Simcha Fisher on male-female friendship

[Norseman82]

Would you be ok with that person asking the partner who wants a virgin to “go in peace”?

If you are saying that the nonvirgin is breaking up with the virgin over the issue? I don’t read about that happening often except when the nonvirgin believes in premarital sex, in which case the virgin “dodged a bullet”.

 

[Xantippe]

You seem to have a very low opinion of men.

I was just being realistic.

I was very young, and at the time I had the hockey theory of sex and dating that I’ve explained elsewhere, where it was the girl’s or the woman’s job to be chaste, with the expectation that the man might have been landing some shots earlier with somebody else, but that the woman’s reward for being a good goalie would be lawful matrimony.

It wasn’t a very good theory.

 

[DarkLight]

If it’s in the spirit of “we’re not compatible, let’s wish each other the best in our search for a compatible spouse”,then a wholehearted yes!

I would think that if a man found he was not compatible with a non-virgin woman, yes, he could say that.

At the same time, a man who did that might be asked to examine why he wanted a virgin woman, remembering that only one man ever got the privilege of marrying a sinless woman. (And he didn’t have sex with her.)

 

[Norseman82]

would think that if a man found he was not compatible with a non-virgin woman, yes, he could say that.

At the same time, a man who did that might be asked to examine why he wanted a virgin woman, remembering that only one man ever got the privilege of marrying a sinless woman. (And he didn’t have sex with her.)

I reread your post and realized I misinterpreted it, so I edited my reply.

 

[DarkLight]

I think your first interpretation was correct. That both are virgins does not mean one necessarily wants that to be a deciding issue. So I do mean a virgin breaking up with another virgin, because they do not like the focus on virginity as a deciding factor. That’s what I’d do.

 

[Norseman82]

I was just being realistic.

I was very young, and at the time I had the hockey theory of sex and dating that I’ve explained elsewhere, where it was the girl’s or the woman’s job to be chaste, with the expectation that the man might have been landing some shots earlier with somebody else, but that the woman’s reward for being a good goalie would be lawful matrimony.

It wasn’t a very good theory.

Well, one of the major stats for a goalie is the “goals allowed”. And a goalie who has a “shutout” is celebrated.

(Captain of an amateur men’s league hockey team here…)

 

[Norseman82]

I think your first interpretation was correct. That both are virgins does not mean one necessarily wants that to be a deciding issue. So I do mean a virgin breaking up with another virgin, because they do not like the focus on virginity as a deciding factor. That’s what I’d do.

To be perfectly honest, I think that shows a lack of “looking out for one’s own kind”.

 

[DarkLight]

To be perfectly honest, I think that shows a lack of “looking out for one’s own kind”.

I consider my kind to be faithful Catholics who are currently striving to follow the teaching of the Church, not virgins. I would want a partner to see it the same way.

After all, we’re both marrying sinners.

 

[Xantippe]

I think your first interpretation was correct. That both are virgins does not mean one necessarily wants that to be a deciding issue. So I do mean a virgin breaking up with another virgin, because they do not like the focus on virginity as a deciding factor. That’s what I’d do.

Yes, now that I’m older, that’s how I feel about it.

Now that I know how much sexual abuse and rape there is, I’m grossed out by men who hold non-virginity against women.

As I’ve mentioned before, there’s a long, ugly history of inter-generational incest in one branch of my extended family (fortunately not the one I grew up in). At least 5 girls in my extended family were molested as children and I had what I now realize was a very close call with the person responsible (I have a memory from when I was around 5 of him turning up for no good reason and watching me in the bath). As Dorothy Cummings McLean points out, “That someone is a “physical” virgin–which is to say, has never experienced sexual intercourse–on his or her wedding day may be as much a sign of his or her very good fortune as it is of his or her conscious chastity.”

Virginity Obsessions

Advisory notice : hymen chat. I hate stories like this. There are two abiding myths about reproduction that have made countless numbers...

thehistoricalhouse.blogspot.com

 

[Xantippe]

I consider my kind to be faithful Catholics who are currently striving to follow the teaching of the Church, not virgins. I would want a partner to see it the same way.

Also, there are a lot of other compatibility issues involved.

Being a long-married lady, I can say that there are dozens if not hundreds of things to get into a serious argument with your spouse about that don’t involve sex at all.

People who think that being a virgin marrying a virgin is going to make everything easy are in for some surprises.

 

[DarkLight]

There is also the realization that there’s a certain accident of opportunity. There are times in my life where I did not hold to church teaching on morality (I had rejected evangelicalism but was not yet catholic). I recognize that part of why I retained my virginity was, to put it bluntly, lack of a desirable opportunity. I thank God for sparing me the consequences, but I don’t hold myself superior to someone else for it.

 

[DarkLight]

Oh yes. Personally, I would put control of temper at the top of the list, followed closely by financial discipline.

 

[Xantippe]

I’d add shared standards about personal hygiene and housekeeping.

