Similarity between our Mass and an Anglican Service

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In the modern translations “And with thy/your spirit” was used. It was the ICEL who first promulgated “And also with you” which was soon adopted by all the western churches (though Anglicans always retained “And with thy spirit” in its traditional language liturgies - which are still popular even where the modern “shape” is used.
I was reading somewhere that the Anglicans worked with the ICEL on that part. The committee tried to make it “May the spirit of the Lord be with you/And also with you” which would not have been a literal translation but it might have conveyed the overall meaning from the Latin better. Before the final release, however, the priest’s part remained unchanged, perhaps persuaded by the Anglicans, but left the revised response, which both Catholics and the Anglicans (and Lutherans) used until a couple of years ago.
 
I was reading somewhere that the Anglicans worked with the ICEL on that part. The committee tried to make it “May the spirit of the Lord be with you/And also with you” which would not have been a literal translation but it might have conveyed the overall meaning from the Latin better. Before the final release, however, the priest’s part remained unchanged, perhaps persuaded by the Anglicans, but left the revised response, which both Catholics and the Anglicans (and Lutherans) used until a couple of years ago.
Hello my friend. I also read that there was a pond difference - before the ICEL involvement each country had its own translation: the one for England and Wales used the more traditional language whereas the US one had most of the modern texts that were later adopted through the ICEL’s work across all English-speaking countries.
 
Oh I see. Actually, do cosmetic differences between a High Church Anglican Service and a Roman Catholic Mass (OF) have any profound effect on theological perception and sense of belonging to the Church?

In particular, I would like to know what does it mean by ‘different colours’. Does this phrase refer to the diversity of coloured vestments in the Anglican Church as compared to Roman Catholic Church? Anyone who is knowledgeable on the colour differences of vestments of the ordained?
Vestments and Altar Linen and Pulpitt sleeve, I think might be subtly different to you guys. And this was only really brought to me attention when the current priest did announce to anyone in the vestry who was listening - I think mainly me as I had been open with him about not wanting the Missal etc that he is now wearing anglican colours. In our old ASB book it used to give us all the colours to each service but I think whilst it may be online it mayn’t be in the new anglican books like used to be. Green is general and Gold is Easter and Red is for Rememberance Sunday and Purple for Lent and funerals (mourning) and something else and I think they are the main colours we have and I absolutely love our Deacons deep green sash colour. Its deep and rich and so georgeous and almost signed up on the spot to become a Deacon to wear that- only joking there but such a lovely deep green.
 
Liturgical colours will be largely the same. (White, red, green and violet). There may be some variations following Old English tradition. For example, in Advent, some churches use Sarum Blue and during Lent, Lenten Array or Lenten White might be employed. Lenten Array/Lenten White is an off-white linen which may have symbols of the Passion embroidered in red. It’s hung up in time for Ash Wednesday. If Lenten Array is used, statues and pictures should also be veiled in the same material. In Passiontide, a dull crimson or oxblood might be used for Altar frontals and vestments with the Orphreys in black. Yellow vestments might be used for Saints that are confessors and matrons. There may be a festal set of vestments/frontals which would be made of the very best materials and richly embroidered in gold.

There can be local variation.

Pic of Sarum Blue:

farm3.static.flickr.com/2152/2226775454_1ce8485e54.jpg

Pic of Lenten Array:

farm1.static.flickr.com/185/410384353_b1eb1a9573.jpg

T
Ps we don’t have blue at all in our church. Our choir gowns are blue but none of the vestments and linen etc are blue. that one difference
 
Hello my friend. I also read that there was a **pond difference **- before the ICEL involvement each country had its own translation: the one for England and Wales used the more traditional language whereas the US one had most of the modern texts that were later adopted through the ICEL’s work across all English-speaking countries.
Indeed there are. I have first-hand information on those differences - and they extend beyond the liturgy. 🙂
 
Since Anglicanism was founded by simply replacing the Pope with Henry the VIII, wouldn’t it make sense that the liturgies stayed the same?

Of course there is a very big difference since they do not have a valid Eucharist and don’t have Apostolic Succession, so it may look the same, but is very different.
This is very interesting to find this thread as I was going to ask the question if the Anglican church will change their translation (i.e., “and, also with you”) to the new translation (i.e., “and, with your spirit”) of the Roman Catholic Church?

