Silent Latin Mass?

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SemiThomist said:
So, because I prefer it when the Canon (or other licit Eucharistic prayer) is audible as opposed to silent, I’m anathema?
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I don’t think preference is an option here. It is what it is. I didn’t write the Trent documents, many of them written to counter the Reformers (Protestants).
ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS
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DOCTRINE
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Being the sixth under the Sovereign Pontiff, Pius IV., celebrated on the seventeenth day of September, MDLXII.
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The sacred and holy, ecumenical and general Synod of Trent–lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein–to the end that the ancient, complete, and in every part perfect faith and doctrine touching the great mystery of the Eucharist may be retained in the holy Catholic Church; and may, all errors and heresies being repelled, be preserved in its own purity; (the Synod) instructed by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, teaches, declares; and decrees what follows, to be preached to the faithful, on the subject of the Eucharist, considered as being a true and singular sacrifice.
…
CHAPTER V.
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On the solemn ceremonies of the Sacrifice of the Mass.
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And whereas such is the nature of man, that, without external helps, he cannot easily be raised to the meditation of divine things; therefore has holy Mother Church instituted certain rites, to wit that certain things be pronounced in the mass in a low, and others in a louder, tone. She has likewise employed ceremonies, such as mystic benedictions, lights, incense, vestments, and many other things of this kind, derived from an apostolical discipline and tradition, whereby both the majesty of so great a sacrifice might be recommended, and the minds of the faithful be excited, by those visible signs of religion and piety, to the contemplation of those most sublime things which are hidden in this sacrifice.
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Biblioassistant said:
I love a Low Mass. I love the quiet, the opportunity for contemplation. I love everything about it. We never have one though.
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I feel exactly the same way. I love it. I also love the quiet. I love the reverence. I love the words that I know the priest is reciting. I love the meaning and purpose of it. I love the completely God-centered orientation and the sacrificial intention. You can actually PRAY at a quiet Latin mass. It is never profane or distracting. It is never like attending a concert or play.

I’m sorry there is not one offered at your parish. There seldom is. But if you live in a fairly large metropolitan area, there is almost certainly one offered somewhere in your diocese. Look online. Maybe you’ll find one that is offered every week. There are people who drive many miles to attend Latin masses every Sunday.
 
Nan_S said:
I was visiting southern Louisiana recently. When I consulted the phone book to find a Catholic Church I noted a listing for an SSPX church very close to my hotel, offering a traditional Latin Mass. So I chose to go worship there. The last time I attended a traditional Latin Mass in person was over 40 years ago. Occasionally since then I heard a traditional Latin Mass broadcast over the radio. I was hungering for the opportunity to go back.

I now have some questions, so I came here to ask. The mass wasn’t quite what I expected, and overall I found it a less-than-enriching spiritual experience. A good portion of the traditional Latin Mass at this SSPX church - the postures and gestures - was familiar from my young childhood recollections. But I was taken aback by the nearly complete silence on the part of the priest when saying the prayers of the mass.

Is this typical of a traditional Latin Mass? Does the priest normally offer the mass in an inaudible whisper? Or is he instead supposed to offer the mass in a low, but still audible, voice which the congregation can follow?

I had a Latin-English mass book in hand and expected to listen to the priest offer the Mass in Latin, while I read along joining in silent participation. With the near-total silence from the priest, what I actually found myself doing was reading the mass to myself, and hoping I wasn’t too far disconnected from whatever portion of the mass where the priest was at that moment. The opening prayers between the priest and the server were spoken in low, but still audible, murmer, which I followed fairly easily. After the opening prayers ended, however, nearly everything else was in an inaudible whisper. The scripture readings were proclaimed out loud in English, and the homily was also, of course. But everything else was almost completely silent.

