts everything he has done up to that point. His life’s work, his suffering up to that point, his entire belief structure, is all undone with the voice that finally breaks the silence.

What would you do?

Would you seriously let other people, innocent people, die for your faith? Would you ignore the voice of Christ? Or would you commit to the paradox of apostasy in the name of true faith? Would you condemn yourself to save others? Would you give up your life’s work if Christ told you to? Would you deny Christ’s name externally in order to obey Christ’s command internally? And if so, how could you ever be sure that it was Christ’s command?

This choice, this dilemma, is the point of the story. Not apostasy. Not torture. Not some convoluted relativistic modern Hollywood moral lesson. This terrible choice, if you really think it through, and really put yourself in Rodrigues’s place, I think you will find that he isn’t just some faithless apostate, but rather a martyr of a different and more tragic sort.

I can understand some resistance to supporting Scorcese. But do yourself a favor and at least read the novel.

Thanks for your time.
Click to expand...
👍👍👍 very good summary. I agree people should watch the movie.
 
JoshuaXIII said:
This choice, this dilemma, is the point of the story. Not apostasy. Not torture. Not some convoluted relativistic modern Hollywood moral lesson. This terrible choice, if you really think it through, and really put yourself in Rodrigues’s place, I think you will find that he isn’t just some faithless apostate, but rather a martyr of a different and more tragic sort.
Click to expand...
… which gives me some thought about those who criticize the movie for it “glorifying” apostasy.

Have we, Catholics who have enjoyed religious freedom and the comforts of the modern age for so long, forgotten what it feels like to be persecuted under the threat of death? I mean, religious freedom is being threatened now in the West, but such persecution has not reached that level wherein being a Catholic means being sentenced to death. One of the main themes of Silence is human weakness, and I think the movie reminds us that even the most loyal and faithful of men can be susceptible to weakness under such pressing circumstances.

Fr. Rodrigues is an apostate, yes, and what he did was a sin. But considering the circumstances of 17th century Japan, would we be too quick to judge his soul if we considered Fr. Rodrigues to be an apostate forever? Remember we as Christians should only judge actions, not souls, for the judgement of the soul is only reserved by God.

I already knew Fr. Rodrigues apostatized but I don’t know the details afterwards, so my analysis in the paragraph above is pending until I watched the movie.
 
CatholicWhovian said:
… which gives me some thought about those who criticize the movie for it “glorifying” apostasy.

Have we, Catholics who have enjoyed religious freedom and the comforts of the modern age for so long, forgotten what it feels like to be persecuted under the threat of death? I mean, religious freedom is being threatened now in the West, but such persecution has not reached that level wherein being a Catholic means being sentenced to death. One of the main themes of Silence is human weakness, and I think the movie reminds us that even the most loyal and faithful of men can be susceptible to weakness under such pressing circumstances.

Fr. Rodrigues is an apostate, yes, and what he did was a sin. But considering the circumstances of 17th century Japan, would we be too quick to judge his soul if we considered Fr. Rodrigues to be an apostate forever? Remember we as Christians should only judge actions, not souls, for the judgement of the soul is only reserved by God.

I already knew Fr. Rodrigues apostatized but I don’t know the details afterwards, so my analysis in the paragraph above is pending until I watched the movie.
Click to expand...
It definitely makes one appreciate being able to worship freely and have priests available to us and have weekday and weekend Masses. We have the Sacraments available to us and continuing adult religious education. We are blessed with so much and the Catholics in Japan were so hungry for their faith. They tried their best to keep the faith alive.
 
Robyn_p said:
Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God is constantly silent. That’s what Jesus was feeling on the cross.
Click to expand...
To say that God is constantly silent is overstating the matter.
Full Question
Click to expand...
One huge impediment to my faith is that God never communicates with me. I pray daily, attend Mass often, and confess at least twice a month. But I still feel nothing but emptiness and silence from God. How is it possible to have a relationship with God if he won’t at least have a conversation with me?
Click to expand...
Answer
Click to expand...
If God ever ignored you, you would cease to exist. He affirms you with your every heartbeat. Are you disgruntled because he isn’t conforming to your standards? He speaks to you on his terms all the time. And I don’t mean just through his creation. He speaks to you by the gift of faith that he has given you. He speaks to you from every crucifix you have ever seen. But most of all he speaks to you from the chalice on the altar which contains the blood that he willingly shed for you. Think of this: We are attracted to the good in things and then love them for that reason. But when God loves things, he makes them lovable by loving them. When we look at a crucifix and see how much he loves us, we also see how lovable we are!
Click to expand...
All of this is Jesus speaking to us. But we have to be focused on him and not what we want from him. As for the good feelings that you want, he obviously has not determined that they would be the best for you at this time. Mother Teresa went without such gratification for 20 years. But he still spoke to her through the graces he gave her. I’m sure she would tell you that such gratification is worth waiting for.
Click to expand...
– Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P.
Click to expand...
catholic.com/qa/why-is-god-silent