Also, does anyone know what other “protestant” churches that practice a traditional liturgical prayer service use the “old” translation of the Roman Catholic Church and while I’m at it did the Eastern Rites change their translations to conform with the Western Rite?

And, if this has been asked already and answered just provide the post # or other forum where this has been addressed. Thanks for the information.
 
This is very interesting to find this thread as I was going to ask the question if the Anglican church will change their translation (i.e., “and, also with you”) to the new translation (i.e., “and, with your spirit”) of the Roman Catholic Church?
FWIW, the Anglicans were the original users of the “and with thy spirit” language.
 
Since Anglicanism was founded by simply replacing the Pope with Henry the VIII, wouldn’t it make sense that the liturgies stayed the same?

Of course there is a very big difference since they do not have a valid Eucharist and don’t have Apostolic Succession, so it may look the same, but is very different.
I think his point is that the two look very similar, which is correct.
 
The few Anglican services I attended were very well done. Better than most Catholic parishes. Knelling during the confiteor, ad orientem, Communion at the rail, and a better hymnal. They also had a communal post-communion prayer that I think is something Catholics should standardize too. Currently, the GIRM allows for a communal post-communion hymn. Why not get everyone to sing an Anima Christi or something at that point?

A little history: The liturgy is similar, less because non-Catholics maintained Catholic traditions and more because of the liturgical movement at the turn of the 20th century. It brought non-Catholic services, closer to the Catholic liturgy. In addition, after Vatican II, there was an attempt at ecumenical translations. ICEL participated in that. For our latest translation, ICEL withdrew from this ecumenical effort. However, I suspect that the “pull” from the Catholic Church is so strong even without formal cooperation that other denominations will end up adopting our new translation, at least in part.

As for commonality being a concern, I take the opposite view. Anglican churches are empty. If you’re an Anglican looking for authenticity, you’d be tempted by the Catholic Church. If you’re a Catholic looking for authenticity, the Anglican church doesn’t have the same appeal. If you don’t care about authenticity, then none of this matters to you. At the Anglican services, I attended, some were clearly recent Catholic converts. Out of habit, they were giving the Catholic responses. But we’re talking a handful of people. There are more Catholics at your local parish than Anglicans at their cathedrals.
 
Dear friends, and especially anonymous1995,

I was a convert to Anglicanism in January of this year. Having experienced many of its pitfalls, politics, and strange ways of approaching Christianity, I was allowed to come back to Rome in May. My experience over 5 months was very interesting…

Firstly, we must make sure to distinguish which Anglicans we’re talking about. There are four broad sorts:
  1. “Classical”, active from 1560-1830, mostly gone by the 1900 -certainly by 1960.
  2. Evangelical, often called “Low Church”
  3. Anglo-Catholic, often called “High Church”
  4. Liberal, often called “Broad Church”
Approaching them chronologically:

In the classical Anglican way, the average orthodox minister wore a cassock, long white surplice, and black, stole-like “tippet” scarf for all services. He celebrated the holy communion facing the north end of the table; that is, with his right side to the people, in profile. He celebrated all services only with the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, the sole approved liturgy of the Church of England (available in its entirety here). He believed strongly in authority, and in conformity to the Creeds, Articles, and Homilies prescribed by the Church of England. He never prayed to saints, never prayed for the repose of the dead, never lit candles except in necessity, never genuflected, and never used incense (with a few rare exceptions). He allowed images and paintings if they were high up in the church and could not be venerated. He basically considered himself a “Reformed Catholic”.

In the “Low Church” (1780s), the average minister wore whatever secular clothing he deemed most suitable and reverent. He took his cue from Baptists and other non-denominational ministers, who popularized secular attire before it was taken up by “Low Church” or Dissenting Anglicans in the 1700s & 1800s. His one authority was the Bible, not Creeds or Articles. He was the “liberal” of his day. If he used the official liturgy, he played with its structure - usually to add more hymns, or lay participation. He certainly never even contemplated prayer for the dead, intercessions from the saints, incense, or images of any kind. He considered himself Reformed or Protestant before anything else.