Even though I had mass book in hand, it was difficult to make the connections and keep on track. Every now and then I saw the priest make a gesture or movement which indicated something was happening, or heard a murmered response from the server which helped me to jump ahead or back to the appropriate spot. The rest of the time I raced along in the mass book reading the prayers to myself, and somehow managed to end up on the page with the consecration prayers at about the same time the server rang the bell for the elevation of the Eucharist.

As I said, this was a less-than-enriching sprirtual experience. I felt like I was, unworthily, reciting the mass to God for myself, trying to keep pace with a priest who was saying the mass to God for himself, and surrounded by people who were completely isolated from each other. Except for the fact that the Eucharist was distributed (which I HAPPILY received on my knees), I might just as well have been reading the mass to myself while alone in a library.

I have attended the Novus Ordo Mass when presented in Latin and came away feeling inspired, challenged, enriched, and blessed. There is a sense of community at Novus Ordo Latin Masses, and I felt joined to the congregation and the whole church, as well as participating in a joining of the rich traditions of the church with the present and future.

That didn’t happen this particular Sunday. If the near-total silence by that priest is, indeed, typical of the way the traditional Latin Mass is supposed to be offered, I will have to say that I am disappointed. In that case, I will continue to seek out opportunities to attend the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin, but not the traditional Latin Mass.
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Latin Low Mass, technically, only the servers can hear the Priest at most time, and the Priest is the only one that can hear the servers, I however generally speak loud enough for the congregation to hear where we are in the Mass, and our Priest generally follows suits in those parts that are allowed to be spoken aloud, however there are parts of the Mass, that the priest speaks in an inaudible whisper even to us servers, and we wait for signs from the Priest to discern where he is.

However, if you can attend a dialogus Mass (where the congregation make the responses, not just the Server) or a Missa Cantata (Sung Mass) or a Solemn High Mass, the atmosphere will be different, however a weekday Mass is always likely to bea Low Mass (apart from certain days, such as Ash Wednesday, Corpus Christi etc, which may be a Missa Cantata, or a Solemn High Mass), and what you experience is generally what a Latin Low Mass is like, it’s very prayerful, and i probably enjoy it better then a weekday NO mass.

Fraternally in Christ
Skeptic92
 
Nan_S said:
Thanks. Easter Sunday 1941 with the mass prayers sung aloud. I will watch the video.

On my TLM CD (which is a Low Mass) and on the radio, of course, all the prayers offered by the priest are audible. I really don’t remember whether the prayers were offered silently or aloud in the church itself when I was a child. I DO remember forgetting my headdress one Sunday and having my mom pin a kleenex to my head!!!

I see what you both are saying: at the Low TLM you are supposed to silently pray the Mass prayers yourself, simultaneously with the priest who is also praying them silently. You’re right about me being disconnected because I am unfamiliar with the rubrics. Sigh. Unfortunately this church was one I encountered while traveling; there is no church offering the TLM where I live.

Yet it seems to me that there’s a much stronger sense of community if the priest prays in an audible tone, with the congregation joining in unision either silently or with a low voice. The words of spoken prayer demand attention; they can not be avoided unless you make a conscious effort to avoid them. Spoken prayer surrounds you, guides your thoughts, and permeates your being. That’s how we pray outside the mass, and that’s how we pray together as families. That unity in prayer was what I hoped for, but did not feel during the silent TLM.

At the end of the TLM I attended, the priest led the community in a selection of rosary prayers spoken aloud by both priest and congregation. I very much appreciated joining those prayers.

I used to hear comments about the ladies clinking their beads as they prayed rosaries while the priest was praying the TLM. Doing that didn’t make sense to me, and you almost never see that done at a Novus Ordo Mass. Sure, rosaries are reverent, but praying one during the Eucharistic Prayer leaves you disconnected with what is happening at the altar. Now I understand a bit: if you don’t know the mass prayers, or have trouble following the mass, or feel unworthy to silently pray the actual mass prayers yourself, you might pray a rosary instead.
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Sorry I didn’t respond sooner. Don’t say the Rosary at Mass! You should learn the rubrics and pray the Mass.
 