Here’s another quote from DCM:

“That you never had sex with anyone else before you got married may be a wonderful testimony to your obedience to God, but it is not in itself a golden ticket to a happy marriage. In fact, the young marriage will have to cope with the strain of one or both people’s sexual initiation and that is not always pleasant.”

True fact–many brides who have been “good” struggle with vaginismus.

https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2016/01/vaginismus-what-i-wish-i-had-known/

Norseman will probably want to skip that one, but the tldr is that sometimes couples discover that sex is painful and/or actually impossible. This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for anybody who bought the popular propaganda that says that waiting for marriage is rewarded with an amazing wedding night. Not so!

 

[ATraveller]

If a virgin has no hope/possibility of marrying a fellow virgin - in fact, if he/she is criticized and mocked for it - what is his/her motivation for staying a virgin until marriage?

If one is a Christian, then the reason is because we are to obey God’s commands. I was taught that waiting for marriage is not about preventing STDs. It’s not even about sharing a special moment exclusively with your spouse, though that is a benefit. The real reason is it’s all about glorifying God in honouring His original design for sexuality.

Yes I have, and the people who are saying that are wrong.

Yes and no. I remember a couple at one of those waiting-for-marriage talks mentioned how they struggled with ‘past memories’.

A Christian need not listen very much to non-Christians.

Unfortunately, many do. It’s easier said than done. It does hurt.

I’m grossed out by men who hold non-virginity against women.

To be fair, some women do that too but with men.

True fact–many brides who have been “good” struggle with vaginismus.

Possible but I hate how it’s always used to ridicule/scare those who are willing to wait. I’m not accusing you of that. Unfortunately, anecdotes can distort perceptions.

This is an especially bitter pill to swallow for anybody who bought the popular propaganda that says that waiting for marriage is rewarded with an amazing wedding night. Not so!

Luckily that’s being phased out. It’s practically selling abstinence with sex!

 

[DarkLight]

Yes and no. I remember a couple at one of those waiting-for-marriage talks mentioned how they struggled with ‘past memories’.

I mean - every sin we commit, is something that has consequences that we have to live with. I’m not going to claim it’s consequence free. Just that it’s not some sort of permanent sentence.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes and no. I remember a couple at one of those waiting-for-marriage talks mentioned how they struggled with ‘past memories’.

To some extent, that can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Xantippe]

Possible but I hate how it’s always used to ridicule/scare those who are willing to wait. I’m not accusing you of that. Unfortunately, anecdotes can distort perceptions.

It’s not “always used to ridicule/scare those who are willing to wait.” The blog I cited is from an Evangelical lady, she had it, and a number of her readers had it.

And (sorry for the TMI), but I believe I had it too. (It resolved within a few days, but it’s not a fun experience to spend several days not knowing if you’re ever going to have a valid marriage.)

It’s really important for the non-sexually active to realize that that’s a possibility, and to have a working relationship with an OB/GYN before getting married, and most of all, to can the gauzy 80s/90s abstinence talk expectations about how special their wedding night is going to be if they wait.

 

[Xantippe]

To be fair, some women do that too but with men.

Yeah. Some of that is organic to the situation (natural jealousy), but I think some of it is the product of abstinence talks or abstinence teaching that goes overboard, basically any abstinence teaching that make it sound like there’s an eternal bond between any two people who have sex, that anybody who has non-marital sex is wrecked forever, etc.

A lot of this stuff is said in order to keep the young people on the straight and narrow, but here are some problems:

–The eternal bond idea encourages young people to keep throwing good money after bad into a sinful relationship that can never produce a solid marriage–it makes them give up hope that they can do better, even when they obviously can and makes them believe that their sinful relationship is their only shot at marriage.
–Some of these ideas are self-fulfilling prophecies (you will always be thinking about the other people!)
–There’s a high likelihood that even a very chaste young person is going to wind up married to a person with a past–under the circumstances, it’s best that the person with the better “permanent record” have faith in their ability to have a good marriage. In fact, it’s best that both have faith in their ability to have a good marriage.

 

[Xantippe]

–The eternal bond idea encourages young people to keep throwing good money after bad into a sinful relationship that can never produce a solid marriage–it makes them give up hope that they can do better, even when they obviously can and makes them believe that their sinful relationship is their only shot at marriage.

Apologies for quoting myself!

I wanted to go back and add that experiencing a bond with a partner in a sinful relationship is a thing…but that telling people that sex creates a permanent emotional bond could be a self-fulfilling prophecy that will keep them from trying to escape a sinful or harmful relationship. It’s important to be able to tell those people–yes, you can get out of a sinful relationship with a selfish and/or unsuitable person, you can hope to marry a better person if you become a better person, and you can have a good life. Your entire happiness is not necessarily going to be spoiled by mistakes you made in your teens or as a young adult if you stop now and start making better choices.

That’s my chastity talk.