In the “High Church” (1830s), the average minister wore the same vestments as a Catholic priest of the day. He sought to conform everything to the Medieval ideal, as a good Romantic-era man might be expected to do. He adopted the Roman Missal, or interpolated the Roman Canon into the 1662 Communion rite. He added candles, incense, images, rood screens, and ad orientem worship. He invoked the saints, prayed for the dead, and was devoted to the Blessed Virgin.

In the “Broad Church” (1960s-1970s), anything goes. You can have liberal evangelicals and liberal "C"atholics. Their main distinguishing feature is theological and liturgical modernism. Chasubles, if used, are generally bright and gaudy or have cheesy images on them, since the Broad/Liberal Anglican has no compunction against images (so long as they are “nice”). Candles, incense, and other such things are par-for-the-course, if only to give them something formulaic to do for a sense of mystery (unless they’re evangelical).

It is important to make these distinctions. The BCP 1662 liturgy of Holy Communion was enforced very strictly across the country from 1560 to the 1870s, at least in England. Ritualism (the use of candles, lighting of incense, elevation of the bread & wine, etc.) was made illegal in civil law by the 1870s, though this was soon repealed as the Anglo-Catholics gained more support in society.

Classicists and conforming Evangelicals continued to use the 1662 BCP until the 1980s - by which point Classicism had basically died out, and Evangelicals & Liberals had switched to Common Worship (England), Book of Alternative Services (Canada), and the 1979 BCP (America). All of these were created in the 70s & 80s as Anglican responses to the Roman liturgical reform of the 60s and 70s. Anglo-Catholics remained mostly aloof, and continued to use their Anglican Missal, or a “medievalized” 1662 BCP (1928 BCP for Americans).

Roman Eucharistic Prayers and liturgical structure inspired the liberal Anglicans (for purely “ecumenical” reasons), not the other way around. Any resemblance of the Ordinary Form of Mass to modern Anglican liturgies is purely coincidental, not consequential. Also, we must remember that Cranmer (who invented and wrote almost the entire BCP) was a big researcher of the Church Fathers. He fashioned his liturgy from what he thought was most authentically patristic. This is the reason his Communion rite resembled the ancient pattern: confession, praise, epistle, Gospel, homily, offertory, consecration, communion. The Orthodox claim that the Catholic Mass is simply a derivative of their divine liturgy, for the same reasons.

I hope this helps… you are free to disregard it…
 
This is very interesting to find this thread as I was going to ask the question if the Anglican church will change their translation (i.e., “and, also with you”) to the new translation (i.e., “and, with your spirit”) of the Roman Catholic Church?

Also, does anyone know what other “protestant” churches that practice a traditional liturgical prayer service use the “old” translation of the Roman Catholic Church and while I’m at it did the Eastern Rites change their translations to conform with the Western Rite?

And, if this has been asked already and answered just provide the post # or other forum where this has been addressed. Thanks for the information.
It is up to each member church of the Anglican Communion as to which liturgical forms it uses. What the Anglican Church in Canada decides to do might be different from what the Church of England decides to do, just as what the Episcopal Church in the USA decides to do might be different from what the Church of New Zealand decides to do. Each province, as Anglicans call the church in each country, is completely independent of the others.

Since 1976, the Episcopal Church in the USA has had two rites available for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist. Rite One is the more traditionally-worded choice, whose features include the response And with thy spirit, and the language overall is a Tudor-style prose of the 17th century, with some modern interpolations thrown in. It is not identical to, but is more strongly reminiscent of, the previous editions of the Book of Common Prayer, including the 1928 American edition. Rite Two, on the other hand, is composed in a more contemporary idiom, and is more reminiscent of the former ICEL translation used until two years ago by the Catholic Church in English-speaking countries.

It is anyone’s guess as to whether the Episcopal Church (or other liturgical denominations, such as Lutherans, Methodists and Congregationalists) will revise their translations in the near or distant future. My guess is that they will not. I say this because unlike the earlier ICEL translations, which were produced in the very ecumenically-minded climate of the late sixties and early seventies, there is no longer a strong ecumenical impetus, or even much hope, that a great Christian unity will soon take place. There was no scholarly consultation of Protestant liturgists while the new translation was being made (quite the opposite, in fact, as the old ICEL members were replaced in the early 2000s with the group who eventually completed the current translations). Honestly, there has been some resentment that the Catholic Church made the new translation on its own, and I rather doubt that the Episcopal Church or anyone else is eager to move their liturgies into a more unambiguously Catholic direction, which is perceived as quite politically incorrect.
 