Silence is one of the good things about it. You can pray, interiorly, easily. The mass is primarily directed at God, also. It’s not a defect if we can’t hear all of it.

Imagine, a big echoing church, with people kneeling, trying not to make a noise. Makes a change from just about every other public gathering in modern life. Quite affecting.
 
James224 said:
I disagree! We are to pray the Mass from the missal. Where in the rubrics does it say we are to say the Rosary during Mass?
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OK. You made me think more on this one. I’ll correct myself and say, yes, it’s ok to say the rosary at the Latin Mass. I would say that it’s better to pray the Mass from the Missal if you are able. I think everyone should try and purchase a missal and pray along and try and learn the Mass but, if they aren’t capable, the rosary or some other prayers would be acceptable.
 
James224 said:
OK. You made me think more on this one. I’ll correct myself and say, yes, it’s ok to say the rosary at the Latin Mass. I would say that it’s better to pray the Mass from the Missal if you are able. I think everyone should try and purchase a missal and pray along and try and learn the Mass but, if they aren’t capable, the rosary or some other prayers would be acceptable.
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No. It was more correct the first time. We are, as MarkThompson said, to pray the Mass, not pray at Mass.

And why at a “Latin Mass” (and by that I presume you mean the EF), and not at an OF vernacular Mass?
 
malphono said:
No. It was more correct the first time. We are, as MarkThompson said, to pray the Mass, not pray at Mass.

And why at a “Latin Mass” (and by that I presume you mean the EF), and not at an OF vernacular Mass?
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I agree except for those who don’t have the ability to learn the Mass. I say the EF because I remember reading that before Vatican II, one of the big arguments that brought about the changes in the Liturgy was that the laity weren’t using their missals. Of course, it seems that the Rosary shouldn’t be said during the OF either. It seems also that it would be harder to do at the OF.
 
James224 said:
I agree except for those who don’t have the ability to learn the Mass. I say the EF because I remember reading that before Vatican II, one of the big arguments that brought about the changes in the Liturgy was that the laity weren’t using their missals. Of course, it seems that the Rosary shouldn’t be said during the OF either. It seems also that it would be harder to do at the OF.
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In the Time of Trident less that 5% of the population was able to read.
Until about 1900 more than half of the people could not read even in the technically developed countries. Follow the Mass from missal was not possible.

Even now it is very hard to follow mass from hand missal. If you read meditating, you are slow, if you read as you read the news you are fast. Above that : without checking in the internet, who know who were Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian, … Marcellíno, Petro, and who knows why these and not others? Interestingly the women are better known Felicitáte, Perpétua, Agatha, Lúcia, Agnéte, Cæcília, but who knows who was Anastásia,

The traditional resolution was the rosary, and the faith that our presence connect us with Christ, not the impossible understanding. The mass was and is mystery = something beyound our understanding
 
Even now it is very hard to follow mass from hand missal. If you read meditating, you are slow, if you read as you read the news you are fast. Above that : without checking in the internet, who know who were Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian, … Marcellíno, Petro, and who knows why these and not others? Interestingly the women are better known Felicitáte, Perpétua, Agatha, Lúcia, Agnéte, Cæcília, but who knows who was Anastásia,
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They still have those names in the OF EP1. Why are they so difficult to follow in the hand missal, or in the missalette for that matter? Seems as if you almost have to.
 
ProVobis said:
They still have those names in the OF EP1. Why are they so difficult to follow in the hand missal, or in the missalette for that matter? Seems as if you almost have to.
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The Saints’ names in the new rite are optional for the Roman Canon too (since 1967)

In my wording ‘follow’ means to understand the words, in case of names to know who they are. I recite the Breviary and since except Sixtus and Anastasia each have hagiography, I know who they are, but before that these names were just names w/o any understanding, as it is - I believe, - for the majority of the people.
 