We can hear God speaking to us through our conscience; during prayer; and God speaks to us through the Bible (i.e., The Word of the Lord).

But we also need to be silent ourselves and put away some of that noise which fills the world and listen to God.

catholicexchange.com/hear-god-speaking-to-you
 
Robyn_p said:
Seems strange to say God’s grace would never allow a person to deny him before men. God’s grace can’t override free will. Also this actually happened. Priests on fire for the faith really did get forced into apostasy to save their flock.

And to me - even if what the priest did was unjustifiable (the movie doesn’t present it as a good thing fwiw. It feels like a tragedy the way it goes down.) it’s a Hollywood film that presents priests as courageous men, not perverts. And the sacraments are shown bringing real joy and peace to the people. That’s pretty big IMO. Maybe this will open people up to researching Catholicism.

Also I have to disagree with that author that God is never silent. God is constantly silent. That’s what Jesus was feeling on the cross.

I’ve been going through a rough patch in my relationship with God. I’m trying to do everything he commanded and I keep getting the door slammed in my face. I’m going to be honest, hearing God tell Rodriguez that he was born into our pain and he knows our pain and that he was there all along in the silence is exactly what I needed to hear at that moment. I started sobbing right then and there. I’m not exaggerating that it might have saved me. That’s what good art can do. It doesn’t always give a perfect lesson, but it can touch souls and point them back to God.
Click to expand...
Good points!
 
Dwyer said:
To say that God is constantly silent is overstating the matter.

catholic.com/qa/why-is-god-silent

We can hear God speaking to us through our conscience; during prayer; and God speaks to us through the Bible (i.e., The Word of the Lord).

But we also need to be silent ourselves and put away some of that noise which fills the world and listen to God.

catholicexchange.com/hear-god-speaking-to-you
Click to expand...
True, true. God isn’t actually silent if you know where to look.

But how can you explain that to a person who as seen so much suffering and death that it seems like God isn’t responding to any of his or her prayers? Such an answer is sufficient for someone who isn’t in that kind of life-threatening circumstance. It’s a legitimate problem for someone who wants to know if God actually cares for us… and that’s the kind of problem Silence explores.
 
CatholicWhovian said:
True, true. God isn’t actually silent if you know where to look.

But how can you explain that to a person who as seen so much suffering and death that it seems like God isn’t responding to any of his or her prayers? Such an answer is sufficient for someone who isn’t in that kind of life-threatening circumstance. It’s a legitimate problem for someone who wants to know if God actually cares for us… and that’s the kind of problem Silence explores.
Click to expand...
Yes. Exactly.
 
Haven’t seen it yet, but will. I was intrigued when I first read the synopsis. I did some research on the history irl, then wrote a poem on it. Five connected Haiku, actually, though I’m shopping it as a single piece.
Interesting to read some of the differing perspectives here.
 
I have recently read the book Silence and had considered seeing the film.

What I would like to mention, as i couldn’t find it mentioned in previous posts and some people may not know this, is that the novel and film are partly based on real-life events.

Here is a link to a (long) article covering the real-life apostasy of Cristovao Ferriera, the character played by Liam Neeson in the film: pweb.cc.sophia.ac.jp/britto/xavier/cieslik/cie_ferreira.pdf

This is a link to the Wikipedia article about him: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crist%C3%B3v%C3%A3o_Ferreira

The character of Fr Rodriguez (Andrew Garfield in the film) is based on the real-life priest Guiseppe Chiara:

wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Giuseppe_Chiara
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Chiara
catholic.org/news/ae/movies/story.php?id=56403

I don’t know whether these priests actually met in real life or what the circumstances of their apostasy were - but there seems to be some debate about whether at least one on them may have repented at the end of their life.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top