How is that confusing? The Anglicans used the translation in the 16th century and were, I believe, using it until 1970 or so when they (and the Lutherans) changed to “and also with you” language to conform with the Church. Catholics first used the “spirit” translation for a brief period in the 60’s. The Anglican Use, I believe, has been using the “and with your spirit” language all along.
 
It is anyone’s guess as to whether the Episcopal Church (or other liturgical denominations, such as Lutherans, Methodists and Congregationalists) will revise their translations in the near or distant future. My guess is that they will not. I say this because unlike the earlier ICEL translations, which were produced in the very ecumenically-minded climate of the late sixties and early seventies, there is no longer a strong ecumenical impetus, or even much hope, that a great Christian unity will soon take place. There was no scholarly consultation of Protestant liturgists while the new translation was being made (quite the opposite, in fact, as the old ICEL members were replaced in the early 2000s with the group who eventually completed the current translations). Honestly, there has been some resentment that the Catholic Church made the new translation on its own, and I rather doubt that the Episcopal Church or anyone else is eager to move their liturgies into a more unambiguously Catholic direction, which is perceived as quite politically incorrect.
Quite possible but my thought is that because the mainline Protestant denominations are in serious demographic decline, at least in the US, they’ll feel increased pressure to “Catholicize” their liturgies to cater to the large population of former Catholics. There will certainly be resistance so it won’t happen overnight but it would be a smart move. On the other hand, it would be too little too late. The future of Protestantism is evangelical. There’s little demand for anything in between.
 
Thanks for the informative discussion above! 🙂

According to my own experience of Anglican Service at my local parish, the ‘Canon’ (don’t know if this were the right term or not) of the Service appears to be substantially the same as our Eucharistic Prayer II. Could anyone who could kindly provide more details as to the theological differences and nuanced differences in wordings between a Catholic and an Anglican version?

I hope this would not be a repetition of what has been said. I have been off from Catholic Answers for more than a month. What a refreshment to feed my soul with something great on this forum after hectic days of studies! 👍
 
How is that confusing? The Anglicans used the translation in the 16th century and were, I believe, using it until 1970 or so when they (and the Lutherans) changed to “and also with you” language to conform with the Church. Catholics first used the “spirit” translation for a brief period in the 60’s. The Anglican Use, I believe, has been using the “and with your spirit” language all along.
It was confusing because the earlier post stated:
FWIW, the Anglicans were the original users of the “and with thy spirit” language.
Since the Catholic liturgy has from early centuries used Et cum spirito tuo, long before Anglicanism existed. Anglicans were not originators of the response; they simply translated in the 16th century what the Catholic Church had long used. That made your post confusing.
 
I think I might have posted something similar here, but I couldn’t find the thread I started. This is a new thread on the topic.

I deliberately choose to evade from the Traditional Catholicism forum where I may get biased responses.

Recently, I browsed through several webpages regarding the rubrics and meanings of a typical Anglican Service. To my surprise, I discovered striking similarities between our Ordinary Form of Mass and it. At least in terms of the general flow of rituals. The Eucharistic Prayer II of our Holy Mass is very close to the Eucharistic Prayer of an Anglican Service.

I am not here to insinuate any argument questioning the validity of our Holy Mass or whatsoever - in fact I am fed up with such endless clamors which bring about nothing but hatred and confrontation, for most debaters always get far-fetched in their discussions and later on the entire thread is messed up with emotional outbursts.

YET, this stunning similarity sounds an alarm to me. While it is inevitable that any Christian Eucharistic liturgies are established in accordance with the prototype of the Last Supper and integrated with the liturgical legacies from the Early Apostolic Age, depending on the degree of it, I am a bit worried about the loss of a unique Catholic identity in our Holy Mass.

