Simon of Cyrene?

[patrick457]

I think orthodox Jews don’t WANT any DNA analysis done- the finding might have political implications.

I had my genome analyzed. I found out I am 2% European Jew, and less than 1% Middle Easterner.

So don’t call me an anti-Semite for saying the NT is correct in being tough on the Jews as persecutors of Jesus and the early Christians. I AM a Semite.

I still could be called a self-loathing Jew, however.

I take solace that I could be related to Jesus. But…I could also be related to Judas!

As an aside, I find it rather funny that many Americans (I’m assuming you’re American) usually give their ethnicities in the form of a math equation. Y’know, one’s ethnicity is determined by what your parents or ancestors are, and not so much the country you were born in.

 

[patrick457]

I think orthodox Jews don’t WANT any DNA analysis done- the finding might have political implications.

I had my genome analyzed. I found out I am 2% European Jew, and less than 1% Middle Easterner.

So don’t call me an anti-Semite for saying the NT is correct in being tough on the Jews as persecutors of Jesus and the early Christians. I AM a Semite.

I still could be called a self-loathing Jew, however.

I take solace that I could be related to Jesus. But…I could also be related to Judas!

I should add, I don’t think nobody who has done his homework would really deny that Jews were involved in Jesus’ death or the persecution of Christians*. (If you go down the line - the 2nd century onwards - you’ll see a lot of mudslinging and loads of virulent rhetoric on both sides.)

What’s incorrect is to blame “the Jews” (as in, all the Jews worldwide, as a group, as a nation, as a whole) for things like the death of Jesus or the persecution of Christians. I mean, is the diaspora Jew living in a small village in rural Egypt or in some town in Iran going to be responsible for what Jewish priests in Palestine did miles away? I mean, it’s the same thing as thinking all white Americans are arrogant racists just because there are white Americans that are. It’s an over-generalization.

• And you have to keep in mind: the separation between Jews and Christians had yet to come, so what you have was essentially an intra-Judaism issue: Jewish authorities cracking down on a sect within Judaism.

 

[patrick457]

I should add, I don’t think nobody who has done his homework would really deny that Jews were involved in Jesus’ death or the persecution of Christians*. (If you go down the line - the 2nd century onwards - you’ll see a lot of mudslinging and loads of virulent rhetoric on both sides.)

Don’t you just hate it when you type in the wrong word? I mean “I don’t think anybody who has done his homework.”

 

[steve53]

Didn’t even notice it. In America, we are used to the routine butchering of the English language. It’s called embracing diversity.

 

[steve53]

I should add, I don’t think nobody who has done his homework would really deny that Jews were involved in Jesus’ death or the persecution of Christians*. (If you go down the line - the 2nd century onwards - you’ll see a lot of mudslinging and loads of virulent rhetoric on both sides.)

What’s incorrect is to blame “the Jews” (as in, all the Jews worldwide, as a group, as a nation, as a whole) for things like the death of Jesus or the persecution of Christians. I mean, is the diaspora Jew living in a small village in rural Egypt or in some town in Iran going to be responsible for what Jewish priests in Palestine did miles away? I mean, it’s the same thing as thinking all white Americans are arrogant racists just because there are white Americans that are. It’s an over-generalization.

• And you have to keep in mind: the separation between Jews and Christians had yet to come, so what you have was essentially an intra-Judaism issue: Jewish authorities cracking down on a sect within Judaism.

I disagree on your statement about the Jews. If the subject comes up, I think most people accept that the Romans were the driving force behind the killing of Jesus and the persecutions of the early Christians and the Jews were given a bad rap.

Just my gestalt.

A political conspiracy to minimize the Jews involvement? Well, let me just challenge you to find a source other than Hagan where it is pointed out that a former High Priest of the Second Temple was in Rome and a part of the Inner Circle when Nero began his persecutions against the Christians- with reasonable speculations made.

Just one.

If you can, I would be surprised.

Ismael’s actions are facts, not rhetoric- as my previous post goes into.

And as an aside, I resent your insinuation about my country. I hope the rest of the world doesn’t think America is racist because of Trump and wanting to temporarily close the borders to Muslims. An American born Muslim was radicalized and executed a dozen people, and there are other instances like this not as bad. With ISIS gaining power and their avowed purpose the destruction of America and Christians we are justly concerned with personal safety.

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[patrick457]

I disagree on your statement about the Jews. If the subject comes up, I think most people accept that the Romans were the driving force behind the killing of Jesus and the persecutions of the early Christians and the Jews were given a bad rap.

Just my gestalt.

A political conspiracy to minimize the Jews involvement? Well, let me just challenge you to find a source other than Hagan where it is pointed out that a former High Priest of the Second Temple was in Rome and a part of the Inner Circle when Nero began his persecutions against the Christians- with reasonable speculations made.

Just one.

If you can, I would be surprised.

Ismael’s actions are facts, not rhetoric- as my previous post goes into.

Steve, I don’t think we really talking about the same thing here.

You’re stopping at the mid-1st century. I was going beyond that.

Ever seen those Early Christian adversus Iudaeos (‘Against the Jews’) literature or the Talmudic Toledot Yeshu? Ever seen that report about ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel blocking Christians access to King David’s Tomb (which ironically, was originally a Christian site before it was identified as the tomb of David in the Middle Ages - by Crusaders)?

And as an aside, I resent your insinuation about my country. I hope the rest of the world doesn’t think America is racist because of Trump and wanting to temporarily close the borders to Muslims. An American born Muslim was radicalized and executed a dozen people, and there are other instances like this not as bad. With ISIS gaining power and their avowed purpose the destruction of America and Christians we are justly concerned with personal safety.

Any suggestions appreciated.

I never mentioned Trump - although to be honest I do think he’s a bit of a (pardon the term) nutcase.

What I’m saying was one shouldn’t be ascribing the sins of a few to the people as a whole. Again, to be frank I do have a bit of a bias against the US (mostly for certain historical reasons - although yeah, a few modern-day folks do figure into this), but I know it’s stupid to condemn all Americans for something some people who happened to be American did. To state something obvious, just because the Ku Klux Klan existed/exists doesn’t mean white people are a race of devils or something.

 

[steve53]

You miss my point- and Trump is a great man and will be President, so get used to him.

Here is the point- Christian scholars and those so motivated to do research start the with Gospels and the NT and fill in the rest from other historical sources as they see fit. The NT is chock full of events and stories that indict the Jews- all classes- for their actions against Jesus and the Christians.

These Christian-based writers don’t NEED to go into details on the nuances of that period that can be derived from the works of Josephus. They have all they need in the NT. And no doubt through history- early history especially, there were anti-semetic riots and purges and the rest. Inexcusable, but they happened.

Now, if you are a Jewish scholar, you are going to be understandably defensive about the whole thing and search out every available source to counter the accusations that are found in the NT. Josephus is by far the best and in many ways the only source for that period, but also the Talmud has some bearing on the history of the first century A.D.

It is safe to assume that the Jewish scholars, parsing through Josephus, could not help but realize that a Second Temple High Priest resigned his position (!!) and went to Rome to be at the beck and call of Nero’s wife Poppea around the time of the Christian persecutions. It’s right there in black and white.

Now, as a Jewish scholar, are you going to publicize that? Are you going to suggest a connection between the persecution of the Christians and the influence of a Jewish High Priest?

Well, the correct answer is that academics are above politics and the connection should be brought out. But, in fact, if there is has been Jewish scholar who has pointed this out- ever- then I am not aware of it. Unless Hagan is Jewish. So I am indicting the Jewish establishment here.

You might find otherwise.