The Saints’ names in the new rite are optional for the Roman Canon too (since 1967)
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In my wording ‘follow’ means to understand the words, in case of names to know who they are. I recite the Breviary and since except Sixtus and Anastasia each have hagiography, I know who they are, but before that these names were just names w/o any understanding, as it is - I believe, - for the majority of the people.
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I understand what you’re saying. But I think you’re missing the point of the canon when you start doing biographies on each name mentioned during Mass. It’s commendable that you do, don’t get me wrong, but part of faith (not the Deposit of Faith) requires that you accept those names as being valid representatives of the population of “nobis quoque peccatoribus,” the focal point of the prayer.
 
I agree with James. I don’t think you should give up on the Traditional Mass, especially if you loved it growing up. Of course it will sound quiet after a NO Mass, I think that’s to be expected. (I grew up in the Traditional Latin Mass, so NO seems loud and disruptive to me).

The solemnity of the low Latin Mass is peaceful and reverent. It allows you to sufficiently reflect on the Mass and forces you to pay closer attention. A Latin/ English missal is important, but so is watching the priest. Didn’t your missal have notations telling you what the priest was doing and when? Like how he turns to the congregation for the Orate Fratres? Also, not all priests are so hard to hear—yes, they are quieter, but often, especially if you sit up close, you can hear some of the beginning prayers in Latin. And once you are more familiar with the Mass it will be easier to follow along. Patience is a virtue 😉
 
Recently I came across my Nan’s rosary in a keepsake box (I didn’t even remember it being there). It was a curious mix of white beads, pink beads and beads which were white/pink. What was odd is that the beads were completely random with no pattern.

The first time I prayed it I noticed 5 beads with traces of black on them. I knew instantly what the black was but needed to examine the white and pink beads with a jeweller’s eye glass to discover what they were.

It turns out the black is the black lacquer which the beads were coated with - a ‘normal’ black rosary. The white was the resin the beads were made of and the pink was the primincostar on which the lacquer was painted. So before she died, she’d not only worn away the entire lacquered surface but was half way through the priming coat.

This was the reality of the Latin Mass for thousands of devout Catholics who were totally disengaged from what the priest was doing as they couldn’t understand it or hear him. They spent the Mass carrying out their own private devotions as best they could as they waited to receive Communion.

Almost reminiscent of Mediaeval England where people’s involvement in was was to wait for the elevation of the Host and then rush off to the next church hoping to witness another elevation! 😦
 
Frankk said:
Recently I came across my Nan’s rosary in a keepsake box (I didn’t even remember it being there). It was a curious mix of white beads, pink beads and beads which were white/pink. What was odd is that the beads were completely random with no pattern.

The first time I prayed it I noticed 5 beads with traces of black on them. I knew instantly what the black was but needed to examine the white and pink beads with a jeweller’s eye glass to discover what they were.

It turns out the black is the black lacquer which the beads were coated with - a ‘normal’ black rosary. The white was the resin the beads were made of and the pink was the primincostar on which the lacquer was painted. So before she died, she’d not only worn away the entire lacquered surface but was half way through the priming coat.

This was the reality of the Latin Mass for thousands of devout Catholics who were totally disengaged from what the priest was doing as they couldn’t understand it or hear him. They spent the Mass carrying out their own private devotions as best they could as they waited to receive Communion.

Almost reminiscent of Mediaeval England where people’s involvement in was was to wait for the elevation of the Host and then rush off to the next church hoping to witness another elevation! 😦
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I can only assume from your post that you are saying she only prayed the Rosary at Mass and that such praying accounted for the wearing away of the paint.

Of course, it could also be that she, as do many even today, prayed her Rosary at home, daily, or while on a trip, or even walking down the street.

So to try to say that the faded beads were due to her praying it at Mass seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Did people pray the Rosary during Mass pre Vatican II? Yes some did. Some did not. Some paid attention, some did not. Some participated quite fully, others did not.

Sounds kind of like today.
 
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