By the loss of a unique Catholic identity, which will spark a vehement debate if not elucidated adequately, I DO NOT intend to go into issues like the use of Latin, Gregorian Chants, altar rails, altar architecture, Latin motets, the ‘ad orientem’ controversy, the existence of various Eucharistic Prayers instead of the Roman Canon only, translation problems, vestments of the ordained, altar boy/girl issue, etc. (I specify what is excluded first to avoid further disputes.) WHAT I FOCUS ON is the logistics of the Mass.

There are many missing traditional Mass parts which developed over centuries in our Ordinary Form of Mass. Asperges Me, while not an ordinary or mandatory session of a Mass, is now rarely seen. Prayers before the Altar are gone. The part from Suscipe Sancte Pater up to the Lavabo is greatly abridged. Some Psalms are missing. Eucharistic Prayer II, the one commonly used in my parish for every Sunday and weekday Mass, fails to express EXPLICITLY AND ELEGANTLY the theology of the Holy Mass as a Sacrifice as well as the Communion of Saints. To me, this is a great loss, the loss of the very precious gemstone our Holy Mother Church has cherished and passed on for centuries.

NEVER take me to be a sedevacantist, a schismatic or other titles labelling me as a rebel. I NEVER criticise the intention or validity of the Vatican II Council and Pope Paul VI’s Reform. The only thing is that our liturgy really needs some reform of the reform, one that can imbibe our liturgy with a bit more of the traditional elements. I really truly hope that for our Eucharistic Prayer, the wordings can be embellished and Nature of Sacrifice and Communion of Saints mentioned more explicitly, which can already very much distinguish our Holy Mass from any Anglican Service.

Any idea? Objection? Suggestion?

By the way, someone contended that the Eucharistic Prayer II is supposed to have its origin in a Eucharistic Prayer written by St. Hippolytus of Rome, who in a period was deemed schismatic and thus the intention of the prayer is very much of question.

There is little counter-arguments for this apparently ‘traditionalist’ attack. My first doubt is: why would Rome canonize him as a martyred saint if he were under suspicion of aberrance? Now, if he has been recognised by both Rome as a saint, then it is assumed that his writings are compatible with the orthodox teachings of the Church, so there should not be serious query into the validity of the EP II. Moreover, to me, as far as the language in the Eucharistic Prayer he wrote is in line with the Catholic faith, I don’t see why a surmised ‘wicked intention’ of a saint will quiver the Sacrament’s validity.

Having said that, I think that the Eucharistic Prayer II should still need slight modifications regarding the translations. I can’t tell why, but I feel that it lacks some sort of embellishment.

N.B. I am not polished in English since I’m not a native speaker. I apologise for my handicapped communication if any of my thought is not so clearly laid out in this thread.
Actually they are no longer so close to each other. The Episcopal Book of Common Prayer was last revised in 1982. They still say “and also with you” instead of “and with your spirit”. Anglicans still have not caught up to the changes in the Mass.
 
Actually they are no longer so close to each other. The Episcopal Book of Common Prayer was last revised in 1982. They still say “and also with you” instead of “and with your spirit”. Anglicans still have not caught up to the changes in the Mass.
In the UK the traditional words are often used as the English translations have always retained a traditional language option through liturgical change which parishes could dretain. At ecumenical events with our Anglican neighbouring parish they always replied “And with thy spirit”. The Gloria they use too is like our new translation but IMO more elegantly worded.
 
Actually they are no longer so close to each other. The Episcopal Book of Common Prayer was last revised in 1982. They still say “and also with you” instead of “and with your spirit”. Anglicans still have not caught up to the changes in the Mass.
Actually, the BCP was last issued in 1979 (the hymnal was in 1982), and as I stated above, there are two options, one of which uses the traditional And with thy spirit and the other, which uses And also with you. Both are widely used.
 
Actually, the BCP was last issued in 1979 (the hymnal was in 1982), and as I stated above, there are two options, one of which uses the traditional And with thy spirit and the other, which uses And also with you. Both are widely used.
You got me, I had the years confused. Around here the celebrants and bishop have a very pronounced preference for Rite II, the and also with you wording.

If they use RITE I (and with thy spirit) it will be at the 8AM service only and sometimes at the penitential seasons, Lent and Advent.
 
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